Physical Healing in the Atonement (PHIA)

[ARBITER01]

I think people missed this,...

Healing was always a part of GOD. Prophets in the OT healed people through the same gifts that Jesus operated in and we are suppose to operate in.

Healing didn't just happen because Jesus rose from the grave, it's always been around, it was just limited to the prophets in the OT, but not anymore thanks to GOD.

 

[Merlin]

I am sure you have no answers when there were Christians who died without being physically healed.

Sad, isn't it.
But then, people die in their sins too.
Healing, like salvation is not forced on people.

 

[Merlin]

it was just limited to the prophets in the OT, but not anymore thanks to GOD.

Can you help me out?
what book, chapter states it was limited to only
prophets?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Sad, isn't it.
But then, people die in their sins too.
Healing, like salvation is not forced on people.

Yepperz. Jesus kinda casually mentioned that in John 8 I think.

John 8:23And He said to them, "Ye out of the below are, I out of the above am. Ye out of this, the world, are. I not am out of the world, this.
24I said then to ye, that ye shall be dying in the sins of ye, for if-ever no ye should be believing that I am, ye shall be dying in the sins of ye.' [Deut 28:13]

 

[Merlin]

Because if anyone has enough faith unto salvation clearly they have enough to be healed?

who says?

 

[spiritman]

Hafta ask God that, because He gave the same answer.


You mean it can't be what God said, because he was only
repeating what He'd heard Jesus said.

..and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.
19 He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation,
how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you?
bring him unto me.

And you know, if you just read this one account, it explains
several things. For one thing, Jesus said the man who was
deaf and mute could only be healed (delivered) by prayer
and fasting. Maybe that's why some arent healed?
And as we see above, He did call them faithless. I also
thought it was interesting that the deaf and mute man's
condition was attributed to an evil spirit. A house divided
against itself cannot stand. The evil spirit was the cause of
the infirmity, and the faith was the remedy (according to
Jesus anyhow).. Here's the story so you can check :

17 And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit; 18 And wheresoever he taketh him, he tearethb him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not. 19 He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me. 20 And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming. 21 And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child. 22 And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us. 23 † Jesus said unto him,
If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.


24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. 25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him. 26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead. 27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose. 28 And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out? 29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.







But you didnt address the passages that he posted.
That's what you ought to search, God's Words to us.
God's the one who caused it to be said that:

15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick,
and the Lord shall raise him up...





It's not spirit man's system.
God's the one who said anything is possible ... but
HE added the condition "to him who believes".

And besides, I think it's such a small thing to ask,
that we believe. Do I have the faith needed for
healings? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If I LACK
that faith needed, what should I do?

Jesus didnt feel it was unmerciful to tell them to their
face that it was their total lack that caused their lack
of success with the different cases they were called on
to heal/deliver.
He told them face to face, Hey, you're faithless and perverse.
Jesus is love, and those were His words.
Would He say the same thing to us?

Nice work. I couldn't do it better.
You have wisdom and revelation knowledge.

Blessings

 

[simonthezealot]

who says?

Is not the greatest gift and miracle the salvation/eternal life of a no-good sinner?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

who says?

Well, Zech 8:23 comes to mine

Zechariah 8:23 Thus sayeth YHWH-of Hosts: in-Days, the-those, which they-shall-take-firm-hold a-hem/wing, Ten Mortals/582 'enowsh, from-all Tongues-of the-Nations.
And-They-take-fast/hold in-hem-of a-Man/0376 'iysh, a-Judean/Y@huwdiy, to-say 'We-are-going with-Thee that We-hear Elohiym with-Thee'. [Mark 6:56]

Mark 6:56 And the-where ever He into-journeyed into villages, the cities, the fields/hamlets, in the market-places, they place the ones being sick and they beside-called Him that if-even the hang-foot of the garment of Him they should be touching, and as manysoever as touch of it, were healed [Zech 8:23]

 

[spiritman]

who says?

I like your style. He'll dodge that quesstion.

Peace

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Interesting. This interlinear shows the plural "we" for the Judean Man.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Zechariah 8:23 Thus He-says YHWH-of Hosts: "in-Days, the-they, which they-shall-take-firm-hold a-hem/wing, ten mortals/582 'enowsh, from-all-of Tongues-of the-Nations.
And-They-take-fast-hold in-hem-of a-Man/0376 'iysh, a-Judean, to-say-of 'We-shall-go with-Ye, that We-hear Elohiym with-Ye'". [Mark 6:56]

כג כֹּה-אָמַר, יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת, בַּיָּמִים הָהֵמָּה, אֲשֶׁר יַחֲזִיקוּ עֲשָׂרָה אֲנָשִׁים מִכֹּל לְשֹׁנוֹת הַגּוֹיִם; וְהֶחֱזִיקוּ בִּכְנַף אִישׁ יְהוּדִי לֵאמֹר, נֵלְכָה עִמָּכֶם--כִּי שָׁמַעְנוּ, אֱלֹהִים עִמָּכֶם. {ס}

 

[simonthezealot]

I like your style. He'll dodge that quesstion.

Peace

I didn't dodge it..Isn't the greatest miracle the salvation of a sinner? Doesn't that come by faith?
Do you honestly think it takes more faith to heal you than to save you?

 

[sunlover1]

For clarity though you aren't suggesting not being healed shows a lack of faith are you?

No, I am suggesting that lack of healing CAN be due to lack of faith.

Because if anyone has enough faith unto salvation clearly they have enough to be healed

I have enough faith to believe God for His salvation, but not
enough to step out and receive the freedom from bondage
that is His will (personal thing I dont want to get into here)

and whether or not your healed is not based on a level of faith. Right?

?
Healing does seem to be based very much on your faith unless
I misunderstand these passages... or unless something has changed.

Then touched he their eyes, saying,
According to your faith be it unto you.
And their eyes were opened;

15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick,
and the Lord shall raise him up



The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight.
And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath madea thee whole.

she declared unto him before all the people for what cause
she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately.
48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort:
thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.


He even told the disciples themselves that it was due to lack of faith:

19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart,
and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief:
for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith... http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=7287671#_ftn1
http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=7287671#_ftnref1



Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation,
how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you?
bring him hither to me.



In one place, Jesus Himself "could do no mighty work"!!
(wow) because of...

5 And he could there do no mighty work,
save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief.
And he went round about the villages, teaching. http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=7287671#_ftn1
http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=7287671#_ftnref1



Thank you,
sunlover

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

In one place, Jesus Himself "could do no mighty work"!!
(wow) because of...

5 And he could there do no mighty work,
save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief.
And he went round about the villages, teaching.




Thank you,
sunlover

I like that word "marvel"

2 Thessalonians 1:10 when He may be coming to be glorified in His saints, and to be marvelled in all those having Faith that was believed the Testimony of us upon ye in the Day, that. [Revelation 19/Ezekiel 39]

Revelation 17:8 The wild-beast which thou perceived was and not is; and is about to be ascendind out of the abyss, and into perdition/ruin/loss to be going. And shall be marvelling/qaumasontai <2296> (5695) the ones dwelling upon the land, of not whom has been written the name on the Scrollet of The Life from foundation of world, beholding the wild-beast that was, and not is, and shall be.

 

[sunlover1]

I like that word "marvel"

2 Thessalonians 1:10 when He may be coming to be glorified in His saints, and to be marvelled in all those having Faith that was believed the Testimony of us upon ye in the Day, that. [Revelation 19/Ezekiel 39]

Revelation 17:8 The wild-beast which thou perceived was and not is; and is about to be ascendind out of the abyss, and into perdition/ruin/loss to be going. And shall be marveling/qaumasontai <2296> (5695) the ones dwelling upon the land, of not whom has been written the name on the Scrollet of The Life from foundation of world, beholding the wild-beast that was, and not is, and shall be.

I know, it's hard for me to imagine God 'marvelling'
about anything at all.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I know, it's hard for me to imagine God 'marvelling'
about anything at all.

I like the way my bro Paul used that word here. AWSOME!!!!

Galatian 1:6 I am marvelling that thus swiftly ye are being changed/translated from the calling of ye into a different Good-Message.
7 which is not another if no any are the ones disturbing ye and willing to pervert the Good-Message of the Christ.

5 And he could there do no mighty work,
save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief.
And he went round about the villages, teaching.

 

[spiritman]

No, I am suggesting that lack of healing CAN be due to lack of faith.


I have enough faith to believe God for His salvation, but not
enough to step out and receive the freedom from bondage
that is His will (personal thing I dont want to get into here)


?
Healing does seem to be based very much on your faith unless
I misunderstand these passages... or unless something has changed.

Then touched he their eyes, saying,
According to your faith be it unto you.
And their eyes were opened;

15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick,
and the Lord shall raise him up



The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight.
And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made&#65279;a&#65279; thee whole.

she declared unto him before all the people for what cause
she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately.
48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort:
thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.


He even told the disciples themselves that it was due to lack of faith:

19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart,
and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief:
for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith...




Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation,
how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you?
bring him hither to me.



In one place, Jesus Himself "could do no mighty work"!!
(wow) because of...

5 And he could there do no mighty work,
save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief.
And he went round about the villages, teaching.




Thank you,
sunlover

You used my favorite scriptures. But there's a whole lot more.

The Word of God is alive and powerful!! I love the Word.

He sent His Word and healed them.

Ps 107:20 He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.

 

[Merlin]

Is not the greatest gift and miracle the salvation/eternal life of a no-good sinner?

yes.
but you're comparing apples and vacuum cleaners here.

 

[Merlin]

Well, Zech 8:23 comes to mine

Zechariah 8:23 Thus sayeth YHWH-of Hosts: in-Days, the-those, which they-shall-take-firm-hold a-hem/wing, Ten Mortals/582 'enowsh, from-all Tongues-of the-Nations.
And-They-take-fast/hold in-hem-of a-Man/0376 'iysh, a-Judean/Y@huwdiy, to-say 'We-are-going with-Thee that We-hear Elohiym with-Thee'. [Mark 6:56]

Mark 6:56 And the-where ever He into-journeyed into villages, the cities, the fields/hamlets, in the market-places, they place the ones being sick and they beside-called Him that if-even the hang-foot of the garment of Him they should be touching, and as manysoever as touch of it, were healed [Zech 8:23]

i don't follow your answers here.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

i don't follow your answers here.

That is ok. Neither do the Jews or RCs. Onward thru the FOG!!!! Btw, how do you view the Judean Man in that passage just for the heck of it

 

[spiritman]

I didn't dodge it..Isn't the greatest miracle the salvation of a sinner? Doesn't that come by faith?
Do you honestly think it takes more faith to heal you than to save you?

Of course it is!!! Then why can't you believe? Have you noticed that faith in God is not all inclusive. Each Word of God has to be believed and not just for salvation. There are many aspects of God's Word that people do not believe.

Just because a person believes in salvation doesn't mean he/she will accept healing as God's will.

You make a big assumption if you think a person who believes in God, automatically believes everything in the Bible. There are those that are saved and yet don't believe that the gifts of the spirit are for today.

The bottom line is faith. You either have it or you don't. Plain and simple. And if one is living in sin they cannot be walking by faith.

Peace