Perverted homosexual arguments

[Full_Moon]

Hello,

Am I the only one noticing that this homosexual debate consists of entirely absurd arguments?

I've got to admit it is kind of creepy how bad the theology on the issue is. Most gay people I know, even a couple X-Christians I see now and then, they have no problem reading the bible and seeing that it clearly condemns homosexual acts. They do homosexual acts, I do not condone them, but we still get along as human beings and sinners. Yet something strange is happening in the world of Christian religion on the issue, the bible is twisted so that it isn't recognizable anymore. I believe the 'pro-gay Christians' believe in the arguments they make. It baffles me how far people will go twisting truth and trying to convince others that 'black' is 'white'.

God must have a purpose in allowing this. But the door is now open to condone any sexually immoral act in the name of theology. Somehow so many of us have been convinced that there is no longer a right and wrong, good or evil. People honestly believe that the Law is null and void.

What a crazy world this is. Without conscience. Without reason.

 

[kiwimac]

The Bible, word of God or not, pre-supposes a world-view which has not existed since the time of Galileo Galilei. Our knowledge of science, our understanding of the how of things is much greater than it was in Galilei's time.

Perhaps those people of whom you speak are actually trying to read the bible in such a way as to deal honestly with the changes in our understanding of the universe?

 

[davedjy]

Hello,

Am I the only one noticing that this homosexual debate consists of entirely absurd arguments?

I've got to admit it is kind of creepy how bad the theology on the issue is. Most gay people I know, even a couple X-Christians I see now and then, they have no problem reading the bible and seeing that it clearly condemns homosexual acts. They do homosexual acts, I do not condone them, but we still get along as human beings and sinners. Yet something strange is happening in the world of Christian religion on the issue, the bible is twisted so that it isn't recognizable anymore. I believe the 'pro-gay Christians' believe in the arguments they make. It baffles me how far people will go twisting truth and trying to convince others that 'black' is 'white'.

God must have a purpose in allowing this. But the door is now open to condone any sexually immoral act in the name of theology. Somehow so many of us have been convinced that there is no longer a right and wrong, good or evil. People honestly believe that the Law is null and void.

What a crazy world this is. Without conscience. Without reason.

There are 28 denominations that disagree with you, and you can see it as whatever you want, but there is no changing it, and it is not condemned in Scripture as an isolated thing.

 

[MercyBurst]

Hello,

Am I the only one noticing that this homosexual debate consists of entirely absurd arguments?

Yes, you are correct. The majority of us consider the "gay proponents" to be false prophets, "wolves in sheeps clothing", preaching a a soul-destroying carnal doctrine from sodom.

In addition the denominations that accept this compromosed doctrine are in deep trouble membershipwise, financially, and spiritually. I personally know christians that have attended those denominations all their lives, and they have not accepted this corrupt doctrine for themselves. They are quite grieved about it. If you look at these gay-affirming churches you will notice that their membership is dieing:

http://www.bsu.edu/web/dsumner/Personal/churchgrowth.htm

Of course this doesn't seem to bother the gay-proponents any.

Jesus brings life. Sin, when it is finished, brings death. You can see this in the church membership numbers. It is true in the other denominations as well. sad sad sad.

Just look at the Presbyterian, Lutheran, and Church of Christ membership numbers. The presbys have had some major reductions in their staffing, and the episcopals have shut down many many churches. The episcopal church in our city of 30 thousand has an attendence of about 10 people every sunday.

 

[Der Alte]

There are 28 denominations that disagree with you, and you can see it as whatever you want, but there is no changing it, and it is not condemned in Scripture as an isolated thing.

[SIZE=+2]
Name them?[/SIZE]

 

[intricatic]

The Bible, word of God or not, pre-supposes a world-view which has not existed since the time of Galileo Galilei. Our knowledge of science, our understanding of the how of things is much greater than it was in Galilei's time.

Perhaps those people of whom you speak are actually trying to read the bible in such a way as to deal honestly with the changes in our understanding of the universe?

I disagree, our worldview is inferior and has been slowly degrading over time.

 

[seekthetruth909]

There are 28 denominations that disagree with you, and you can see it as whatever you want, but there is no changing it, and it is not condemned in Scripture as an isolated thing.

Could you please list all those denominations. I'm just curious.
Thank you
Seek

 

[seekthetruth909]

Hello,

Am I the only one noticing that this homosexual debate consists of entirely absurd arguments?

I've got to admit it is kind of creepy how bad the theology on the issue is. Most gay people I know, even a couple X-Christians I see now and then, they have no problem reading the bible and seeing that it clearly condemns homosexual acts. They do homosexual acts, I do not condone them, but we still get along as human beings and sinners. Yet something strange is happening in the world of Christian religion on the issue, the bible is twisted so that it isn't recognizable anymore. I believe the 'pro-gay Christians' believe in the arguments they make. It baffles me how far people will go twisting truth and trying to convince others that 'black' is 'white'.

God must have a purpose in allowing this. But the door is now open to condone any sexually immoral act in the name of theology. Somehow so many of us have been convinced that there is no longer a right and wrong, good or evil. People honestly believe that the Law is null and void.

What a crazy world this is. Without conscience. Without reason.

I just don't understand why gays just don't start their own religion using aspects of Christianity Then you would not have so much dissention in the denominations that are tearing apart. Why should the older more conservative people see their churches wrecked because of this issue? It is a lack of respect to put them through this.
Gays could have just started a United Gay Christian church and people could have left other churches if they wished to join them. That is what other churches like the Jehovah Witnesses did. If gay people are comfortable in their lifestyle why do they need other Christian’s approval by pushing the issue within traditional churches?

Seek

 

[Full_Moon]

No offense fellow, but I believe you've summed up the pro-gay arguments. They are based on human knowledge and human wisdom. Interpreting the bible with human eyes by what we know.

The Bible, word of God or not, pre-supposes a world-view which has not existed since the time of Galileo Galilei. **Our knowledge** of science, our understanding of the how of things is much greater than it was in Galilei's time.



Perhaps those people of whom you speak are actually trying to read the bible in such a way as to deal honestly with the changes in **our understanding** of the universe?

1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

1 Corinthians 2:13
This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

The thing is, when we worship a God of our understanding we are not worshipping God at all.



Like the readings we had in church today,



Psalm 63:3 "For your steadfast love is better than life itself; my lips shall give you praise"

-So imagine the best thing in life, God is better than that.



Isaiah 55:8-9

8"For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.

9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

-Imagine your highest thought, your keenest knowledge, your best way. Those are not God's thoughts, nor God's ways.



My point is that all I ever see in the pro-gay arguments is the following of human wisdom. Arguments from human authority. Quotations of human understanding and interpretation. We must follow God and God alone. Rely on God for His wisdom and interpretation, God and God alone. Follow Jesus Christ, abide in His teachings, not those of another.

 

[kiwimac]

God gave us minds to seek out the meanings of things, minds to extend our knowledge, to seek new things. We do God no service by refusing to use what God has given us for the use God gave it.

 

[Fuchsia]

I just don't understand why gays just don't start their own religion using aspects of Christianity Then you would not have so much dissention in the denominations that are tearing apart. Why should the older more conservative people see their churches wrecked because of this issue? It is a lack of respect to put them through this.
Gays could have just started a United Gay Christian church and people could have left other churches if they wished to join them. That is what other churches like the Jehovah Witnesses did. If gay people are comfortable in their lifestyle why do they need other Christian’s approval by pushing the issue within traditional churches?

Seek

As a conservative Episcopalian it really bothers me to see the more radical liberal elements within the Episcopal church trying to take things over and basically tear the church apart. Many of the traditional denominations are losing alot of their integrity and members over matters like this.

 

[Full_Moon]

God gave us minds to seek out the meanings of things, minds to extend our knowledge, to seek new things. We do God no service by refusing to use what God has given us for the use God gave it.

In using our God-given reason while reading scripture, it should let us know that human wisdom is not God's wisdom. When scripture says that God is the source of His Law, Gospel etc and NOT human knowledge/ wisdom, our reasoning should conclude that such things are not from human wisdom/ knowledge but of God. Likewise if scripture says to rely on God's wisdom, then our human reasoning should tell us that we cannot rely on our own wisdom.

It becomes entirely unreasonable to argue theology from the standpoint of human knowledge over God's.

To assume that scriptures are 'man'-breathed and therefore subject to more modern human understandings is to directly contradict what the scriptures themselves say.

If we are to confess that God gave us the Law, but then to argue that it is merely human law, then we contradict ourselves.

If we say we are Christians who follow Christ, but that Christ is equal to our understanding of Him, then we not only belittle the Lord to the highest human thought, but we consequently follow a god of our own human invention. 'A god of our own understanding'.

It is unreasonable to argue that one follows Christ, but then to reject what Christ teaches and follow their own thoughts.

Furthermore, in relating to most of the pro-gay arguments I hear on this forum, Saying the scriptures are invalid when they speak against homosexual acts but then valid in their silence on homosexual acts is to say scripture is both valid and invalid at the same time. It is also to say that silence on a matter equates with blessing.

And now I'm just ranting.

Anyways, I'm just appalled at how unreasonable the debates become. I'm shocked at the power of sly rhetoric. I'm disturbed at how such weak arguments have the power to destroy churches and nullify God's word.

God given reason should lead us to conclude that only God is wise. Observe the world and the ways of man, we are not wise.

 

[davedjy]

[SIZE=+2]
Name them?[/SIZE]

GAy pentecostal, presybterian, Quaker, UCC, Metropolitan Community Church...among a few...they add up to 28

 

[Full_Moon]

Decided to spend a few minutes checking out the claims. Though only a few out of the apparently 28 were mentioned by name, I found that generally there was no universal stance on homosexuality in any of the churches that were mentioned. Some groups within each of the churches were pro-gay and some groups were opposed. The main problem I found in checking out the claims is that no specific denominations were mentioned that were officially pro-gay and from what I found a couple of them were officially anti-gay.

I did this check to verify the integrity of the author of the claims. Because only a few out of the 28 were named and none of those named have any official pro-gay stance on the issue (or the name represents more than one denomination), I conclude that Dave has is merely repeating what he has heard and really doesn't know whether 28 denominations do support homosexuality. Like many of his posts, which appear to be plagiarized, I believe this information is from somewhere else.

Personally, I have no problem believing that 28 or more denominations support homosexuality. I do have a problem believing that dave knows this for a fact and believe he is just repeating pro-gay propaganda from a specific website.

It is irrelevant how many denominations do support homosexuality. I would guess that it wouldn't be difficult to find 28 denominations that support racism. What matters is what God supports or condemns.

The vast majority of Christian denominations are opposed to homosexuality.

GAy pentecostal, presybterian, Quaker, UCC, Metropolitan Community Church...among a few...they add up to 28

The United Pentecostal Church International:

The United Pentecostal Church traces its roots back to 1916-OCT, when a group of pastors left the Assemblies of God. They are a fundamentalist denomination, which is part of the Pentecostal family of Christian denominations.

Their General Conference adopted a very brief Position Paper on Homosexuality in 1977. It made a number of points:
bullet They do not approve of liberal groups within Christianity who are accepting "the so-called 'gay-rights' movement as a legitimate lifestyle."
bullet They interpret Romans 1 as declaring that homosexuality is "vile, unnatural, unseemly and an abomination in the sight of God."
bullet They condemn homosexuality as a "moral decadence and sin"
bullet They encourage people to pray for "the deliverance of those enslaved by that satanic snare."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_upci.htm




PITTSBURGH (AP) - A Presbyterian minister accused of violating church law by marrying two women could face another complaint.

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20061210/23987_Presbyterian_Gay_'Marriage'_Presider_May_Face_New_Complaint.htm

A LOCAL CHURCH CELEBRATES A COVENANT OF UNION
The United Church of Christ has, as yet, taken no public stance on matter of gay and lesbian union. services. In line with its “congregational” polity, ...
http://www.ucc.org/justice/pdfs/emr17.pdf

http://www.ucc.org/search/results.php?q=gay+stance

Quaker doesn't seem to be a real denomination, but I still found them:

There are several different groups of quakers. About half of the quakers in the US support gay relationships as a good thing. The other half will tell you essentially that while they love you, the sinner, they hate homosexuality, which they consider a sin. These two groups of quakers are quite separate most of the time.

http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/mes...tropolitan+Community+Church&btnG=Search&meta=

 

[HisKid1973]

Decided to spend a few minutes checking out the claims. Though only a few out of the apparently 28 were mentioned by name, I found that generally there was no universal stance on homosexuality

Thanks for taking time to look into that it gives a different view of the comment presented..pax..Kim

 

[Full_Moon]

'Some' church supports 'something evil', therefore God supports 'something evil'. -This is the format of a really bad argument. Fact is, Christians are fallible. It is easy to be a 'Christian' denomination. And it really means nothing.

To highlight this point, I will use this form of argument to "justify" other evil things.

A Luthern parish in Berlin supported Nazism!

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,405922,00.html

A Protestant parish in Berlin has grabbed an ethical dilemma by the horns with an appeal for funds to save Germany's last Nazi era church. The building's interior is full of Third Reich symbols. The aim is to turn it into a place of remembrance.

The Third Reich collapsed 61 years ago but you wouldn't know it if you walk into the Martin Luther Memorial Church in Berlin. The stark entrance hall is lit by a black chandelier in the shape of an iron cross. The pulpit has a wooden carving of a muscular Jesus leading a helmeted Wehrmacht soldier and surrounded by an Aryan family. The baptismal font is guarded by a wooden statue of a stormtrooper from Adolf Hitler's paramilitary Sturmabteilung (SA) unit clutching his cap.

This is harder than I thought, I suppose because it is illegal to promote racism etc,

Racist church keeps tax-exempt status
Racist church keeps tax-exempt status. Judge throws out challenge to World Church of the Creator's standing. Daily Southtown/February 9, 2000 ...
www.rickross.com/reference/hale/hale30.html - 6k - Cached - Similar pages

Ouch, this one hurts because you will recognize the name. I guess black racism is more tolerated.

http://forums.sportingnews.com/viewtopic.php?t=182881&start=11

Trinity United Church of Christ adopted the Black Value System written by the Manford Byrd Recognition Committee chaired by Vallmer Jordan in 1981. We believe in the following 12 precepts and covenantal statements. These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect on the following concepts:

Commitment to God
Commitment to the Black Community
Commitment to the Black Family
Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
Adherence to the Black Work Ethic
Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect
Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"
Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community
Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions
Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System
Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.

Now if black was white, we would have a criminal charge against that church.


Here is a church that supports racism,

http://www.adl.org/hate-patrol/churchmovement.asp

The Identity Church movement promotes
the view that Christianity, when properly understood, supports anti-Semitic and racist beliefs and extremist violence.

Of course we all know of South African racist Calvinist theologies,

http://www.bethel.edu/~letnie/AfricanChristianity/SAAfrikanerChurches.html

As soon as the the Dutch Calvinist colonists landed at the Cape of Good Hope, they formed the Nederduitse Gereformeerde Kerk (NGK), by far the largest and most influenctial of the Afrikaner churches.
The NGK has been the church of the Afrikaner establishment. From 1948 to 1994 it, (along with the NHK) was the church most closely identified with the racist policies of Apartheid, and provided theological justification for Apartheid. http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/history/misc/verkuyl.html

This one is harsh, I remember when the United church in Canada called for members to remove their investments from Israel. You'll recognize some of these churches from Dave's list.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17876

The United Church of Christ appears set to hop on the bandwagon of mainline Protestant initiatives to divest from
Israel.

Since the Presbyterians’ resolution last July, which called for “selective phased divestment” from companies operating in Israel, the idea has also gained traction among Anglicans, Episcopalians, and Methodists. The Presbyterians, for their part, have now persuaded the Geneva-based World Council of Churches to encourage its member churches to pursue divestment as well.

On April 21, the website of the United Church of Christ posted two resolutions by its General Synod calling for divestment. They are steeped in what can at best be called abysmal ignorance and bias.

There was a small uproar where I live about antisemitism in churches over this movement.

Now I'm bored. Hopefully the point is made. Just because some denominations support something doesn't make it right.

 

[kiwimac]

In using our God-given reason while reading scripture, it should let us know that human wisdom is not God's wisdom. When scripture says that God is the source of His Law, Gospel etc and NOT human knowledge/ wisdom, our reasoning should conclude that such things are not from human wisdom/ knowledge but of God. Likewise if scripture says to rely on God's wisdom, then our human reasoning should tell us that we cannot rely on our own wisdom.

It becomes entirely unreasonable to argue theology from the standpoint of human knowledge over God's.

To assume that scriptures are 'man'-breathed and therefore subject to more modern human understandings is to directly contradict what the scriptures themselves say.

If we are to confess that God gave us the Law, but then to argue that it is merely human law, then we contradict ourselves.

If we say we are Christians who follow Christ, but that Christ is equal to our understanding of Him, then we not only belittle the Lord to the highest human thought, but we consequently follow a god of our own human invention. 'A god of our own understanding'.

It is unreasonable to argue that one follows Christ, but then to reject what Christ teaches and follow their own thoughts.

Furthermore, in relating to most of the pro-gay arguments I hear on this forum, Saying the scriptures are invalid when they speak against homosexual acts but then valid in their silence on homosexual acts is to say scripture is both valid and invalid at the same time. It is also to say that silence on a matter equates with blessing.

And now I'm just ranting.

Anyways, I'm just appalled at how unreasonable the debates become. I'm shocked at the power of sly rhetoric. I'm disturbed at how such weak arguments have the power to destroy churches and nullify God's word.

God given reason should lead us to conclude that only God is wise. Observe the world and the ways of man, we are not wise.

God did not turn off the human part of the Bible writers when God used them. They did not become recording units, they remained human and capable of error.

God may have well authored the 'Law' but it was entirely oral until it was written down during Ezra's time, moreover Paul assures us that we are not under the Law at all.

Jesus never once mentions homosexuality.

 

[Full_Moon]

God did not turn off the human part of the Bible writers when God used them. They did not become recording units, they remained human and capable of error.

God may have well authored the 'Law' but it was entirely oral until it was written down during Ezra's time, moreover Paul assures us that we are not under the Law at all.

Jesus never once mentions homosexuality.

so what shall we conclude by the points you make?

I could infer a meaning, but I think you should make it clear what point you are making about homosexuality. Make your argument justifying homosexuality if you will.

Or are you only trying to cast doubt on scripture?

Either way, your overall point is not clear to me. Please make a clear argument as you have not specifically stated what this has to do with homosexuality.

(Jesus never mentioned incest, does what Paul said mean there is no right and wrong?, does your point about when the law was apparently written make it invalid etc etc ???)

 

[PinkTulip]

God did not turn off the human part of the Bible writers when God used them. They did not become recording units, they remained human and capable of error.

Please explain how you know this. The Bible itself claims Scripture is inspired by God.

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.2 Timothy 3:16-17

God may have well authored the 'Law' but it was entirely oral until it was written down during Ezra's time, moreover Paul assures us that we are not under the Law at all.

We are not saved by the Law, but the Law is written in our hearts.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? Romans 6:15-16

7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."[b]

Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.4 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day." (Acts 15:19-21)

Jesus never once mentions homosexuality

Yes he did, he gave the Law. Jesus said, the Father and I are one...If you deny Jesus, you deny the Father.

And Paul spoke against it through the Holy Spirit.

 

[davedjy]

Decided to spend a few minutes checking out the claims. Though only a few out of the apparently 28 were mentioned by name, I found that generally there was no universal stance on homosexuality in any of the churches that were mentioned. Some groups within each of the churches were pro-gay and some groups were opposed. The main problem I found in checking out the claims is that no specific denominations were mentioned that were officially pro-gay and from what I found a couple of them were officially anti-gay.

I did this check to verify the integrity of the author of the claims. Because only a few out of the 28 were named and none of those named have any official pro-gay stance on the issue (or the name represents more than one denomination), I conclude that Dave has is merely repeating what he has heard and really doesn't know whether 28 denominations do support homosexuality. Like many of his posts, which appear to be plagiarized, I believe this information is from somewhere else.

Personally, I have no problem believing that 28 or more denominations support homosexuality. I do have a problem believing that dave knows this for a fact and believe he is just repeating pro-gay propaganda from a specific website.

It is irrelevant how many denominations do support homosexuality. I would guess that it wouldn't be difficult to find 28 denominations that support racism. What matters is what God supports or condemns.

The vast majority of Christian denominations are opposed to homosexuality.



The United Pentecostal Church International:

The United Pentecostal Church traces its roots back to 1916-OCT, when a group of pastors left the Assemblies of God. They are a fundamentalist denomination, which is part of the Pentecostal family of Christian denominations.

Their General Conference adopted a very brief Position Paper on Homosexuality in 1977. It made a number of points:
bullet They do not approve of liberal groups within Christianity who are accepting "the so-called 'gay-rights' movement as a legitimate lifestyle."
bullet They interpret Romans 1 as declaring that homosexuality is "vile, unnatural, unseemly and an abomination in the sight of God."
bullet They condemn homosexuality as a "moral decadence and sin"
bullet They encourage people to pray for "the deliverance of those enslaved by that satanic snare."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_upci.htm




PITTSBURGH (AP) - A Presbyterian minister accused of violating church law by marrying two women could face another complaint.

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20061210/23987_Presbyterian_Gay_'Marriage'_Presider_May_Face_New_Complaint.htm

A LOCAL CHURCH CELEBRATES A COVENANT OF UNION
The United Church of Christ has, as yet, taken no public stance on matter of gay and lesbian union. services. In line with its “congregational” polity, ...
http://www.ucc.org/justice/pdfs/emr17.pdf

http://www.ucc.org/search/results.php?q=gay+stance

Quaker doesn't seem to be a real denomination, but I still found them:

There are several different groups of quakers. About half of the quakers in the US support gay relationships as a good thing. The other half will tell you essentially that while they love you, the sinner, they hate homosexuality, which they consider a sin. These two groups of quakers are quite separate most of the time.

http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/mes...tropolitan+Community+Church&btnG=Search&meta=

This does not prove anything. There are many legitimate Churches that are accepting of the "gay lifestyle". The Presbyterian Church (New light), I believe is one of them, the Metropolitan Community Church, UCC (not the one you quoted), Gay Pentecostal, etc. The ones you quoted, I have no idea...but we have quite a few accepting out here, I just attending one, but there are quite a few more in my area.

Yes, they are INDEPENDENT in doctrine, obviously! that just makes them "non-denominational", or of a different denomination.