Persecution

[JohnR7]

John 15:20
Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.

Jesus clearly tells us that when we serve Him, there are going to be people who persecute us. Do you serve God? If you do, then you can be sure that your not going to be a popular person with the people who make themselves to be an enemy of God.

 

[Freodin]

Sadly, many people try to turn this conclusion around.

"I am persecuted, so that means I do serve God!"

This is wrong: you can be persecuted even if you do not serve God.

 

[Arikay]

So, because Christians Persecute me, does that mean im doing the work of God? Or is it only when you are persecuted?

If two sides of christianity persecute each other back and forth as they like to retaliate against each other, how do we know which is serving god and which isnt?

 

[David Gould]

So, because Christians Persecute me, does that mean im doing the work of God? Or is it only when you are persecuted?

If two sides of christianity persecute each other back and forth as they like to retaliate against each other, how do we know which is serving god and which isnt?

That's easy. The True Christians are the ones serving God.

How do you tell who they are?

Easy. Ask God.

How do you know if you are actually speaking to God?

Easy - if your message is the same as that of the True Christians, then you are talking to God.

Now all you need is a bit of persecution. That'll really clinch the circularity of the argument.

Anyone got some thumbscrews?

What was that?

You didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition?

Well ... nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition, do they?

 

[Jet Black]

You didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition?

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.

 

[lucaspa]

John 15:20
Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.

Jesus clearly tells us that when we serve Him, there are going to be people who persecute us. Do you serve God? If you do, then you can be sure that your not going to be a popular person with the people who make themselves to be an enemy of God.

To look at this logically, there are two premises here:

1. John is persecuted.

2. John serves God.

The question is: is either premise true? Both Arikay and David have questioned them in their own way, David humorously. I'm going to do so more formally as a teaching exercise.

1. John is persecuted. This itself has a hidden premise: that the ideas of the person are the same as the person. Therefore, refute the ideas and you "persecute" the person. But this isn't true. Ideas are separate from the people who propose or defend them. Relativity isn't Einstein. Uncertainty isn't Heisenberg. Christianity isn't St. Paul. These are simply the first people to propose them. When you throw out ideas for discussion, if those ideas are shot down, then that says nothing about you as a person. It simply says the ideas are wrong.

Now, John does confuse the ideas with the people. For instance, when I refute that there was no massive die-off at the end of the Ice Age, he tells me I am "simple minded". To him, the idea is me.

2. John serves God. This is a retreat to "authority" when the ideas are shown to be wrong. Rather than give up the idea, call in big brother -- God -- and say that you can't attack him. If God tells you so, then that means you are right. The problem, of course, is that John can never supply objective evidence that God does tell him things.

Behind this is yet another premise: creationists are the good guys. That is, they are the defenders of Christianity against the godless hordes who talk about science and evolution. But is that true? Are creationists REALLY the good guys? Are they really talking about God? I say "no". Creationists and creationism, in all its forms, is the gravest danger Christianity has faced since the Gnostic heresy. Creationism has the capability to destroy Christianity. Atheism can't do that. Evolution can't do that. But creationism can. Creationism is worship of false idols (their interpretation of the Bible) and apostasy (claiming to be God or above by being able to tell God how He created). Throw in a little false witness, and you have heathens trying to destroy Christianity.

In fact, creationism is really the only way Christianity and theism CAN be destroyed, as far as I can see. This has led me to wonder whether creationists -- including John -- aren't really undercover atheists undermining Christianity while claiming to be Christians.

 

[Siliconaut]

@Lucaspa: As usual, well thought out and concisely said.

Although I don't think any atheist could be immoral enough to emulate John's style of discussion... SCNR!

 

[JohnR7]

To look at this logically, there are two premises here:

1. John is persecuted.

2. John serves God.

Why do you always make everything personal? We are not here to talk about John. We are here to share our viewpoints.

The subject is persecution, the subject is NOT John.

 

[Freodin]

Why do you always make everything personal? We are not here to talk about John. We are here to share our viewpoints.

The subject is persecution, the subject is NOT John.

This is so, but some speculation of why you chose to post this subject at this time in this forum must be allowed.

 

[Siliconaut]

Well, the intention may have been to get "first-hand eyewitness accounts of what they did to our Wesley". These select stories of "severe repercussions" against loving, god-fearing christian heroes usually serve to portray a sinister threat posed by the evil, demon-worshipping atheist society around them.

If you can create fear, the loathing will come all by itself, and random (if not simply perceived) injustice will be seen as directly targeted at one's christian-ness. Thus, you isolate your flock from independent POVs and have an easy time indoctrinating them with even more fear and terror.

Christianity is the major religion in the US. Cases of christians persecuting religious minorities should outweigh the opposite by a large margin - unless you count "I was not allowed to stone the unbeliever" as religious persecution...

 

[Arikay]

Yeah, You begin to wonder how many "Evil Atheists" we really have around here, when many are trying to defend christianity from being something that could destroy it, and try to explain why christians Shouldn't hand over such a powerfull weapon as Evolution to the Atheists.

To look at this logically, there are two premises here:
In fact, creationism is really the only way Christianity and theism CAN be destroyed, as far as I can see. This has led me to wonder whether creationists -- including John -- aren't really undercover atheists undermining Christianity while claiming to be Christians.

 

[Freodin]

The main problem I see here is that the misinterpretation/invertation of this quotes leads to a culture were persecution is actively sought.

Is this some kind of self-gratification? A method that gives you a good feeling, a feeling of righteousness: when you have picked and nagged and bothered people until they kick you, so that you can say "See, I am right! The persecution I recieve proves it!"?

 

[Philip]

The subject is persecution, the subject is NOT John.

What does persecution have to do with science, creation and evolution?

 

[JohnR7]

This is so, but some speculation of why you chose to post this subject at this time in this forum must be allowed.

Do you think it is a big secret that this forum is here so that christians can witness to non christians about their beliefs? If indeed the christians come to this forum to witness, then something that is going to need to be addressed is the issue of persecution. Esp. personal attacks.

This has less to do with the subject matter as it does in coming to an agreement on the rules of conduct so that we can better involve ourselves in the discusson and spend less time having to defend outself against a personal attack that has nothing to do with the topic.

 

[Arikay]

The question is, who is more willing to turn the other cheek and do unto others as you would have them do unto you? The Christian or the non christian?

 

[JohnR7]

when you have picked and nagged and bothered people until they kick you,

You make it out as if this is a personal thing. We have taken a stand for the truth, we are taking a stand for the truth, and we will continue to take a stand for the truth. Error and truth do not mix. So we will continue to expose error for what it is. If people are trying to cling to their error or if somehow their beliefs that are in error give them some sort of false sense of security, then I suppose they may not want to give up the error in their thinking. It just seems like when they can no longer defend their beliefs, then as a last act of desperation, they turn on the person who is trying to show them the truth. They turn it into a personal attack against them. There actually is no prejudice in this. I see every christian who comes here end up persecuted to some degree or another, when they try and take a stand for God and what they believe.

 

[JohnR7]

The question is, who is more willing to turn the other cheek and do unto others as you would have them do unto you? The Christian or the non christian?

You make it sound like the Hatfields and the MCoys. After settling their latest dispute in the court system this year, they signed a treaty between them in a attempt to put a historical end to the quarrel between them. They signed the agreement, but then they could not agree on where to put the agreement. Maybe they should have signed two copys of the agreement.

 

[Duane Morse]

Most people who are in error do not think they are in error. And everyone is in error to some degree, wouldn't you say? Else, we would have all knowledge.

Isn't that why there are so many denominations in Christianity? Every one of them think the others are in error on some particular point.

 

[Freodin]

You make it out as if this is a personal thing. We have taken a stand for the truth, we are taking a stand for the truth, and we will continue to take a stand for the truth. Error and truth do not mix. So we will continue to expose error for what it is. If people are trying to cling to their error or if somehow their beliefs that are in error give them some sort of false sense of security, then I suppose they may not want to give up the error in their thinking. It just seems like when they can no longer defend their beliefs, then as a last act of desperation, they turn on the person who is trying to show them the truth. They turn it into a personal attack against them. There actually is no prejudice in this. I see every christian who comes here end up persecuted to some degree or another, when they try and take a stand for God and what they believe.

It is a personal thing. What could be more personal than persecution?

Yet, it is strangely impersonal - in that what you described here seems not to limited to Christians being persecuted by unbelievers.

All you said was correct: people have their errors exposed, people continue to cling to them, people lash out with personal attacks...

... but only Christians start to cry "Persecution!"

Well, equal rights for everyone.


Fellow Atheists, unbelievers and scientists of all faiths! I have to warn you: when you come to this forum to expose the untruths and correct errors, be prepared to be ridiculed, talked down at, called liars and frauds, hold for pupils of Satan and worse. It has happened before and will happen again.

You will be cruely persecuted.

But of course, as intelligent people, you knew what you were up to.

 

[Arikay]

But that didnt really answer the question, did it.

You never really did answer my question awhile ago.

Are you willing to turn the other cheek and stop "persecuting" people the way you believe you are being "persecuted?"

(to put the question in different terms).

You make it sound like the Hatfields and the MCoys. After settling their latest dispute in the court system this year, they signed a treaty between them in a attempt to put a historical end to the quarrel between them. They signed the agreement, but then they could not agree on where to put the agreement. Maybe they should have signed two copys of the agreement.