Perpetual virginity (not a hate thread)

[Philothei]

You've been wrong longer than we've been right?

very funny indeed !!!

 

[MamaZ]

Somehow this blessed among women changed to blessed above all others.. Reminds me of that game where one whispers truth in someones ear and by the time it gets around all it is not even close to the first whisper..

 

[Philothei]

Shall we apply that analogy to the Holy Trinity then? .... or to the Incarnation?

 

[Rick Otto]

Shall we apply that analogy to the Holy Trinity then? .... or to the Incarnation?

Why?
Those ideas are clearly & explicitly expressed in scripture. PV isn't.

 

[Thekla]

Somehow this blessed among women changed to blessed above all others.. Reminds me of that game where one whispers truth in someones ear and by the time it gets around all it is not even close to the first whisper..

Truly, all in Christ are blessed. The blessedness of the Theotokos was, however, uniquely manifested in all eternity and in this particular manifestation unrepeatable. She is also 'bridge' between OT and NT, and the model of dedication and the bearing of Christ 'within', and an evangelist of Christ incarnated.

May we all live our life in Him fully, abundantly, and in blessedness.

 

[Rick Otto]

And as noted by Jesus, her blessedness resided in her hearing & obeying God, not in the state of her flesh.

 

[Thekla]

And as noted by Jesus, her blessedness resided in her hearing & obeying God, not in the state of her flesh.

Now I won't need to go back a page

It is both - the one emanating from the other., both informing the other. All 'divisions' are healed in Christ; the incarnation of Christ displays the healing of the division of "inner and outer" man. We were created a "whole", and became broken. In Christ, the wholeness is being restored. So, in iterating the wholeness restored in one particular person, we also recognise the person as a whole and the uniqueness of each Christian's particular calling in Christ.

 

[Rick Otto]

The wholeness restored was in the relationship, not the flesh. We have the wholeness of the relationship but we must wait for return/resurrection before we put on immortality.

 

[Thekla]

The wholeness restored was in the relationship, not the flesh. We have the wholeness of the relationship but we must wait for return/resurrection before we put on immortality.

agreed; but wholeness indicates a "not competing/warring" between the inner and the outer in this life (ie, operating as a wholeness directed toward God) and likewise the whole person receiving God (as temple). In some instances, Christ healed by word and others by touch - again, evidencing "wholeness" in His example.

 

[Philothei]

clearly & explicitly expressed in scripture.

where do you see the word trinity in the bible...or shall we go circular on this for the million time? It is obvious to you have you asked the non-trinitarians they are still bible based...or so they claim...

 

[Thekla]

The support for the Trinity (against scripture quoting naysayers of various stripes) depended in part on "Tradition" and also on some of the "word chasing" and "typos" eschewed on GT re: other matters.

But, as the argument is long past and its results effectively evangelized, it seems perhaps "more obvious" now than in the early centuries ...

 

[Philothei]

But according to the "broken telephone" idea of Mama z declared earlier .... Trinity could just be one of those concepts of God that passed on and got distorted... Not my concept it was brought up just like that... So... according to that notion any belief (norma normas???) is based on "rumor" if it is yet outside from a Biblical truth. Even reading more than the epistles during Church services should be questioned as it does not declare so in the Bible...or one marrying its own offsprings.!!! etc. ....

Again in the Bible it does not so specify that the Bible is the ONLY authority in Christian belief... period!!

 

[Danya]

But according to the "broken telephone" idea of Mama z declared earlier .... Trinity could just be one of those concepts of God that passed on and got distorted... Not my concept it was brought up just like that... So... according to that notion any belief (norma normas???) is based on "rumor" if it is yet outside from a Biblical truth. Even reading more than the epistles during Church services should be questioned as it does not declare so in the Bible...or one marrying its own offsprings.!!! etc. ....

Again in the Bible it does not so specify that the Bible is the ONLY authority in Christian belief... period!!

No, I disagree. For anyone that reads the scriptures it is plain to see.

The word Trinity is not specifically mentioned in scripture, but it is clear to see just with the baptism of Jesus alone.

Also we have verses as these
Matt 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

1Peter 1:2
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

2Cor 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

 

[Philothei]

Still the word Trinity nowhere to be found ... Anyways that is not our topic and I would hate to derail that was brought up as an analogy and there are some more that would align in the same manner...

 

[bbbbbbb]

You know what, folks, after I became a Christian the word, trinity, carried no special meaning for me. I did not need a church to drum it into me. When I read the New Testament for the first time it was quite apparent that God was the Father of Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ was God, and the Holy Spirit was God. It was also clearly evident that there is only one God. In my feeble little mind it dawned on me that these three are one God. A trinity by any other name is still a trinity.

 

[Thekla]

You know what, folks, after I became a Christian the word, trinity, carried no special meaning for me. I did not need a church to drum it into me. When I read the New Testament for the first time it was quite apparent that God was the Father of Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ was God, and the Holy Spirit was God. It was also clearly evident that there is only one God. In my feeble little mind it dawned on me that these three are one God. A trinity by any other name is still a trinity.

I have no doubt that this happens (you're evidence, for one ); but it would seem in earlier times, a different mileau, this would not necessarily be the case. For example, such an idea could easily be "confused" with existent notions of "trinity" (Platonic, Celtic, for ex.) and take on the characteristics of pagan trinities. Also, the idea of the identity of the promised Messiah then popular in some circles presented another competing conceptualization.

Though I may be wrong, I do think modern Christians have benefited from the battles waged on this issue in earlier centuries.

 

[Danya]

Still the word Trinity nowhere to be found ... Anyways that is not our topic and I would hate to derail that was brought up as an analogy and there are some more that would align in the same manner...

You brought it up in response to MamaZ's post.
You were alluding the Trinity is not clear in scripture as the assumption is not even in there.
Her post about the concept on PV and it being passed down in tradition like a game of whisper.

That was all I was responding to and I agree back to the topic.

 

[Rick Otto]

I have no doubt that this happens (you're evidence, for one ); but it would seem in earlier times, a different mileau, this would not necessarily be the case. For example, such an idea could easily be "confused" with existent notions of "trinity" (Platonic, Celtic, for ex.) and take on the characteristics of pagan trinities. Also, the idea of the identity of the promised Messiah then popular in some circles presented another competing conceptualization.

Though I may be wrong, I do think modern Christians have benefited from the battles waged on this issue in earlier centuries.

Not to simply be contentious, but this (bolded & italicized) is in contradiction to the assertions I hear in defense of extra-scriptural Traditions that illiteracy was the norm.
If one can't read & yet be literate in notions as sophisticated & nuanced as Celtic & Platonic trinity concepts, one could as easily be informed of the NT transition from the OT as well, especialy since the OT background information was common knowledge to that region.
Paganization would be assimilated from even more proximate sources like the Philistines & the Assyrians, etc. as well as Egyptians & Romans - at least as much as the Greeks & Celts, I would think.

That mini-rant was inspired by my assertion that any oral tradition mentioned in scripture isn't necessarily any different than what's written, but is necessarily in harmony with what's written.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=bbbbbbb; You know what, folks, after I became a Christian the word, trinity, carried no special meaning for me. I did not need a church to drum it into me. When I read the New Testament for the first time it was quite apparent that God was the Father of Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ was God, and the Holy Spirit was God. It was also clearly evident that there is only one God. In my feeble little mind it dawned on me that these three are one God.

Eggs Ackley the same here.

A trinity by any other name is still a trinity.

Dude, you could write plays or somethin'!

 

[Philothei]

That mini-rant was inspired by my assertion that any oral tradition mentioned in scripture isn't necessarily any different than what's written, but is necessarily in harmony with what's written.

but that is what we are saying all this time.. Where do you see the EV contradicting the stripture? In a wrong translation of "brother" of Christ no where else...It is me or we have been saying this all ...aaaalooooong.....

"written" is not necessarily the same as "translated" neirther "interpreted" ... we outta to be careful with that cause it comes down to that in the end story...