Perpetual virginity (not a hate thread)

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Yes, as a ten foot high blue Toyota (or is that a Chevy )

IF that's a dogma of the RCC....

Otherwise, all I see is an affirmation that if the Bible is silent about something, it MUST be DOGMA: the "problem" is, which dogma? That Mary is alive and well and living in Brazil because Scripture mentions NOTHING about Mary still being alive or Brazil? Silence PROVES such to be DOGMA? I think not...

Yes, I think it is generally thought that Mary died. Frankly, what that has to do with anything - I don't know, but probably more than how many times Mary and Joseph had sex (if at all). In any case, there is no dogma that Mary is alive and living in Brazil or that Mary gave birth to 97 girls and 2 boys or had sex with Joseph 42 times. There IS a DOGMA that she never ever once had sex. Not once. THAT is the subject of this thread - whether she EVER had sex - even once.




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[Rick Otto]

Talkin' to the wrong side of the river there

I'm talkin' to all sides of the river, sweetie. You might not be RC, but you are not off the hook because you are Christian.
The house is on fire. You can't say, it isn't my side of the house.

 

[Rick Otto]

IF that's a dogma of the RCC....

Otherwise, all I see is an affirmation that if the Bible is silent about something, it MUST be DOGMA: the "problem" is, which dogma? That Mary is alive and well and living in Brazil because Scripture mentions NOTHING about Mary still being alive or Brazil? Silence PROVES such to be DOGMA? I think not...

Yes, I think it is generally thought that Mary died. Frankly, what that has to do with anything - I don't know, but probably more than how many times Mary and Joseph had sex (if at all). In any case, there is no dogma that Mary is alive and living in Brazil or that Mary gave birth to 97 girls and 2 boys or had sex with Joseph 42 times. There IS a DOGMA that she never ever once had sex. Not once. THAT is the subject of this thread - whether she EVER had sex - even once. substantiates nothing - much less DOGMA?




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Realy, tho?
Is that the dogma, or is the dogma that she remained a virgin?
Because if she could fulfill the prophecy give being a virgin who gives birth, & then for some reason remain a virgin, why couldn't she consummate her marriage & remain virgin?

 

[Thekla]

I'm talkin' to all sides of the river, sweetie. You might not be RC, but you are not off the hook because you are Christian.
The house is on fire. You can't say, it isn't my side of the house.

so why battle the "other guy's pope" when you can battle your own

 

[Thekla]

IF that's a dogma of the RCC....

Otherwise, all I see is an affirmation that if the Bible is silent about something, it MUST be DOGMA: the "problem" is, which dogma? That Mary is alive and well and living in Brazil because Scripture mentions NOTHING about Mary still being alive or Brazil? Silence PROVES such to be DOGMA? I think not...

Yes, I think it is generally thought that Mary died. Frankly, what that has to do with anything - I don't know, but probably more than how many times Mary and Joseph had sex (if at all). In any case, there is no dogma that Mary is alive and living in Brazil or that Mary gave birth to 97 girls and 2 boys or had sex with Joseph 42 times. There IS a DOGMA that she never ever once had sex. Not once. THAT is the subject of this thread - whether she EVER had sex - even once.




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"FRENCH POEM"

La vie, la vie,
Beaucoup de parapluies"

AUTHORized translation:

Oh life, what a lot of
umbrellas.

Ian Hamilton Finlay
New Directions in Prose and Poetry #20, ed. J. Laughlin

 

[MamaZ]

Hehehe there was a post by Rd Iakovos....now gone... Hey you have to come back and post again...lol..

I already answered this question... The Apostles included this conversation because they wanted to make a point otherwise they would not have included it in the Bible... Elizabeth says "all generations" and that has been fullfilled so far all generations since the incarnation have been calling her blessed...

After the book of Acts there is no mention of Mary in the scriptures. So we can see through the lens of the scripture that this tradition is not seen being kept by any of the Apostles. No where do we see where Matthew or Luke called her blessed or even spoke to her none the less.

 

[jckstraw72]

how do you think Luke knew all those details about the babies leaping in the womb and all that good shtuff? He spoke to Mary.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

how do you think Luke knew all those details about the babies leaping in the womb and all that good shtuff? He spoke to Mary.

Oh my goodness!
Not oral tradition!?

No, no, it just can't be.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

.

 

[Rick Otto]

so why battle the "other guy's pope" when you can battle your own

Maybe you have too many chores to do.
Elijah killed 450 prophets in one afternoon.
What chores do you have this afternoon?

 

[Rick Otto]

Oh my goodness!
Not oral tradition!?

No, no, it just can't be.

That's right. A first-hand account isn't yet a tradition.

 

[Thekla]

Maybe you have too many chores to do.
Elijah killed 450 prophets in one afternoon.
What chores do you have this afternoon?

Hey - I have five kids at home; chores are my life.
Its my battle to remain 'in prayer' in a maelstrom

 

[Philothei]

since EV cannot be proven but neither can it be disproven through the Bible... your point is moot. That is to say that the EO and the RC believing in EV is an opinion trusting in the Tradition while there is non on the others side...

At least we have the fathers that are not "few" BTW but the 'tradition" of doubting the EV is unfortunately only 200-400 years old... so where does the scale tip?

I thought that was worth repeating here

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

since EV cannot be proven but neither can it be disproven through the Bible... your point is moot.

IMHO, it makes the DOGMA moot. It has no substantiation.

IF another denomination had a DOGMA that Mary was 15 feet tall and had pink hair, would it THEREFORE be accepted by you as dogma? I doubt it, even though perhaps you'd post that while it has confirmation within the Tradition and "Fathers" of THAT denomination as determined by THAT denomination, you'd point out that it has no confirmation outside of that. What's good for the goose is good for the gander....

All but perhaps 3 denominations (49,997 of 'em) regard this NOT as a matter of dogma (or even doctrine) ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. We agree with you, the Dogma of Mary Had No Sex Ever cannot be substantiated or denied - but has some old and broad embrace. We call this "pious opinion." I've NEVER posted that the view is WRONG or HERESY (all the accusations of heresy about Mary's sex life after Jesus was born have come only from 3 of the 50,000 denominations - and none of them are Protestant). What I've posted is what you now finally have agreed to: it has no substantiation. I've also said it is entirely moot (some seem to think it's even offensive - since the very discussion of how often Mary and Joseph had sex or not after Jesus was born seems to offend them - as therefore does their DOGMA - and I kinda agree with that). I don't deny it, I don't call ANYONE a hell-bound heretic worthly of being burned at the stake for their views on this (that comes from NO Protestant) - whether Our Lady had sex 5000 times, 500 times, 50 times, 5 times OR NEVER EVEN ONCE. THAT obsession is found in only 3 denominations and not (officially anyway) in ANY of the other 49,997.

That is to say that the EO and the RC believing in EV is an opinion trusting in the Tradition while there is non on the others side...

At least we have the fathers that are not "few" BTW but the 'tradition" of doubting the EV is unfortunately only 200-400 years old... so where does the scale tip?

Actually, BY FAR, the stronger Tradition which is MUCH older is to be silent on how often Mary and Joseph had sex after Jesus was born. We know of NONE who knew Mary or Joseph who ever said ANYTHING WHATSOEVER about it. Even the earliest "Fathers" of the RC and EO denominations didn't. THAT'S the oldest, strongest Tradition. To not have a dogma on how often She had sex. And that is the position of 49.997 denominations today.




Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




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[LittleLambofJesus]

Maybe you have too many chores to do.
Elijah killed 450 prophets in one afternoon.
What chores do you have this afternoon?

One of the most awsome events in the OT! I love that story

1 King 18:37 "Answer thou me YHWH! Answer thou me! and the people, this, shall know that Thou YHWH the Elohiym and Thou turn-around their heart backward"
38 And fire of YHWH is falling and is devouring the ascent-offering/05930 `olah, and the woods and the stones and the soil and the waters which in trench is licked up.

Reve 20:9 And they did ascend upon the breadth of the land and did *surround the camp of the Saints and the City, the beloved and descends Fire *from/out of the heaven *from the God* and devours them. [Ezkiel 38:22]

 

[Philothei]

We call this "pious opinion."

Why? If it is either truth or not ... why have an opinion if you do not know either way?
So some believe it even if they knwo they can be wrong?
starnge (!)

 

[Philothei]

I've also said it is entirely moot (some seem to think it's even offensive - since the very discussion of how often Mary and Joseph had sex or not after Jesus was born seems to offend them - as therefore does their DOGMA - and I kinda agree with that). I don't deny it, I don't call ANYONE a hell-bound heretic worthly of being burned at the stake for their views on this (that comes from NO Protestant) - whether Our Lady had sex 5000 times, 500 times, 50 times, 5 times OR NEVER EVEN ONCE. THAT obsession is found in only 3 denominations and not (officially anyway) in ANY of the other 49,997.

You are contradicting yourself Josiah because if you do not believe it then why "some of the Protestants" in your church do? The fact you call it in your church "pious opinion" does not make is lesser of a belief... It is still a belief but why believe it if it might be wrong? It does not make any sense... You either believe it IMHO or you do not. period. What is the purpose of saying some do and some don't if they can be either one wrong? Why would a church allow for such a dichotomy in belief. The Church is supposed to lead you to the "right dogma" not to lead you to doubt..

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

IMHO, it makes the DOGMA moot. It has no substantiation.

IF another denomination had a DOGMA that Mary was 15 feet tall and had pink hair, would it THEREFORE be accepted by you as dogma? I doubt it, even though perhaps you'd post that while it has confirmation within the Tradition and "Fathers" of THAT denomination as determined by THAT denomination, you'd point out that it has no confirmation outside of that. What's good for the goose is good for the gander....

All but perhaps 3 denominations (49,997 of 'em) regard this NOT as a matter of dogma (or even doctrine) ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. We agree with you, the Dogma of Mary Had No Sex Ever cannot be substantiated or denied - but has some old and broad embrace. We call this "pious opinion." I've NEVER posted that the view is WRONG or HERESY (all the accusations of heresy about Mary's sex life after Jesus was born have come only from 3 of the 50,000 denominations - and none of them are Protestant). What I've posted is what you now finally have agreed to: it has no substantiation. I've also said it is entirely moot (some seem to think it's even offensive - since the very discussion of how often Mary and Joseph had sex or not after Jesus was born seems to offend them - as therefore does their DOGMA - and I kinda agree with that). I don't deny it, I don't call ANYONE a hell-bound heretic worthly of being burned at the stake for their views on this (that comes from NO Protestant) - whether Our Lady had sex 5000 times, 500 times, 50 times, 5 times OR NEVER EVEN ONCE. THAT obsession is found in only 3 denominations and not (officially anyway) in ANY of the other 49,997 denominations.


I've also said it is entirely moot (some seem to think it's even offensive - since the very discussion of how often Mary and Joseph had sex or not after Jesus was born seems to offend them - as therefore does their DOGMA - and I kinda agree with that). I don't deny it, I don't call ANYONE a hell-bound heretic worthly of being burned at the stake for their views on this (that comes from NO Protestant) - whether Our Lady had sex 5000 times, 500 times, 50 times, 5 times OR NEVER EVEN ONCE. THAT obsession is found in only 3 denominations and not (officially anyway) in ANY of the other 49,997.


Actually, BY FAR, the stronger Tradition which is MUCH older is to be silent on how often Mary and Joseph had sex after Jesus was born. We know of NONE who knew Mary or Joseph who ever said ANYTHING WHATSOEVER about it. Even the earliest "Fathers" of the RC and EO denominations didn't. THAT'S the oldest, strongest Tradition. To not have a dogma on how often She had sex. And that is the position of 49.997 denominations today

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You are contradicting yourself Josiah

Nope. Nothing in what I posted is contradictory.

if you do not believe it then why "some of the Protestants" in your church do?

I don't believe it is a dogmatic fact that there is life on other planets, but there are some (I suspect) who are officially registered in my congregation that are of the opinion that there is. That does NOT mean it that it is DOGMA in my denomination that life DOES exist on other planets. Just because some individuals are of an opinion does not make such dogma in the denomination, nor does it mean that I'm contradicting myself.

The fact you call it in your church "pious opinion" does not make is lesser of a belief... It is still a belief but why believe it if it might be wrong? It does not make any sense... You either believe it IMHO or you do not. period.

In Protestantism, a "pious opinion" is a view that is NEITHER substantiated or denied by Scripture but is a historical, ecumenical viewpoint. It is not doctrine, much less dogma. It is permitted but not officially embraced. I suppose you could say that the official position is that it cannot be declared right or wrong - there is simply insufficient information to declare such either way.

I have no dogma on how often Mary had sex after Jesus was born - if at all. It seems to ME how often Our Lady had sex is none of my business. What ever happened to respect? To privacy?

Why would a church allow for such a dichotomy in belief. The Church is supposed to lead you to the "right dogma" not to lead you to doubt..

Then why doesn't your denomination have DOGMA on every single matter? If the EO doesn't address every possible view or question by declaring DOGMA (matters of highest importance and greatest certainty) or HERESY on every single one - then it's doing what you are accusing me of doing.


Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




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[CaliforniaJosiah]

Why? If it is either truth or not ... why have an opinion if you do not know either way? So some believe it even if they knwo they can be wrong? starnge (!)

Do you have a dogmatic insistance on whether Transubstantiation (as currently defined by the RCC) is HERESY or DOGMA? Your denomination doesn't....

Do you have a view on whether life might exist elsewhere in the universe - not a DOGMA (a matter of highest importance and certainty) but simply a view? On whether McCain was a better choice that Obama? If so, then you have an OPINION that could be wrong and are holding a view where your denomination does not (certainly not as DOGMA or HERESY!). When you said "yes" to your husband's marriage proposal, did you look in the Catechism of the EO to see if it had a DOGMA on whether you must marry specifically him - or if such is a heresy that will condemn you? Or did you proceed with your heart-felt view that this indeed was the right thing to do - knowing that such might at least theoretically not be the case? Kierkegaard spoke of "the leap of faith." It's not the same thing as saying, "This is DOGMA."


Every time a denomination embraces mystery OR does NOT dogmatically address some point, it is leaving things undefined dogmatically. Your denomination is actually well known for doing that. Odd that you would condemn such - it is one of the things I most admire about your denomination.



Now, where is the stronger evidence that Mary Had Sex EXACTLY zero times during her life - as a matter of highest importance and certainty? And how is such stronger than the earlier and universal view of simply not dogmatically insisting on how often She had sex (if at all) - the respectful silence position of 49,997 denominations as opposed to the 3 that shout SHE HAD SEX EXACTLY ZERO TIMES DURING HER LIFE - and this is a matter of highest importance and greatest certainty!" ?



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




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[Philothei]

I asked you a question how do you "allow" for people to have that "pious belief" in the EV but at the same time you say that you do not know... if the EV is true or not. Why you do not start by asking your fellow parishioners those who believe in EV why they do so? I mean if you do not know either way why believe in it anyways. If I were you I would not believe it since your church does not take a stand.... That is the contradiction right there...