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Perpetual virginity (not a hate thread)

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Secundulus

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1. If you are correct and every Christian taught this for 1800 years, then there is an earlier Tradition that was displaced by this one.

2. Yes, Luther embraced the concept as pious opinion. He never regarded it as dogma. Today some 99,998 denominations (if we accept our Orthodox sister's claim of 100,000 denominations) do not deny this; they just don't proclaim this. They are SILENT. Thus, they have nothing to prove.

3. IF you say (as a matter of dogmatic fact of highest importance) that there are 16 people living on Earth's Moon, then the "burden of proof" - the burden of substantiation lies with YOU. Don't try to pass the buck. UNLESS I have a position that there is some other number of persons (including none), then I have nothing to prove. Just because a position cannot be shown to be false doesn't make it right (try proving there ARE NOT 16 people on the Moon and you'll see my point, my friend).

4. Of the 100000 denomination, TWO have a view on Mary's ____ life after Jesus was born, INSISTING to the highest level that She was as PERPETUAL virgin, that She had no _____ EVER. They have it on the highest possible level. The ball is in your court.




.
We have nothing to prove as we only believe what the Church has always believed.

Your 100000 denominations are something less than 20% of Christianity. They are a small minority that differs in opinion even from the founders of their denominations. We have nothing to prove as we only believe what the Church has always believed.

So, the question is what have the modern day inventors of the traditions of men discovered that render 1800 years of belief to be in error. Have they discovered a new and secret manuscript? Have they been gifted by the Holy Spirit with the gift of prophesy? Did God hide this from the Church until the 19th Century? Or are these few simply smarter and better biblical interpreters than anyone who has gone before to include Luther and Calvin?
 
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Standing Up

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How do you explain this then? This was written well before the resurrection.

NASB95, Song of Solomon 4:9

"You have made my heart beat faster, my sister, my bride;
You have made my heart beat faster with a single glance of your eyes,​

With a single strand of your necklace.​

Haven't a clue, but it hasn't anything to do anyway with how those folks in Matthew asked about Jesus' physical sisters.

From your post #792 "sister, a term referring to physical or spiritual kinship." Vines and Strongs agree. There is no aunt reference, like with brother/uncle. Two choices. Physical or spiritual/ecclesiastical. Those folks who commented about Joseph, Mary, Jesus' brothers, and Jesus' sisters weren't speaking about spiritual sisters.
 
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Philothei

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Haven't a clue, but it hasn't anything to do anyway with how those folks in Matthew asked about Jesus' physical sisters.
hehehe...so you have solid historical evidence they were his "physical" sissters and also neglecting to see that adelfi can also mean cousin???? in Greek??? :D
 
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Standing Up

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hehehe...so you have solid historical evidence they were his "physical" sissters and also neglecting to see that adelfi can also mean cousin???? in Greek??? :D

You seem to be the only authority who thinks so. Vines and Strongs don't, nor does the quote (evidently ignored) by the person who made it, Secundulus--

sister, a term referring to physical or spiritual kinship. (Harper's)
 
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Secundulus

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1. If you are correct and Christians have affirmed this for 1800 years, then there is an earlier Tradition that was displaced by this one. .
When I said 1800 years I meant that nobody except heretics like the gnostics believed anything like this until around the 19th Century.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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We have nothing to prove as we only believe what the Church has always believed.


Then you've changed your mind in the last few minutes, because here's what you said before:"When everyone in the Church for 1800 years acknowledged the perpetual virginity...." Which is it?

I don't doubt that many believe it to be true. But that's not the issue of this thread. The issue is: Is it true?

The "ball" is in the court of two: the CC and EO. What's 'ya got? Come with the substantiation equal to the claim that confirms that Mary had no _____ EVER.




So, the question is what have the modern day inventors of the traditions of men discovered that render 1800 years of belief to be in error.

1. What was the Tradition for 200 years that your idea replaced? Why do you so easily dismiss that?

2. There ARE no new dogmas on this. Only TWO denominations have ANY dogma on this: the CC and EO. No other has any dogma. Or doctrine. Or official teaching. Or pious opinion. Or theory. Or pure speculation. Nope. Nothing to defend. YOU do. So, what's 'ya got?





Have they been gifted by the Holy Spirit with the gift of prophesy? Did God hide this from the Church until the 19th Century?

Since only two have a view on this, your question must be directed to them. Are they alone gifted with the gift of prophecy (and if so, why do they disagree on so many dogmas?). Did God hide this from the the CC and EO for 200 years?



.
 
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Philothei

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You seem to be the only authority who thinks so. Vines and Strongs don't.

Good for them... I take the father's authority who new better Greek over some scholars of the 20 th century... anyhow not all greek modern scholars agree with them...though :)
 
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Secundulus

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These arguments were dealt with by Jerome 1600 years ago.

Source. Translated by W.H. Fremantle, G. Lewis and W.G. Martley. From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. 6. Edited by Philip Schaff and Henry Wace. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1893.) Revised and edited for New Advent by Kevin Knight. <http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3007.htm>.

13. The last proposition of Helvidius was this, and it is what he wished to show when he treated of the first-born, that brethren of the Lord are mentioned in the Gospels. For example, Matthew 12:46 Behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, seeking to speak to him. And elsewhere, John 2:12 After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren. And again, John 7:3-4 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judæa, that your disciples also may behold the works which you do. For no man does anything in secret, and himself seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, manifest yourself to the world. And John adds, John 7:5 For even his brethren did not believe in him. Mark also and Matthew, And coming into his own country he taught them in their synagogues, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence has this man this wisdom, and mighty works? Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And his brethren James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Luke also in the Acts of the Apostles relates, Acts 1:14 These all with one accord continued steadfastly in prayer, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. Paul the Apostle also is at one with them, and witnesses to their historical accuracy, And I went up by revelation, but other of the apostles saw I none, save Peter and James the Lord's brother. And again in another place, 1 Corinthians 9:4-5 Have we no right to eat and drink? Have we no right to lead about wives even as the rest of the Apostles, and the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? And for fear any one should not allow the evidence of the Jews, since it was they from whose mouth we hear the name of His brothers, but should maintain that His countrymen were deceived by the same error in respect of the brothers into which they fell in their belief about the father, Helvidius utters a sharp note of warning and cries, The same names are repeated by the Evangelists in another place, and the same persons are there brethren of the Lord and sons of Mary. Matthew says, And many women were there (doubtless at the Lord's cross) beholding from afar, which had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee. Mark also, And there were also women beholding from afar, among whom were both Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the Less and of Joses, and Salome; and in the same place shortly after, And many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem. Luke too, Luke 24:10 Now there were Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and the other women with them.

14. My reason for repeating the same thing again and again is to prevent him from raising a false issue and crying out that I have withheld such passages as make for him, and that his view has been torn to shreds not by evidence of Scripture, but by evasive arguments. Observe, he says, James and Joses are sons of Mary, and the same persons who were called brethren by the Jews. Observe, Mary is the mother of James the Less and of Joses. And James is called the less to distinguish him from James the greater, who was the son of Zebedee, as Mark elsewhere states, And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid. And when the sabbath was past, they bought spices, that they might come and anoint him. And, as might be expected, he says: What a poor and impious view we take of Mary, if we hold that when other women were concerned about the burial of Jesus, she His mother was absent; or if we invent some kind of a second Mary; and all the more because the Gospel of S. John testifies that she was there present, when the Lord upon the cross commended her, as His mother and now a widow, to the care of John. Or must we suppose that the Evangelists were so far mistaken and so far mislead us as to call Mary the mother of those who were known to the Jews as brethren of Jesus?

15. What darkness, what raging madness rushing to its own destruction! You say that the mother of the Lord was present at the cross, you say that she was entrusted to the disciple John on account of her widowhood and solitary condition: as if upon your own showing, she had not four sons, and numerous daughters, with whose solace she might comfort herself? You also apply to her the name of widow which is not found in Scripture. And although you quote all instances in the Gospels, the words of John alone displease you. You say in passing that she was present at the cross, that you may not appear to have omitted it on purpose, and yet not a word about the women who were with her. I could pardon you if you were ignorant, but I see you have a reason for your silence. Let me point out then what John says, John 19:25 But there were standing by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. No one doubts that there were two apostles called by the name James, James the son of Zebedee, and James the son of Alphæus. Do you intend the comparatively unknown James the Less, who is called in Scripture the son of Mary, not however of Mary the mother of our Lord, to be an apostle, or not? If he is an apostle, he must be the son of Alphæus and a believer in Jesus, For neither did his brethren believe in him. If he is not an apostle, but a third James (who he can be I cannot tell), how can he be regarded as the Lord's brother, and how, being a third, can he be called less to distinguish him from greater, when greater and less are used to denote the relations existing, not between three, but between two? Notice, moreover, that the Lord's brother is an apostle, since Paul says, Galatians 1:18-19 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and tarried with him fifteen days. But other of the Apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. And in the same Epistle, Galatians 2:9 And when they perceived the grace that was given unto me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, etc. And that you may not suppose this James to be the son of Zebedee, you have only to read the Acts of the Apostles, and you will find that the latter had already been slain by Herod. The only conclusion is that the Mary who is described as the mother of James the Less was the wife of Alphæus and sister of Mary the Lord's mother, the one who is called by John the Evangelist Mary of Clopas, whether after her father, or kindred, or for some other reason. But if you think they are two persons because elsewhere we read, Mary the mother of James the Less, and here, Mary of Clopas, you have still to learn that it is customary in Scripture for the same individual to bear different names. Raguel, Moses' father-in-law, is also called Jethro. Gedeon, without any apparent reason for the change, all at once becomes Jerubbaal. Ozias, king of Judah, has an alternative, Azarias. Mount Tabor is called Itabyrium. Again Hermon is called by the Phenicians Sanior, and by the Amorites Sanir. The same tract of country is known by three names, Negebh, Teman, and Darom in Ezekiel. Peter is also called Simon and Cephas. Judas the zealot in another Gospel is called Thaddaeus. And there are numerous other examples which the reader will be able to collect for himself from every part of Scripture.
 
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Philothei

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So, what's 'ya got?

we got the same tradition that confirmed the Bible comfirming the Ever Virginity....what do you got? An opinion based on 200 years of 'doubt" not solid proof...and you claim that to 'doubt" is better than to believe a 1800 year's tradition....starting with those who gave us the Bible....A bit too illogical for my standard... :(
 
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Standing Up

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Good for them... I take the father's authority who new better Greek over some scholars of the 20 th century... anyhow not all greek modern scholars agree with them...though :)

Well, we do have "it is written".

But what greek modern scholars do you have (not Vines, not Strongs, not Harpers)?

Could you quote one or two? We know that brother may mean uncle, but so far we only have from three authorities/witnesses that sister means sister (physical or spiritual, and those folks that Matthew is quoting weren't speaking spiritual).

:groupray:
 
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Secundulus

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1. What was the Tradition for 200 years that your idea replaced? Why do you so easily dismiss that?.
You are mistaken. It has been the belief from the beginning until modern day inventors of traditions of men started teaching something else around 200 years ago.

What took place 200 years ago that suddenly gave these men such new insight into the scriptures?
 
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Philothei

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Okie standing up will look into the other thread and find you the sources I did the reasearch then I am not going to go dig again.... Sister and brothers are the same used...as a term for people who are near the family preferably cousin/neices etc. it is common usage in the OT Secundulus posted the Song of Solomon where the 'bride" is called sister it is a name of endearment... Why would the people not call his family females "sisters" ? it was common to use it then as 'community" was so close nit..(spe?)
 
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Standing Up

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Okie standing up will look into the other thread and find you the sources I did the reasearch then I am not going to go dig again.... Sister and brothers are the same used...as a term for people who are near the family preferably cousin/neices etc. it is common usage in the OT Secundulus posted the Song of Solomon where the 'bride" is called sister it is a name of endearment... Why would the people not call his family females "sisters" ? it was common to use it then as 'community" was so close nit..(spe?)

Thank you for the time and effort.

Like I've said, Vines, Strongs, Harpers all simply identify sister as sister- physical or spiritual. They do not say that the greek word sister may mean aunt.

They do, however, say brother may mean uncle, as you point out. But not for sister.

As well, the folks quoted in Matthew who say, Jesus had sisters, certainly weren't involved in some 2000 year old, hmmm, "contest". Obviously they were referring to His physical sisters. That is what the greek word meant.

They said Jesus' brothers, but maybe they meant His uncles. (Course did He have four uncles at that time?). Anyway, they said also Jesus' sisters. That word according to Vines, Strongs, and Harpers only means sister.
 
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lionroar0

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Since only two have a view on this, your question must be directed to them. Are they alone gifted with the gift of prophecy (and if so, why do they disagree on so many dogmas?). Did God hide this from the the CC and EO for 200 years?
Irrelevant as the EV is something that was and is believed by the Church when the Church was one and it is something that was believed by the reformers themselves.

What occurred two hundred years ago that replaced what everyone believed? Did God hide something from even the reformers? Who were these men that decided that the EV was wrong? Did they have the gift of prophecy from the Holy Spirit? Did the Holy Spirit give these men an insight into Scripture that wasn't there before?

The burden of proof is on your court as the EV has always been part of the Church.
 
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Thekla

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What?

We're discussing your insistence that according to the grammar of koine Greek, the verb "to know" in Luke 1:34 MUST mean perpetuity.


I have asked for a quote from the post/s where I state that in must mean in perpetuity.

AGAIN.....

The point was made by our Orthodox sister that the Bible confirms the PERPETUAL virginity of Mary, that Mary had no _____ EVER. I understandably asked for those Scripture(s). One was given, Luke 1:34. You jumped on the bandwagon and have ever since insisted that it does just that since the Greek verb mandates perpetuality, that Mary had no ____ EVER (the issue of this thread, the point of the reference to that verse).

As I have pointed out, the context determines the duration of the action/condition described by the verb (present tense). Folks don't have "___" in heaven. The shall covers the future and is not limited by any further limiting statement. It is believed that folks do not have "___" in heaven. Thus chastity is not reversed at death, either.


I have never stated that the present tense mandates "perpetuity".


If anything, you have been amazingly persistent in your position that the grammar here MANDATES perpetuality. I've asked you repeatedly for something from any Greek grammar books that supports your assertion and the foundation of your entire argument now for many pages of posts - but you have consistently ignored that.

Please quote the post/s where you have asked for a statement from a Greek grammar. I must have missed that.

I have made a bit of a study, using my Greek grammar book and the net to try to see some confirmation of your foundational apologetic, but I could find nothing.

You will not find in your resources that the present tense mandates perpetuity because as far as I know that is not accurate. Nor have I ever stated that.



I looked at dozens and dozens of translations - including a number of Catholic ones - surely the Greek scholars who translate from koine Greek to English would know if the only grammatically possible translation is perpetuity, if the greek MANDATES this. But NONE so indicated. I could find NO translation that says, "I will never know a man" or "I am a perpetual virgin." Not even Catholic ones. Not even very old CAtholic ones. Since you wouldn't supply me with ANY grammatical confirmation of your point, I tried to find some for you. But I found nothing. Only that the present active MAY continue into the future, that it doesn't PRECLUDE such. Yet NO translator, NO Bible Society - Protestant or Catholic - seems to be aware of this solid rule of which you speak.

Again, by misrepresenting my position.

Can you supply me with even ONE translation of this verse that supplies the MANDATED verbage: Mary was a virgin PERPETUALLY?

Can you find even one post of mine that states that the present tense mandates perpetuity ?
You DO recall: that's the issue we're discussing. Does this verse confirm that Mary had no ____ E.V.E.R. That She was/is a PERPETUAL virgin. The insistence was made that it does and you've taken the ball on that for a long time now insisting the GRAMMAR of this verse MANDATES that understanding - this verse requires as a rule of Greek grammar - that Mary died a virgin.

I have never stated that the present tense mandates perpetuity.
I have stated that the context determines the duration of the condition.
I exhibited this with the verse you quoted from Romans by quoting a verse later in the passage which exhibits the ongoing duration of the condition Paul describes in the verse you quoted.I have quoted other verses which exhibit ongoing action/condition per context.



Then you entirely failed to see the context of our discussion and didn't read the title of this thread....

THE WHOLE POINT is perpetuality. The WHOLE POINT is Mary had no _____ ever. THAT'S what we're discussing. What do did you think a thread entitled, "The PERPETUAL Virginity of Mary" was about?

Future includes until death unless otherwise limited by context. I asked you to show any limit for the future of "shall". After death there is not the opportunity to reverse any condition.

.






1. Then AGAIN, share in whatever koine grammar book you have where it says the present active indicative mandates perpetuity.

Why do you keep misrepresenting what I say ?

2. WHAT context? That you believe Mary had no ____ ever? YES, if you impose your thought into a text as the "context" then I can see how you view the text in conformity with that; but eisegesis ALWAYS does that: self simply agrees with self. YOU are supplying that context, the text does not.

The context is the future tense of "shall" in Mary's statement.

3. As we've seen, the "shall" does NOT supply that context. If it did, I'd suspect that at least ONE Bible - even if just a very biased Catholic one - would translate it the ONLY GRAMATICALLY PERMISSIBLE way you INSIST is allowed, "I will not know a man for all perpetuity." NO Bible soceity, no board of translators I can find seems to be aware of this grammatical mandate you insist exists.

Why do you suspect that ?
I have never stated such a "grammatical mandate".
It is your own invention.

4. There's no reason - logically or otherwise - for you to impose your speculation about the situation as the "context." Again, the text doesn't present your speculation, YOU do. It's YOUR context imposed upon the text: self agreeing with self. I personally think that my speculation: that tradition about the timing of the Annunciation and Incarnation is CORRECT, that the angel was CORRECT and that Mary was CORRECT is more likely - in which case there's NO implication of perpetuality here. But you didn't even consider that - because it's not your speculation. Frankly, NO speculation has any relevance at all, that's not the context, that's an imposition.

Your speculation confuses real time with retrospective knowledge.
5. NOW - after all these pages of posts - you seem to be backing off of your entire point (and maybe the issue of this thread). IF all you are now saying is that some sense of future is IMPLIED - swell. That's MOOT to the issue we were discussing, moot to the issue of this thread, moot to the dogma, moot to the claim about this verse, and it doesn't even disagree with me. Sigh. Now, do you or don't you agree with the point you've been making: This verse confirms via Greek Grammar that Mary was a PERPETUAL virgin? If not....... :doh:

I am delineating between created and uncreated/eternal time; I have not backed off my position. It seemed that you did not understand the difference between the duration of time on the earth and in heaven and the effect of death on the human body.






Let's try this one more time......


1. The topic here is that Mary had no ____ EVER. That she was a PERPETUAL Virgin. Read the title of the thread.

2. Our Orthodox sister stated that this position (read # 1 again) is confirmed by Scripture. Not hinted at. Not denied by. Not made possible. Confirmed.

3. I asked for the verse(s).

4. I was given one. Luke 1:34.

5. I noted that it says nothing to confirm the topic, indeed, nothing about it at all. Nothing that says She was a PERPETUAL virgin, that She had no ______ EVER. (See # 1)

6. You jumped. You insisted that I was wrong and your Orthodox sister correct.

7. Your basis was that the GRAMMAR - koine Greek grammar - MANDATES, requires - that the position is true. See # 1 again.

8. For PAGES now, you have gone on and on and on insisting that the GRAMMAR of the koine Greek verb here MANDATES an understanding of Her PERPETUAL virginity (the sole topic under discussion - read the title of the thread); you've continued your issues that the verse confirms the issue: Mary had no _____ E.V.E.R.

9. Once again, I have no position. I honestly and respectfully am puzzled - I truely and sincerely am - why this is so very difficult for some here to understand. I need to say this at least daily in virtually every thread on this topic whenever we have these discussions. I'm like the 99,998 denominations out of 100000 - I have no position. Thus, I have no position to defend or substantiate. You keep trying to pass the buck. Don't give it to me - I don't have a position. I'm silent. Just like 99,998 denominations.

10. The "ball" is in your court. Only those WITH a position need to defend a position. And if that is a position of highest possible level - then the resulting substantiation need also be to the highest possible level. I need not substaniate my no position. YOU need to substantiate your DOGMA. I'm not saying you are wrong, you are dogmatically insisting you are right. Okay. Balls in your court.....

11. For several pages now (a good part of my day!) you have insisted the koine grammar of this verb in this Scripture does exactly that: Proves Her PERPETUAL virginity (see #1). But you've failed to show ANY grammatical support for your foundational apologetic.








AGAIN....

I don't know when this idea that Mary had no _____ EVER began to develop. Others have often pointed out the SAME
Gregory of Nyssa as saying that this verb in this text means Mary was a PERPETUAL virgin. None earlier than this has ever been suggested to me. THAT'S what I said.

If you know of one who, BEFORE 400 AD, insists that the verb tense in this verse grammatically must mean that Mary was a PERPETUAL virgin, then I asked you to please share it. You haven't.

That's what I said.


If you are insistent on misrepresenting my statements, how can you think that there will be any fruit to any discussion ?
 
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lionroar0

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I do not see Paul preaching EV nor Peter nor Timothy.. So from the earliest of the church this was not preached or written about.

I think you should read Theklas posts as she has been showing that it was written about in the Scriptures in a specific place.
 
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