[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] When should we change our reasoning / beliefs?

[Chriliman]

And that's what is happening here. You're claiming to have truth, people are honestly questioning if you can demonstrate that you actually do have this truth, and you can't. The obvious conclusion is that you're confusing truth with a guess or a feeling you have about something or another.

Yet, if you don't think truth is infinite and timeless, meaning no man can alter it, man can only withhold truth in the form of a lie. If you don't think truth can be thought of in this way, then you must think truth is finite and if this is true then truth will eventually end and at that point all thats left is meaninglessness, therefore, if you think this is true then truth actually does not have any meaning.

This is my argument for the existence of infinite timeless truth. Then only way to say my argument isn't sound is to say truth is finite, which inevitably renders truth meaningless as I've explained above.

What this argument also allows me to do is argue that not only is truth infinite and timeless, but love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, authority, judgment and everything else we humans attest to as being good are also infinite and timeless, meaning we have no control over these because we are not the cause of them. All of these qualities are from God not from man.

What this argument also allows me to do is give a reason for all the negative things in our world which we call evil. Evil is not infinite and timeless, evil is finite and based on time, evil was caused by beings with free will, free will meaning free from God's perfect will. These beings with free will are also not infinite and timeless, therefore, they have a beginning but no end, therefore, evil has a beginning but no end.

So what is a perfectly loving and merciful God going to do with beings with free will who have not chosen His will, but instead chose evil? He's going to sacrifice something very dear to himself in order to gain the love of those with free will who will accept the sacrifice, this sacrifice is God's own Son. If God's own Son did not willingly sacrifice himself on the cross, salvation would not be possible, but since he did willingly sacrifice himself, he has cleansed all humans who accept this sacrifice from all sin caused by evil. So if one accepts this sacrifice and then dies, they will be united with God's perfect will and evil will be separated from them. Unfortunately, when someone dies who has not accepted the sacrifice they will be judged and potentially found to be guilty and forever united with evil, instead of God.

Now from our perspective this judgment day has not come yet, so those who die not believing in Jesus aren't necessarily separated from God from our perspective. Now obviously you and me are not dead yet so its impossible for us know what actually happens to those who die not believing in Jesus, I know in revelation it talks about the book of life which has the names of those who've accepted Jesus, but there is also other books, but it does not go into detail about these books. It also says some will be thrown into the lake of fire, which is representative of being forever united with evil and forever separated from God. Sorry for the super long explanation, but these concepts are imperative for you to understand and hopefully deem them worthy of further consideration. If you honestly investigate Christian theology, it does all make perfect sense and like I've said before, not believing something that makes perfect sense, is just unreasonable.

Back to the topic at hand, when should we decide to change our reasoning/beliefs?

 

[Chriliman]

It's right there. If you have knowledge of God then belief in God is an irrelevance. Belief of an idea and knowledge of that idea as a fact are mutually exclusive concepts.

When I say gain knowledge, I mean getting taught the truth. My son doesn't automatically believe in God, I have to teach him the truth and then he accepts the truth (believes) if he has good reason to believe. After he believes, God takes over from there and is the source of all knowledge for him. God was always the source of all knowledge, but my son didn't believe that before I taught him that. I had to teach him, in order for him to believe and have access to the source of knowledge, get it?

 

[Crump]

When I say gain knowledge, I mean getting taught the truth. My son doesn't automatically believe in God, I have to teach him the truth and then he accepts the truth (believes) if he has good reason to believe. After he believes, God takes over from there and is the source of all knowledge for him. God was always the source of all knowledge, but my son didn't believe that before I taught him that. I had to teach him, in order for him to believe and have access to the source of knowledge, get it?

No, I don't get it. I don't see how your claimed 'knowledge of God' has been acquired. Please tell us again how you did this.

 

[com7fy8]

when should we decide to change our reasoning/beliefs?

When reality, not only "reason", proves we need to change.

I think our own ability to reason is imperfect; so it needs to be the caboose and not the train track (Proverbs 3:5-6).

Jesus is the track >

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

It is clear how people's reason has not worked to get them with God. Their standards of their own making have served only to keep them with themselves.

If you are molten nickel at the center of the earth, I can tell you there is sunshine and refreshing water and air fragranced by flowers, but no amount of my say-so and reasoning can mean anything to you, if you are molten nickel at the center of the earth > because you have no experience, at all, of what sunshine is, or refreshing water, or flower-fragranced air! Not only can't you accept my reasoning, but you can't even understand what I'm talking about, and therefore you will "likely" argue against what I do not even mean.

Because, for a blob of molten nickel at the center of the earth, what can the words "refreshing water, funshine, and flower-fragranced air" mean??

 

[Chriliman]

No, I don't get it. I don't see how your claimed 'knowledge of God' has been acquired. Please tell us again how you did this.

Basically, I was taught about Jesus and what He did for humanity. I was taught this from when I was a child. For me personally this truth didn't actually become a reality until this past year, when I began really questioning my faith. I did a deep study of science and Christian prophecy and theology. Ultimately, I went through a deep dark time and really tough spiritual battle where evil was trying to convince me I've gone to far in finding truth. The only way I was able to get through this darkest time of my life was by calling on the name of Jesus for help and inevitably I've gave my all to Jesus because I would have destroyed myself if I didn't. I've been learning amazing things ever since and have never had stronger faith. Praise God!

 

[Crump]

Basically, I was taught about Jesus and what He did for humanity. I was taught this from when I was a child. For me personally this truth didn't actually become a reality until this past year, when I began really questioning my faith. I did a deep study of science and Christian prophecy and theology. Ultimately, I went through a deep dark time and really tough spiritual battle where evil was trying to convince me I've gone to far in finding truth. The only way I was able to get through this darkest time of my life was by calling on the name of Jesus for help and inevitably I've gave my all to Jesus because I would have destroyed myself if I didn't. I've been learning amazing things ever since and have never had stronger faith. Praise God!

I see that what passes for knowledge in your vocabulary would be understood as belief by most others. This may be why you have difficulty distinguishing any clear difference between the two terms. There seems to be no great point in continuing this discussion if we cannot even agree that knowledge and belief are separate concepts.

 

[Chriliman]

I see that what passes for knowledge in your vocabulary would be understood as belief by most others. This may be why you have difficulty distinguishing any clear difference between the two terms. There seems to be no great point in continuing this discussion if we cannot even agree that knowledge and belief are separate concepts.

I've learned that all knowledge is from God. Do you agree?

Belief is involuntary, meaning we can't just decide to believe something without good reason. If your believing something without good reason, there's a chance you're believing a lie so you'd better make sure that what you're believing is actually true if you value truth. I hope we can agree on this.

 

[Chriliman]

I should clarify that we can decide to believe something without good reason/evidence, but we should not do this because it can lead to deception.

 

[oi_antz]

(Pm'd, sorry against rules - apologetics)

 

[bhsmte]

I should clarify that we can decide to believe something without good reason/evidence, but we should not do this because it can lead to deception.

How does one try to assure they aren't deceiving themselves?

 

[paulm50]

One has to first gain knowledge of God and then decide to believe in God and then God will begin to reveal himself to them in only the way God can and then this person will be given strong faith and understanding through the power of Jesus Christ and be able know the truth because they've submited to the truth.

God has made it clear to me and many others that all creation is because of Jesus and all authority in heaven and earth has been given to Jesus. So yes I know the truth, but I first had to be taught then I had to believe and now God lets me know and understand.

I respect your opinion, so please tell me again how you think I'm confusing knowledge and belief?

So god is trying to make it hard to follow him. This makes it easy for other gods and different versions of god to gain hold. Why do you think god is doing this?

 

[Crump]

I've learned that all knowledge is from God. Do you agree?

No, I do not agree. I learned that 2 + 2 = 4. That is universal knowledge: even a remote tribesman in the Amazon, who had never heard of Jesus or God, (if any such still exist) would agree with me about that.

Belief is involuntary, meaning we can't just decide to believe something without good reason. If your believing something without good reason, there's a chance you're believing a lie so you'd better make sure that what you're believing is actually true if you value truth. I hope we can agree on this.

Again I do not agree. Belief, as you imply, is a product of reason - therefore it is not involuntary. Belief that is not acquired by reason is not true belief - it is superstition.

Yes, there is always a chance that what you believe is incorrect. We are not infallible, therefore our reasoning cannot be infallible. Belief always admits the possibility of doubt. Many saints and prophets have had well documented moments of doubt; even our Lord, during his passion, was touched by doubt. Reason begins with doubt. Indeed, without doubt there can be no reasoning because doubt provides the intellectual space in which we are able to reason.

When, or if, you establish that what you believe to be true is indeed true, then it is no longer belief. It has become knowledge, and knowledge admits of no doubt.

So god is trying to make it hard to follow him. This makes it easy for other gods and different versions of god to gain hold. Why do you think god is doing this?

Faith is not knowledge, it is belief. Our Lord asks us to have faith, because he knows that we cannot have knowledge of our salvation. He knows that we must begin with doubt and must reason before we can decide to believe. So our faith is not blind, it is not an unreasoning, unthinking, involuntary faith - it is not superstition. We believe he will save us because we have reasons to be confident that he will never break his promise to us.

So, knowledge is a matter of fact.
Belief is a matter of reason that, even where no doubt exists in the mind of the believer, admits the possibility of doubt.

 

[Chriliman]

No, I do not agree. I learned that 2 + 2 = 4. That is universal knowledge: even a remote tribesman in the Amazon, who had never heard of Jesus or God, (if any such still exist) would agree with me about that.

God knows everything at all times, so its quite impossible for any knowledge that has any meaning to not be from him. The only knowledge he did not cause was the knowledge of evil. Free willed beings caused this knowledge. God cannot know evil because he is perfectly good, but he knows its a problem, which is why he sent his son as a sacrifice to destroy it. His son became aware of evil because he was tempted by satan himself, yet Jesus thankfully overcame and willingly sacrificed himself becoming sin so that we can have eternal life. Of course only God knows the intricacies of how all this is possible, but it allows us to have faith in knowing we are saved by the grace of God. In the end we don't have to know everything, and in fact can't know everything, we just have to trust in Him who does know everything and trust that he will fulfill our hearts every desire for truth love and knowledge.

Again I do not agree. Belief, as you imply, is a product of reason - therefore it is not involuntary. Belief that is not acquired by reason is not true belief - it is superstition.

Yes, there is always a chance that what you believe is incorrect. We are not infallible, therefore our reasoning cannot be infallible. Belief always admits the possibility of doubt. Many saints and prophets have had well documented moments of doubt; even our Lord, during his passion, was touched by doubt. Reason begins with doubt. Indeed, without doubt there can be no reasoning because doubt provides the intellectual space in which we are able to reason.

When, or if, you establish that what you believe to be true is true, then it is no longer belief. It has become knowledge, and knowledge admits of no doubt.

Faith is not knowledge, it is belief. Our Lord asks us to have faith, because he knows that we cannot have knowledge of our salvation. He knows that we must begin with doubt and must reason before we can decide to believe. So our faith is not blind, it is not an unreasoning, unthinking, involuntary faith - it is not superstition. We believe he will save us because we have reasons to be confident that he will never break his promise to us.

So, knowledge is matter of fact.
Belief is a matter of reason that, even where no doubt exists in the mind of the believer, admits the possibility of doubt.

I think we're arguing for the same thing here. When a human comes into existence they have no choice but to believe something. Reality is very convincing therefore we believe its real. However, some contradict their original belief that reality is real and begin to assume it could possibly not be real. This is where atheism comes from. The first human to assume something was Eve, when she assumed that the truth of God may not be the only truth. She fell for satan's lie that there is more truth to be had than what God was offering as truth, which is the actual absolute truth. Obviously there is no truth in satan because he objectively knew of God and yet thought he could be better than God, thus being cast out of heaven for such evil thoughts. Again, the dynamic between God and satan is something that must be believed because we were not there when satan was cast out.

We must have faith that God will give us understanding in regards to satan, if understanding is even needed. It may be that satan will never be fully understood by us simply because we will be completely separated from him for eternity. Those who don't accept Jesus as there Lord and savior may be the ones who get complete understanding of satan and will never be able to separate themselves from that understanding. Interesting...

Either way I think we are arguing for the same thing, you might of just assumed I don't understand the difference between knowledge and beliefs, when in fact I do. No problem, we're all learning together

 

[Chriliman]

So god is trying to make it hard to follow him. This makes it easy for other gods and different versions of god to gain hold. Why do you think god is doing this?

God is not trying to make it hard for you follow him. Satan/evil within yourself is trying to make it hard for you to believe in God and accept the truth of Jesus. Once you realize you're being deceived you'll realize the only truth that matters is the truth of Jesus Christ.

 

[Chriliman]

How does one try to assure they aren't deceiving themselves?

By being honest with yourself and others at all times.

 

[paulm50]

God is not trying to make it hard for you follow him. Satan/evil within yourself is trying to make it hard for you to believe in God and accept the truth of Jesus. Once you realize you're being deceived you'll realize the only truth that matters is the truth of Jesus Christ.

So why are Christians a minority 31%, and even within the Christian faith so split?

Why does god allow satan to deceive us?

I would think a god that loves us, wouldn't want confusion and deception, which has led to the deaths of so many.

By being honest with yourself and others at all times.

That demands taking in all the information available, not limiting it to one viewpoint. One has to first question the information one is limiting oneself to.

 

[Chriliman]

So why are Christians a minority 31%, and even within the Christian faith so split?

Why does god allow satan to deceive us?

God allows deception in order to teach truth.

I would think a god that loves us, wouldn't want confusion and deception, which has led to the deaths of so many.

God does not want confusion and deception, which is why He sent His son to experience confusion and deception and overcome it by willingly sacrificing himself and conquering it by being raised from the dead. If you put your trust in Jesus you will no longer be confused, the truth will be revealed. God is currently trying to teach you something, you just haven't realized yet what it is he's trying to teach you.

That demands taking in all the information available, not limiting it to one viewpoint. One has to first question the information one is limiting oneself to.

True

 

[Archaeopteryx]

God does not want confusion and deception, which is why He sent His son to experience confusion and deception and overcome it by willingly sacrificing himself and conquering it by being raised from the dead. If you put your trust in Jesus you will no longer be confused, the truth will be revealed. God is currently trying to teach you something, you just haven't realized yet what it is he's trying to teach you.

What do you mean by "no longer be confused"? It seems that Christians are not necessarily less confused than non-Christians, particularly regarding the big questions. Some are certainly more confident, but let's not confound elevated confidence with the absence of confusion.

 

[Chriliman]

What do you mean by "no longer be confused"?

Well thats a tough question because there's seemly endless amounts of ways for people to become confused. The main point is that confusion comes from evil and deception, it does not come from God. God has sent His son to die and be raised from the dead in order to give us something to believe in that destroys all confusion. However, from our perspective, this takes time to learn and realize this truth. From God's perspective its already done, simply because He is infinite and timeless. God already knows whether or not you're saved, even though you may not know it yet. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of all knowledge. In other words the fear of the Lord is the beginning of clearing all confusion.

It seems that Christians are not necessarily less confused than non-Christians, particularly regarding the big questions. Some are certainly more confident, but let's not confound elevated confidence with the absence of confusion.

Put simply, if you don't know that your confusion has been destroyed by Jesus, then you are still confused. I understand this is difficult to believe, but give it time, I don't believe God is done with you yet.

Btw I'm still waiting on your PM about your testimony

 

[Davian]

One has to first gain knowledge of God

From what you described, you did not do that. You simply were given someone else's religious opinion.

and then decide to believe in God

How so? Did you just one day decide, "Today, I will believe in gods"? Can you decide not to believe today, and change back tomorrow?

and then God will begin to reveal himself to them in only the way God can

In your imagination, it would seem.

and then this person will be given strong faith and understanding through the power of Jesus Christ and be able know the truth because they've submited to the truth.

The "truth" being their own religious opinion.

God has made it clear to me

How so? Do you hear voices?

and many others

How do you know they are not lying, so as not to hurt your feelings?

that all creation is because of Jesus and all authority in heaven and earth has been given to Jesus. So yes I know the truth, but I first had to be taught then I had to believe and now God lets me know and understand.

How circular.

I respect your opinion, so please tell me again how you think I'm confusing knowledge and belief?

Your continued proffering of your religious opinion (belief) as knowledge. That you believe it does not make it true.