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[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] When should we change our reasoning / beliefs?

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Chriliman

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If I told you it rained 4 inches one year ago in the city that I live, you would have means to objectively verify what I am saying is true or not.

If I told you I owned a certain automobile, there would be means I could provide you, that would objectively and independently verify what I am saying is true.

If I said I graduated from a certain college, there are means I could use to show you this was true, with objective verifiable means.

So, there are claims of truth that certainly can be verified independently and objectively, as being true.

I agree those truths can be verified, my question is why would I have any reason to not trust you at your word? Why would I feel a need to verify these truth claims?

Another example is if you were alone and you broke my favorite art piece by accident and instead of telling me the truth you say you don't know what happened to it. Sure I could carry out an investigation to find out the truth, but what if I can't determine the truth by objective means? It would then be on you to simply confess the truth and then I would realize you were lying to me. It would then be on me to forgive you and I would because I've been forgiven of all my wrong doings, every last one of them has been forgiven, through the blood of Jesus Christ. This would not be possible if I didn't confess the wrong doings that were burdening my heart. Confess and accept God's forgiveness thought Jesus Christ and you will know the truth and be set free from the bondage of deception.
 
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oi_antz

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There seems to be some argument being made that no truth can exist that is incontestable. Logically that cannot be true because it is a self defeating argument. Not only is it logically false but it can be demonstrated by practical experiment to be false. There are demonstrable truths which cannot be contested by any sane person and which are transcendent of time and space.
Fair enough comment, though the definition of 'sanity' in this statement probably is contestable when applied to context of less tangible truths.
 
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bhsmte

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I agree those truths can be verified, my question is why would I have any reason to not trust you at your word? Why would I feel a need to verify these truth claims?

Another example is if you were alone and you broke my favorite art piece by accident and instead of telling me the truth you say you don't know what happened to it. Sure I could carry out an investigation to find out the truth, but what if I can't determine the truth by objective means? It would then be on you to simply confess the truth and then I would realize you were lying to me. It would then be on me to forgive you and I would because I've been forgiven of all my wrong doings, every last one of them has been forgiven, through the blood of Jesus Christ. This would not be possible if I didn't confess the wrong doings that were burdening my heart. Confess and accept God's forgiveness thought Jesus Christ and you will know the truth and be set free from the bondage of deception.

The moral of the story is; the truth of a claim can be independently and objectively verified as true, in many cases.

That is all.
 
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Chriliman

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The moral of the story is; the truth of a claim can be independently and objectively verified as true, in many cases.

That is all.

Sure, this is true only if you ignore the fact that not all truth can be independently and objectively verified. The fact that you're ignoring this fact, informs me that you're not being completely honest with yourself. This is the truth that I've just demonstrated through your statements. Problem for you is that its a very personal truth, which are always the hardest to confess. It takes courage to confess the deepest most personal truths, but the reward is better than you can even imagine!
 
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Davian

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Proof that you are deluding yourself into thinking that I'm claiming to be infallible when I'm clearly not.
If you are not infallible, why not use an external, objective reference to validate your beliefs, instead of introspection?
More delusion on your part because my posts are clearly not meaningless.
You continue to preach your religion in an unconvincing manner. I see no meaning in that.
 
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Davian

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No I don't.
Try reading it this way: "Please remember the scripture that says the [god] has blinded those who cannot see, and remain patient with them (holy), as [god] uses your words to break through that darkness."

How many gods are we talking about here?
That is possible. I am not infallible. I do not try to deceive people though, especially on this website, as I discuss matters pertaining to truth.
How do you know you have the truth, and that you are not deceived about it?
Anytime.:)
 
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Chriliman

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If you are not infallible, why not use an external, objective reference to validate your beliefs, instead of introspection?

You continue to preach your religion in an unconvincing manner. I see no meaning in that.

I know you'll agree with the statement I'm about to make, but the fact that I'm stating it first and you're not means I've realized the truth before you have.

If there is something wrong with me internally, either with my thinking or emotions, it will be impossible to find truth externally. I must first be sound internally then I can reliably and honestly find truth externally.

Now explain to me how I could possibly make this statement before you? Doesn't this reveal that I am more sound internally than you are? If you were more sound internally than I am, it would be expected that you would've made a similar statement before I did, but the fact is that you have not. So what do you honestly think this means?

Try not to avoid the question and insert stock responses. I have endless amounts of ways to address how contradictory and hypocritical your position is so every time you insert a stock response it only exposes your denial of the truth.

The fact that you seem intelligent is what keeps me going because it gives me hope that eventually you will understand.
 
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Davian

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Davian clearly moved the goal post from a direct question about truth being infinite and timeless to a statement about how he doesn't think of religious opinion as "infinite and timeless". If you can't see how he clearly dodged the question and inserted his stock answer that does not address the question at all, then you are helping him move goal posts. Which if I recall is something that atheists blame theists for doing all the time.

Honestly ask yourself why your helping someone maintain hypocritical behavior. The truth is clear, you either submit to it or you deny it and are left to contradict yourself continuously. Let me clarify that this is not me claiming to be infallible, but this is me claiming to have direct connection to infallible truth, which is Jesus Christ. You can access this infallible truth at any time, you just have to ask for Jesus Christ into your life and when you ask you will receive connection to the source of infallible truth, which is God the Father. This is a guarantee that can be found in the Bible and when you ask and begin to receive you will understand that the Bible is completely true because the source of infallible truth wrote the Bible.

Again the only way to deny that the above is true, is to deny that truth is infinite and timeless, but when you deny this then you accept that truth actually has no meaning in the end because you accept that truth is finite and based on time. The denial of truth is the acceptance of meaningless contradictions and hypocritical behavior.
Stop using the word "truth" in a manner that implies that it is your religious opinion, and get back to me.
I can't make this any clearer, if you want more clarity you need to ask the source, which is God. Simply say out load "God show me where I'm wrong and reveal the truth to me", taking this action will begin you on a journey that will have more meaning than you ever thought possible! Amen.
Do you write letters to Santa?
 
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Davian

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Ah! You're saying that 'truth' is to be understood as opinion or belief, and 'absolute truth' is the new truth, is that right? So, when I begin to claim that my beliefs are based on absolute truth we shall have to redefine once more. Won't we just be debating the meaning of words?
Debating semantics in a philosophy forum? Stop this crazy talk. You are interrupting their sermon.
:preach:
 
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dcarrera

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You're right, I see no distinction between absolute truth and truth, I believe truth is infinite and timeless.

I don't want to be rude because you sound like a nice person, but it feels like you are just throwing words around because you like how they sound. Saying that truth is "infinite" and "timeless" makes as much sense as saying that you heard a colour made of sleep.

I think the term "falsifiable" gets used incorrectly. It actually means
  1. A statement is called falsifiable if it is possible to conceive an observation or an argument which proves the statement in question to be false. In this sense, falsify is synonymous with nullify, meaningnot "to commit fraud" but "show to be false".

By your on definition, you used the term "falsifiable" incorrectly. You said that truth should not be falsifiable. That is nonsense. I will only accept a claim if it is falsifiable in precisely the sense that you just quoted.


I'm saying infinite timeless truth would only ever be true and never be false. Can we agree that truth can be described in this way?

No. You haven't defined anything. You just wrote something that sounds good to you but I don't think that what you wrote means anything coherent.

Thereby agreeing that truth is not falsifiable?

Huh? It is "never false" that protons have more mass than electrons, and yet this claim is entirely falsifiable. A claim that is "never false" can be and should be falsifiable.

If you think truth should always be falsifiable, then you think truth is meaningless in the end.

On the contrary, the only claims that can be said to be true in any meaningful sense are the ones that are falsifiable. Compare these two claims: (1) protons are more massive than electrons. (2) There is an invisible massless dragon in my closet. Which of these two claims do you believe to be true? Clearly, the one that is falsifiable; the first one.

Its reasonable and logical to believe that there must come a point in time where truth stands as true, nothing false about it. And after this point in time, onward would be forever true. In other words forever devoid of all falsity.

I don't even know what you are trying to say. This is not logic, it is a jumble of words.

I know my reasoning is sound because I've defined truth in the only way it should ever be defined.

You did not define truth at all, and you said things about "truth" that are incoherent. Your reasoning is *NOT* sound, and you really are NOT qualified to judge the soundness of your own reasoning in the absence of empirical evidence. The attitude you are taking is just a way of being close-minded and refusing to consider that you might be wrong. You basically said that you cannot be wrong because you are confident that you cannot be wrong.

Truth is infinite and timeless, no human can alter it, humans can only submit to truth.

"Truth" is an abstract concept, and it is incoherent to give it a length. Saying that truth is infinite makes as much sense as saying that it is 3 meters long, or five pounds heavy. Also, "submit" does not work here. Once can accept a claim to be true, but there is no definition of the word "submit" that makes coherent sense in your sentence.


All valid speculation, but thats all it is, speculation.This is why I firmly support the search for life,

Now you are calling it "speculation" but in your previous post you were using aliens as an example of something you knew to be true without evidence. I have proven to you that you can be wrong about the things that you believe to be true. Please have the maturity and humility to recognize that you cannot claim that something is true just because you really really really thin that it is.

I'm actually more qualified to judge my own reasoning that you are to judge my reasoning. Just like you're more qualified to judge your own reasoning than I am to judge your reasoning.

No, it doesn't work that way. If a math teacher says that the way you reasoned about a problem is wrong, do you tell him that you are more qualified to judge your own reasoning than he is? Or do you accept that he is better than you at math reasoning and is fully qualified to judge your reasoning to be wrong?
 
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Davian

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I am not the reason for truth nor did I create truth, therefore, all I can do as far as truth goes is believe it and submit to it,
Accepting what you perceive as the truth as truth would be somewhat circular.
otherwise I'm either being deceived or I'm deceiving myself.
Okay. That would explain why you cannot show that your religious opinion is an accurate description of reality.
 
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lucaspa

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Can anyone determine why my reasoning below with Davian is wrong?

From your position, absolute truth has not been defined, this is why you ask questions. Lets imagine we do somehow fully realize absolute truth, would it make sense for that absolute truth to be falsifiable? It would not makes sense, right? Because if it was falsifiable, it would not be absolute truth.
Remember, falsifiable only means that there is some possible evidence out there that, if found, would falsify the statement. It doesn't mean such evidence actually exists. Therefore, if we "realize absolute truth" it means that falsifying evidence does not exist. So here is one area of your reasoning.

What I mean by absolute truth, is just the absolute truth about life, whether that being that life is pointless or that life has a deep meaning.
Why are you limiting "absolute truth" to only that question? Cannot there be "absolute truths" other than that one? How about the absolute truth that gravity exists? Or the absolute truth that the earth orbits the sun? So here is another error in your logic.

I believe there is only two possible absolute truths about life.

1. The absolute truth is that life is meaningless, therefore, all meaning we give life is pointless and we are free to literally do whatever we want as long as no one else finds out to get us in trouble with man's law. Man's law having no meaning in the end.

2. The absolute truth about life is that life actually has deep meaning that we are currently unable to see because it goes beyond the physical, therefore, all meaning we give life does have a point and that point will be realized some time in the future. Therefore, we should not literally do whatever we want, but rather respect the laws and moralities in our reality and listen to our conscience that is telling us there is right and wrong and that its better to do what is right, rather than what is wrong.

Ah, the fallacy of the false dichotomy. So we found another flaw with your logic. I can give you a third alternative: we have evolved to live as social animals, and still live as social animals. Therefore we are hardwired genetically to regard some behaviors as "good" and others as "bad" because the good behaviors contribute to the success of us in the group and the success of the group. Those of our ancestors who "did what they wanted" to their selfish benefit but ignoring the benefit of the group did not survive to pass on those notions. Thus our "conscience" and those "laws and moralities" have a very practical application. However, notice that sometimes our conscience conflicts with the current laws and moralities. The antislavery movement in the USA comes immediately to mind.

There are many possible meanings to life, some of which are rooted in the physical. One such meaning would be to have offspring and pass your alleles into the gene pool of the next generation.

If there is no reason for life then searching for truth does not makes sense because in the end the absolute truth would be that there is no reason for life, rendering truth meaningless.
Again, you are assuming (without presenting evidence) that the only "absolute truth" is whether life has meaning or not. Maybe the meaning of life is looking for those other truths. :)

Infinite timeless existence, in which you're finite existence on this earth depends upon.
That is an inadequate definition of God in the Judeo-Christian faith.

Yes, I understand I'm claiming by beliefs to be true without physical evidence to back my claims, but I'm backing my claims with sound reason that makes sense and if you refuse to believe sound reason that makes sense, you are then the one who is being unreasonable.
Your beliefs should rest on evidence. I notice that you said "physical evidence" as though that is the only evidence. It's not. Also, you are using "physical evidence" as "evidence that anyone and everyone can see or experience". Most evidence does not fall into that category; it is evidence personal to each individual. In fact, in cases of intimate personal relationships, the evidence we have of someone's love cannot be applied to someone else. If it is, that is grounds for divorce. :sigh:

Theistic beliefs rest on evidence: personal experience of deity. Some of that personal experience is written down and some of what is written down is called scripture. But it is not "physical". Moses saw and talked with a burning bush. That evidence certainly convinced him, didn't it? Do you trust that this really happened? If so, then you accept that personal experience as evidence. Your atheist friend does not.

Do you have your own personal relationship with God? If so, that's all the evidence you need. I forgot to look if you were married. If so, do you need any "physical evidence" of your spouse's love? Isn't your personal relationship sufficient evidence?

Again, your atheist friend's personal experience of God is no experience of God. That evidence is convincing to him.

You 2 have different data sets and there is no way to reconcile them.

Sound reason that makes sense does not have to be proven. All that is expected is that you believe it until proven otherwise, then when it is proven otherwise you are justified in changing your beliefs.
Poor reasoning. This is the opposite of poor atheist reasoning that something should be disbelieved until you have evidence. Do you agree with that? Well, whatever reasons you have for disagreeing with that apply to your own argument.

Again you have a false dichotomy (which the atheist also uses in his/her argument: that you either believe or disbelieve. There is a third choice: neither believe nor disbelieve but reserve judgement until evidence is found, one way or the other. When applied to deity, this is called "agnostic".

There are many, many problems with that statement "sound reason that makes sense does not have to be proven." Right there you have the failure of ancient Greek science. They thought reason was enough to discover truth, so they didn't experiment. The problem with this is "contingency". Reason does not determine reality.

Actually there is sound reason to believe that extraterrestrials do not exist. Have you ever heard of Drake equation or Fermi paradox. According these, we should have come into contact with aliens a long time ago. I don't have personal evidence of aliens, so it would be unreasonable for me to believe in aliens and in fact I've been given sound reason to believe they don't exist. You've been given sound reason to believe God does exist, yet you continue to deny for reasons unknown, other than you're just being unreasonable.

Pot, meet kettle! You just gave your atheist friend the sound reason not to believe in God. He doesn't have personal experience of God. He doesn't believe the experiences of other people. YOU don't have personal experience of extraterrestrials. YOU don't believe the experiences of other people. So YOU believe extraterrestrials do not exist.

Quite frankly, you have a non-sequitor reasoning error there. What you have done is reject the evidence that extraterrestrials have visited earth. Therefore, your only valid conclusion is that aliens have not visited earth. You cannot make the leap that sentient aliens do not exist elsewhere in the universe. You don't have very sound reasons to say aliens do not exist at all.

Basically, the Fermi paradox is just that, a paradox. A probability we have by reason has not shown up (yet) in reality. A paradox means that there may be other factors in play that we do not understand. It is not a valid reason to make the leap to believe there are no extraterrestrial sapient species.

So since you thought the logic was valid, you handed your atheist friend a "valid" reason to conclude deity does not exist. By your own logic, he is being reasonable. Congratulations. That is an impressive job of shooting yourself in the foot. :)
 
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Davian

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If someone is claiming truth, I simply question them honestly and the real truth will come out eventually, simply because truth is not restricted to any man, truth is infinite and timeless, therefore, no man can control or alter it, it will eventually come out, guaranteed! If this isn't how you view truth, then you are being deceived.
By what means to do you guarantee that?
 
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Davian

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I know you'll agree with the statement I'm about to make, but the fact that I'm stating it first and you're not means I've realized the truth before you have.

If there is something wrong with me internally, either with my thinking or emotions, it will be impossible to find truth externally. I must first be sound internally then I can reliably and honestly find truth externally.
If you believed that you could fly without mechanical aid, simply by flapping your arms, you could spend all day confirming this "truth" with yourself. The external confirmation, if done from a sufficient height, will undoubtably show your "truth" to be only opinion.
Now explain to me how I could possibly make this statement before you?
You did so in error.
Doesn't this reveal that I am more sound internally than you are?
Apparently not.
If you were more sound internally than I am, it would be expected that you would've made a similar statement before I did, but the fact is that you have not. So what do you honestly think this means?
I believe it to be contrary to the rules of this site to comment on the mental state of others.
Try not to avoid the question and insert stock responses.
Try not trot out your typical canards and misdirections.
I have endless amounts of ways to address how contradictory and hypocritical your position
None of them successfully, to date.
is so every time you insert a stock response it only exposes your denial of the truth.
I do not accept your religious opinion as truth.
The fact that you seem intelligent is what keeps me going because it gives me hope that eventually you will understand.
I understand that I do not want to be a religionist, if your posts are anything to go by.
 
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bhsmte

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Sure, this is true only if you ignore the fact that not all truth can be independently and objectively verified. The fact that you're ignoring this fact, informs me that you're not being completely honest with yourself. This is the truth that I've just demonstrated through your statements. Problem for you is that its a very personal truth, which are always the hardest to confess. It takes courage to confess the deepest most personal truths, but the reward is better than you can even imagine!

I have come to the conclusion, you either have a reading comprehension issue, or you simply like to put words in my mouth.
 
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bhsmte

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Case in point.

No, don't be a sloth. Think.

Case in point for what exactly?

A sloth? Cracks me up. In the past you have accused me of misrepresenting what you say and when I ask for clarification, you call me a sloth.

Can't say I am shocked though.
 
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Chriliman

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I understand that I do not want to be a religionist, if your posts are anything to go by.

Well good because I'm not a religionist, in fact I hate religion. I'm all for freely thinking about why we're all here, but after thinking about science and philosophy and prophecy I've realized why we're all here. Its just some don't like the reason and would rather deny it. They are free to do this, but eventually the truth will come out.
 
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Davian

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Well good because I'm not a religionist, in fact I hate religion.
You are betrayed by your faith indicator to the left.
I'm all for freely thinking about why we're all here, but after thinking about science and philosophy and prophecy I've realized why we're all here. Its just some don't like the reason and would rather deny it. They are free to do this, but eventually the truth will come out.
I do not accept your religious opinion as truth.
 
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Crump

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Well good because I'm not a religionist, in fact I hate religion. I'm all for freely thinking about why we're all here, but after thinking about science and philosophy and prophecy I've realized why we're all here. Its just some don't like the reason and would rather deny it. They are free to do this, but eventually the truth will come out.
So the truth isn't out yet? But if you tell us why we're all here the truth will then be out, I presume. So please tell us why we are all here.
 
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