[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] When should we change our reasoning / beliefs?

[KCfromNC]

If you have been given personal proof that eternal life is real and that those who don't currently believe this truth are at risk of missing out, what would you do?

Ask myself honestly if I'd believe something a believer in some other religion held to be true if all they could provide was "personal proof".

 

[KCfromNC]

If we don't go by the absolutes in the Bible..we have anarchy.

No "we" don't. The majority of the world's population is non-Christian and despite that, most of them live under stable governments.

 

[Chriliman]

He's right. No religious teaching is infinite and timeless in the real sense of the words. They are all written and suited for that time. They can be changed to fit today, but do they still adhere to the thoughts of the original writers?

Davian clearly moved the goal post from a direct question about truth being infinite and timeless to a statement about how he doesn't think of religious opinion as "infinite and timeless". If you can't see how he clearly dodged the question and inserted his stock answer that does not address the question at all, then you are helping him move goal posts. Which if I recall is something that atheists blame theists for doing all the time.

Honestly ask yourself why your helping someone maintain hypocritical behavior. The truth is clear, you either submit to it or you deny it and are left to contradict yourself continuously. Let me clarify that this is not me claiming to be infallible, but this is me claiming to have direct connection to infallible truth, which is Jesus Christ. You can access this infallible truth at any time, you just have to ask for Jesus Christ into your life and when you ask you will receive connection to the source of infallible truth, which is God the Father. This is a guarantee that can be found in the Bible and when you ask and begin to receive you will understand that the Bible is completely true because the source of infallible truth wrote the Bible.

Again the only way to deny that the above is true, is to deny that truth is infinite and timeless, but when you deny this then you accept that truth actually has no meaning in the end because you accept that truth is finite and based on time. The denial of truth is the acceptance of meaningless contradictions and hypocritical behavior.

I can't make this any clearer, if you want more clarity you need to ask the source, which is God. Simply say out load "God show me where I'm wrong and reveal the truth to me", taking this action will begin you on a journey that will have more meaning than you ever thought possible! Amen.

 

[2404]

Can anyone determine why my reasoning below with Davian is wrong? If you can't determine why it is wrong, wouldn't it be intelligent to take the same reasoning and apply it to your own life to then truly determine if it is right or wrong for you?

Also, if you can't tell me why my reasoning is wrong, why should I ever change my reasoning? Shouldn't I be expected to keep my sound reasoning until I'm proven wrong?



From your position, absolute truth has not been defined, this is why you ask questions. Lets imagine we do somehow fully realize absolute truth, would it make sense for that absolute truth to be falsifiable? It would not makes sense, right? Because if it was falsifiable, it would not be absolute truth. What I mean by absolute truth, is just the absolute truth about life, whether that being that life is pointless or that life has a deep meaning.



I believe there is only two possible absolute truths about life.

1. The absolute truth is that life is meaningless, therefore, all meaning we give life is pointless and we are free to literally do whatever we want as long as no one else finds out to get us in trouble with man's law. Man's law having no meaning in the end.

2. The absolute truth about life is that life actually has deep meaning that we are currently unable to see because it goes beyond the physical, therefore, all meaning we give life does have a point and that point will be realized some time in the future. Therefore, we should not literally do whatever we want, but rather respect the laws and moralities in our reality and listen to our conscience that is telling us there is right and wrong and that its better to do what is right, rather than what is wrong.



If there is no reason for life then searching for truth does not makes sense because in the end the absolute truth would be that there is no reason for life, rendering truth meaningless.



This is not my "religious opinion", but rather my honest opinion and if you do not accept my honest opinion as "true", then you accept that truth has no meaning as I've explained above.



Infinite timeless existence, in which you're finite existence on this earth depends upon.




As I've said above, its unreasonable to expect absolute truth to be falsifiable. Yes, I understand I'm claiming by beliefs to be true without physical evidence to back my claims, but I'm backing my claims with sound reason that makes sense and if you refuse to believe sound reason that makes sense, you are then the one who is being unreasonable.



Sound reason that makes sense does not have to be proven. All that is expected is that you believe it until proven otherwise, then when it is proven otherwise you are justified in changing your beliefs.



Actually there is sound reason to believe that extraterrestrials do not exist. Have you ever heard of Drake equation or Fermi paradox. According these, we should have come into contact with aliens a long time ago. I don't have personal evidence of aliens, so it would be unreasonable for me to believe in aliens and in fact I've been given sound reason to believe they don't exist. You've been given sound reason to believe God does exist, yet you continue to deny for reasons unknown, other than you're just being unreasonable.


Jesus



Good! Keep thinking, it'll come to you eventually

As a intelligent human being no one is going to be able to undermine your reasoning but know this - it will end with you and it wont help you a bit.
Christ built His church on revelation and unless you are willing to accept it your reasoning is all you have.
Satan told Eve - isn't it reasonable... - she accepted it - and you know the rest...

 

[Crump]

Words are defined by how they used, and what context. As I see the word "truth" used by religionists in these forums, it would seem to be used to reference their own personal religious opinion.

Ah! You're saying that 'truth' is to be understood as opinion or belief, and 'absolute truth' is the new truth, is that right? So, when I begin to claim that my beliefs are based on absolute truth we shall have to redefine once more. Won't we just be debating the meaning of words?

 

[bhsmte]

Davian clearly moved the goal post from a direct question about truth being infinite and timeless to a statement about how he doesn't think of religious opinion as "infinite and timeless". If you can't see how he clearly dodged the question and inserted his stock answer that does not address the question at all, then you are helping him move goal posts. Which if I recall is something that atheists blame theists for doing all the time.

Honestly ask yourself why your helping someone maintain hypocritical behavior. The truth is clear, you either submit to it or you deny it and are left to contradict yourself continuously. Let me clarify that this is not me claiming to be infallible, but this is me claiming to have direct connection to infallible truth, which is Jesus Christ. You can access this infallible truth at any time, you just have to ask for Jesus Christ into your life and when you ask you will receive connection to the source of infallible truth, which is God the Father. This is a guarantee that can be found in the Bible and when you ask and begin to receive you will understand that the Bible is completely true because the source of infallible truth wrote the Bible.

Again the only way to deny that the above is true, is to deny that truth is infinite and timeless, but when you deny this then you accept that truth actually has no meaning in the end because you accept that truth is finite and based on time. The denial of truth is the acceptance of meaningless contradictions and hypocritical behavior.

I can't make this any clearer, if you want more clarity you need to ask the source, which is God. Simply say out load "God show me where I'm wrong and reveal the truth to me", taking this action will begin you on a journey that will have more meaning than you ever thought possible! Amen.

If the truth was clear, you would be able to demonstrate it.

 

[Chriliman]

As a intelligent human being no one is going to be able to undermine your reasoning but know this - it will end with you and it wont help you a bit.
Christ built His church on revelation and unless you are willing to accept it your reasoning is all you have.
Satan told Eve - isn't it reasonable... - she accepted it - and you know the rest...

You're right our human reasoning only gets us so far, from there we have to trust in Jesus Christ

 

[oi_antz]

If the truth was clear, you would be able to demonstrate it.

Is this a general statement? If so, I would disagree. I know personally the lengths people go to in order to prevent truth from being demonstrable.

 

[bhsmte]

Is this a general statement? If so, I would disagree. I know personally the lengths people go to in order to prevent truth from being demonstrable.

He is the one declaring the truth is clear and no one is stopping him from demonstrating it to be such.

 

[oi_antz]

He is the one declaring the truth is clear and no one is stopping him from demonstrating it to be such.

Ah, I see what he is saying there. I agree with him on that. Nobody can actually demonstrate truth though, they can only describe it. If you check out John 3:20-21 and Ephesians 5:13 as I have quoted today already, it shows a contrast between two types of people - those who love the truth and those who love deceit. I am speaking generally BTW, I don't know what specific point he is trying to make.

 

[Chriliman]

He is the one declaring the truth is clear and no one is stopping him from demonstrating it to be such.

I am not the reason for truth nor did I create truth, therefore, all I can do as far as truth goes is believe it and submit to it, otherwise I'm either being deceived or I'm deceiving myself.

 

[bhsmte]

Ah, I see what he is saying there. I agree with him on that. Nobody can actually demonstrate truth though, they can only describe it. If you check out John 3:20-21 and Ephesians 5:13 as I have quoted today already, it shows a contrast between two types of people - those who love the truth and those who love deceit. I am speaking generally BTW, I don't know what specific point he is trying to make.

Is there no truth that you are aware of, that you can not demonstrate to be the truth?

Yes, I am familiar with what scripture states, but as you know, I don't find scripture to be credible.

 

[bhsmte]

I am not the reason for truth nor did I create truth, therefore, all I can do as far as truth goes is believe it and submit to it, otherwise I'm either being deceived or I'm deceiving myself.

Cool. You are saying a certain truth is clear to you personally, but you can't demonstrate this to others. It should not be difficult then, for you to understand why others don't agree with you.

Just as, if someone that believed in a different God and or different religion claimed, the truth of their faith was clear, you likely wouldn't go along with that, would you?

 

[Chriliman]

Cool. You are saying a certain truth is clear to you personally, but you can't demonstrate this to others. It should not be difficult then, for you to understand why others don't agree with you.

Just as, if someone that believed in a different God and or different religion claimed, the truth of their faith was clear, you likely wouldn't go along with that, would you?

If someone is claiming truth, I simply question them honestly and the real truth will come out eventually, simply because truth is not restricted to any man, truth is infinite and timeless, therefore, no man can control or alter it, it will eventually come out, guaranteed! If this isn't how you view truth, then you are being deceived.

 

[bhsmte]

If someone is claiming truth, I simply question them honestly and the real truth will come out eventually, simply because truth is not restricted to any man, truth is infinite and timeless, therefore, no man can control or alter it, it will eventually come out, guaranteed! If this isn't how you view truth, then you are being deceived.

Truth that is independent of man's perception, has independent objective means to verify it, as the truth.

And I see you have this need to keep judging, by saying I am being deceived. This seems to come quite natural to you.

 

[Chriliman]

Truth that is independent of man's perception, has independent objective means to verify it, as the truth.

False, if you claim to be telling me the truth about something I have no independent objective way to determine the actual truth, I must trust that you are telling me the truth. If I don't trust that you are telling me the truth I can then ask honest questions that will either confirm you are telling the truth or deny that you are telling the truth and I will realize you are lying to me if the truth is denied. Once I realize I'm being lied to, I then have the real truth, which was not gained by independent objective means, it was gained by being honest with myself first and then asking honest questions.

And I see you have this need to keep judging, by saying I am being deceived. This seems to come quite natural to you.

The truth judges each individual who denies the truth. Judge yourself first then you can honestly judge others in the hopes of helping them see the truth.

 

[bhsmte]

False, if you claim to be telling me the truth about something I have no independent objective way to determine the actual truth, I must trust that you are telling me the truth. If I don't trust that you are telling me the truth I can then ask honest questions that will either confirm you are telling the truth or deny that you are telling the truth and I will realize you are lying to me if the truth is denied. Once I realize I'm being lied to, I then have the real truth, which was not gained by independent objective means, it was gained by being honest with myself first and then asking honest questions.



The truth judges each individual who denies the truth. Judge yourself first then you can honestly judge others in the hopes of helping them see the truth.

If I told you it rained 4 inches one year ago in the city that I live, you would have means to objectively verify what I am saying is true or not.

If I told you I owned a certain automobile, there would be means I could provide you, that would objectively and independently verify what I am saying is true.

If I said I graduated from a certain college, there are means I could use to show you this was true, with objective verifiable means.

So, there are claims of truth that certainly can be verified independently and objectively, as being true.

 

[Crump]

There seems to be some argument being made that no truth can exist that is incontestable. Logically that cannot be true because it is a self defeating argument. Not only is it logically false but it can be demonstrated by practical experiment to be false. There are demonstrable truths which cannot be contested by any sane person and which are transcendent of time and space.

 

[oi_antz]

Is there no truth that you are aware of, that you can not demonstrate to be the truth?

Yes, I am familiar with what scripture states, but as you know, I don't find scripture to be credible.

Yes, well, one can demonstrate for their entire life if they don't mind being a clown. Funny enough, there is truth demonstrated right here, in your own response and as the content of the scriptures I reproduced relate to it. I wonder, since you think so little of scriptures yet you are interested in my thoughts, if I had originally made the statements in John 3:20-21 instead of Jesus, or if I had have originally made the statement of Ephesians 5:13 instead of St. Paul, would you have read it? Would you have cast it away without a glance and told me you think little of it? It's a double standard. Actually, I recommended those scriptures. That means I have elevated them above my own words. It sure is interesting to consider.

 

[bhsmte]

Yes, well, one can demonstrate for their entire life if they don't mind being a clown. Funny enough, there is truth demonstrated right here, in your own response and as the content of the scriptures I reproduced relate to it. I wonder, since you think so little of scriptures yet you are interested in my thoughts, if I had originally made the statements in John 3:20-21 instead of Jesus, or if I had have originally made the statement of Ephesians 5:13 instead of St. Paul, would you have read it? Would you have cast it away without a glance and told me you think little of it? It's a double standard. Actually, I recommended those scriptures. That means I have elevated them above my own words. It sure is interesting to consider.

Demonstrating truth to someone is being a clown? Interesting take on that.

So, what truth was demonstrated, right here?