[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] A question for those who.....

[Davian]

...
HOWEVER, this does not mean that there was not already human life on the planet. The Indian Vedas mention the use of flying machines, lasers, and nuclear weapons, ten thousand years ago.

Now there is a quality derail.

 

[Poster0]

That is an interesting assertion... but quite incorrect. There is indeed a field of science where the developement of, err, developement is studied. Short summary: "advancement" is not a linear function.

You are incorrect about the evidence for evolution being just a "bunch of hogwash". If it was, it wouldn't fit so well together.

And lastly... you keep attacking the scientific theories, but you do not even try to offer any kind of evidence for your "creation theory". You have not even tried to state it. I wonder why that is?

My theory was only that God can explain how this complex and perfectly balanced world we live in was created. It was a theory that God is the unseen force which created the very first atom, particle or whatever science believes came first. I believe that its quite impossible to imagine that there was nothing in the beginning, but then out of that nothing something mysteriously evolved into a particle of matter or whatever science says it was. My understanding is that if we trace the origin of all things back as far as it will go (if we were able to do that) and we looked at the very first thing that ever came into existence, i.e. that thing that started the big bang, then we would see the very beginning of life. However that thing itself would need to have no beginning. IT would have needed to exist forever, long before the big bang, without a beginning whatsoever because something way back then must have been the very first thing in existence. When i consider this, my conclusion is that it must be God because it seems impossible for something to have always existed without a beginning. Explain that to me if science is so knowledgeable. Please explain how something can have no beginning. Only God makes sense to me. You can treat me as an uneducated dummy, but thats what i believe. You can call me a troll as well, even though i would not be hear if it were not for your debate that you were happy to draw me into and engage in yourselves . If im trolling then surely you and the others are as well.

 

[Davian]

No, i already explained it. I believe God created the universe. I believe he is the hidden force that science cannot see.

How then do you know it is there?

So you believe that when we die, there is no soul, no spirit that lives on after death?

No. On what would you base such a belief?

 

[Davian]

Well at least you admit that science is part faith anyway.

Not "faith" in the religious sense. I have yet to see any astronomers enter politics and lobby to have hypotheses from modern cosmology carved into multi-ton granite monuments and placed in state judicial buildings.

 

[Poster0]

Are you even listening?

Its hard to listen when you must answer multiple people all at the same time. You posters complain about being off topic, you accuse me of being a troll but you sure don't stop talking do you? Forgive me, but i would not have anything to respond to if you didn't reply to my posts. Ok, i'm done. I never got an answer for what this whole evolution thing is about, or didn't see it while i was being bombarded by posters who supposedly who didnt want to get off topic or troll.

 

[Davian]

Ok, correct me then, what medicines have the evolution theory gave us? Its my understanding that genetics and study of human anatomy along with cell research have provided those things. What is this evolution theory anyway? I was under the impression that is was the origin of species and how they evolve over the years. How does that help us curte disease and create medicine?

Post #140.

 

[Poster0]

+

Post #140.

Ok i see, the infamous Nobel prize. Al Gore was awarded that same prize for his climate change work, and he was not truthful either. He claimed that the North Pole could be completely liquidated by 2014 due to the impending threat of global warming. What bunch of nonsense that was. Mr Obama was given the prize for doing nothing but getting elected. It seems that the Nobel peace prize is meaningless anymore. Seriously, i like science but i do believe it is very flawed and its financial backers have political agendas, and they pollute the pureness of science. I don't believe science is right about 200,000 year old human population, i don't believe that evolution is correct and it has changed over the years. I don't trust the Nobel peace prize either. That's all, you can consider me a fool, i don't care. Its better to be wrong if you believe in God and he doesn't exist, than to not believe in him if he does exist. If i am a fool then i will die in the grave and nothing more of me will remain, so it doesn't matter. Seriously though, i am done with this discussion. You guys can stop complaining about how i forced you to respond to my posts and derail the tread.

 

[Gracchus]

Okay...? You think most of us oppose being asked questions and challenged in our beliefs?

Did you know that there used to be a General Apologetics forum? Now it is forbidden. Why do you suppose that is? There is a Christian Apologetics forum, and only Christians may post there.

There is no denying that humans are also quite foolish. It took the most educated humans to create a way of harnessing atomic energy, yet look at how destructive it has been. We pollute our own environment in the process. Humans have done many foolish things throughout history.

Well, half of them are below average intellectually, and many of the smarter ones are lazy or deluded.

I have a feeling this thread will be shut down soon.

Many threads in Physical and Life Sciences are, because religious folks keep draggin in theology, and soon the thread is into apologetics which is forbidden.

I believe in God because nothing else can explain creation. I just cannot logically accept that creation happened without an external force and that it came from nothing.

The Big Bang does not assert that everything came from nothing. It says that all matter and energy once existed in a singularity, and for reasons unknown, but perhaps not unknowable, began expanding. It may be that it simply fell into a black hole and fell out the other side, with time simply reversing at the boundary. The math is quite elegant.

That seems impossible to me, and it should seem impossible to any logical person.

So: If you can't understand it, no one can or ever will.

God is completely logical and His existence explains the unexplained.

Logic operates on premises. If you start with false premises you can prove falsehoods. If you start with contradictory premises you can prove anything at all.

Its actually illogical to suggest that he does't exist in my opinion. That is not an emotional response but a logical deduction. You may have the last word though, because this is not the topic of the thread and i will not respond further.

Thank goodness! I was afraid you were going to drag the thread into the forbidden zone of apologetics.

Have a nice day!

 

[Poster0]

The Big Bang does not assert that everything came from nothing. It says that all matter and energy once existed in a singularity, and for reasons unknown, but perhaps not unknowable, began expanding. It may be that it simply fell into a black hole and fell out the other side, with time simply reversing at the boundary. The math is quite elegant.

So: If you can't understand it, no one can or ever will.

Logic operates on premises. If you start with false premises you can prove falsehoods. If you start with contradictory premises you can prove anything at all.
Thank goodness! I was afraid you were going to drag the thread into the forbidden zone of apologetics.

Have a nice day!

YOu are ignoring the fact that i am basing everything on the fact that i believe that only God can have no beginning. Surely something can be traced all the way back to the beginning. What was in that beginning? This unknown singularity? God is the singularity, that's my belief. Im sorry but i believe that only God has no beginning. I dont believe that an unintelligent, unknown, singularity has always existed and then created inteligent life such as humans. It just doesn't take much imagination to believe that. To me its like part of my DNA. I could not possible believe that God didn't create me and that im just some cosmic accident. I give the human race far more credit than you guys are giving us. You say we are not truly alive and our consciousness is just some explainable scientific occurrence that happens inside brain cells, as if we are just a robot with micro processors, only a thing that spontaneously came into being from an unknown singularity and will eventually change our form into a pile of dirt (scientifically explained of course) and thats all we will ever be, just a pile of dirt sitting in a grave. I thought you guys didn't want to discuss this stuff with me anymore? I thought you wanted this troll to leave? Its been fun but im logging off. have a nice day Gracchus

 

[Davian]

My theory was only that God can explain how this complex and perfectly balanced world we live in was created.

I dont see what an allegedly all-powerful-all-knowing deity would need with a 'perfectly balanced' universe. He could have us living on the surface of the Sun, could he not? On the Moon. Why would we need air to breathe?

It was a theory that God is the unseen force which created the very first atom, particle or whatever science believes came first. I believe that its quite impossible to imagine that there was nothing in the beginning, but then out of that nothing something mysteriously evolved into a particle of matter or whatever science says it was. My understanding is that if we trace the origin of all things back as far as it will go (if we were able to do that)

Back 6000 years, or 13 billion?

and we looked at the very first thing that ever came into existence, i.e. that thing that started the big bang,

Big bang cosmology implies a 13.7 billion year-old cosmos, and a 4 billion year old Earth. You do need to put the goalposts down at some point.

then we would see the very beginning of life.

Define "life". In the biological sense, it wouldn't start until the Earth had cooled sufficiently.

However that thing itself would need to have no beginning. IT would have needed to exist forever, long before the big bang, without a beginning whatsoever because something way back then must have been the very first thing in existence. When i consider this, my conclusion is that it must be God because it seems impossible for something to have always existed without a beginning. Explain that to me if science is so knowledgeable. Please explain how something can have no beginning.

I would not presume to be able to comprehend the conditions that preceded the instantiation of the cosmos, if even that statement makes sense. I would certainly not project what we observe as cause-and-effect within the cosmos onto it.

Only God makes sense to me.

I missed the part where you got from an "unseen force" to belief in a "God" that allegedly walked and talked in a garden that has no evidence of having existed, poofed people and animals into existence, and later, in a manner contrary to the modern understanding of genetics, populated the planet with a tiny group of individuals and animals that survived a global flood in an unbuildable boat, a flood that killed the dinosaurs in a manner that only *appears* to be 65 million years ago, because the Earth is really only somehow 6000 years old, yet remains, by every object measure to date indistinguishable from nothing.

 

[Davian]

+

Ok i see, the infamous Nobel prize.

Poisoning the well, I see.

Al Gore was awarded that same prize for his climate change work, and he was not truthful either. He claimed that the North Pole could be completely liquidated by 2014 due to the impending threat of global warming. What bunch of nonsense that was.
Mr Obama was given the prize for doing nothing but getting elected. It seems that the Nobel peace prize is meaningless anymore.

Where did I make reference to the Peace Prize? Did you not even read that link?

Seriously, i like science but i do believe it is very flawed

Says the guy that thought evolutionary theory says humans descended from chimpanzees.

and its financial backers have political agendas, and they pollute the pureness of science. I don't believe science is right about 200,000 year old human population, i don't believe that evolution is correct

Why? Because it conflicts with your religious beliefs?

and it has changed over the years.

Of course it does, because it is science, not dogma.

I don't trust the Nobel peace prize either.

And I made no reference to it.

That's all, you can consider me a fool, i don't care. Its better to be wrong if you believe in God and he doesn't exist, than to not believe in him if he does exist.

How do you know that you have the right god, if such things exist? Myself, I seek a more accurate description of reality, even if it is not all bread and circuses.

If i am a fool then i will die in the grave and nothing more of me will remain, so it doesn't matter. Seriously though, i am done with this discussion. You guys can stop complaining about how i forced you to respond to my posts and derail the tread.

The OP doesn't mind at at all. You should see how he can derail his own threads when he wants.

 

[Poster0]

I dont see what an allegedly all-powerful-all-knowing deity would need with a 'perfectly balanced' universe. He could have us living on the surface of the Sun, could he not? On the Moon. Why would we need air to breathe?

Back 6000 years, or 13 billion?

Big bang cosmology implies a 13.7 billion year-old cosmos, and a 4 billion year old Earth. You do need to put the goalposts down at some point.

Define "life". In the biological sense, it wouldn't start until the Earth had cooled sufficiently.

I would not presume to be able to comprehend the conditions that preceded the instantiation of the cosmos, if even that statement makes sense. I would certainly not project what we observe as cause-and-effect within the cosmos onto it.

I missed the part where you got from an "unseen force" to belief in a "God" that allegedly walked and talked in a garden that has no evidence of having existed, poofed people and animals into existence, and later, in a manner contrary to the modern understanding of genetics, populated the planet with a tiny group of individuals and animals that survived a global flood in an unbuildable boat, a flood that killed the dinosaurs in a manner that only *appears* to be 65 million years ago, because the Earth is really only somehow 6000 years old, yet remains, by every object measure to date indistinguishable from nothing.

Ok i'll bite, sure, why not. I know you are just playing some silly little game, i knew that about 5 pages back, but i just cant resist. I'll humor you and the rest of the gang, my friend.

What does it matter? What does any of this scientific stuff matter? We could die tomorrow. What good would this scientific debate do for us then? What if we became ill with an incurable disease, or what if we lost everything we had in a single day? ITs been known to happen. How will science give you hope? It wont. IF you do believe in a God then he truly is invisible because he hasn't spoke or declared anything. So he is nothing. However the God of the bible has spoke and declared many things. He says that all creation declares his glory, which really just means that it shows his handiwork and actually proves he exists. He says that we should have known that he existed simply because we ourselves and all creation is proof. He said we did not acknowledge him and for that reason he has made all our worldly knowledge foolishness. Truly it is foolish because the more we learn and grow, the worst off we become. The more we advance the more problems we create. WE are like tiny little ants thinking we are so big. WE think we control our destiny but we do not. In the end the truth will remain that God did create this world and we only fool ourselves by denying this. In the end science will not give us eternal life and it will only mock us because it will live on after we are dead, and it will be there like a monument to our failed attempt at discovering truth. God is real, but only we can seek him out. No one can make us seek him. Appearances can be deceiving and that's what worldly knowledge is. Any person can seem wise with education, but that's not wisdom, its just knowledge. Wisdom is to seek God. You can believe it or not, doesn't matter to me.

 

[Poster0]

Poisoning the well, I see.

Where did I make reference to the Peace Prize? Did you not even read that link?

Says the guy that thought evolutionary theory says humans descended from chimpanzees.

You mentioned the Nobel prize. It was created by the same man who created the Nobel peace prize. IT really doesn't matter because its just comparing apples and oranges. Im not sure which Prize Al Gore was awarded but it was a Nobel prize, which you mentioned more than once. The Nobel prize is meaningless because it has been turned into a political propaganda tool. Perhaps some people who have received it are worthy, but some are not and it can hardly be taken seriously anymore. When this prize is awarded for things like global warming issues or Evolution, i would surely scoff at it and not take it seriously. Not after the Al Gore and Obama charades.

"To see the integral role of evolution in biomedical research, consider Nobel Prizes, a good indicator of the most important breakthroughs in biology. Reviewing the last 50 years of Nobel Prizes in medicine or physiology, I

 

[Poster0]

Some evolutionists have previously asserted that we came from Chimpanzee's. Creationists did not invent this idea, evolutionists did. Sure, maybe after the world laughed at them they may have changed their opinion, but it was evolutionists, not creationists who invented this chimpanzee human origin theory.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Genetic study is highly interpretive and easily misunderstood. They once told us the world was flat too and everyone believed that, but it was not true. THe evolution theory has not produced any medicines, neither has the BB theory. You seem to be reaching. Science cant even begin to understand the complexity of genetics. We are closely related to pigs but science says we don't evolve from them. They say we came from chimps. Do you actually believe that? Dinosaur bones last 65 million years, and humans evolved from chimpanzee. No sir, i cannot rationally believe those things.

Good god what did I just read?

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Yes i do. I suppose i should instead believe we came from chimpanzee's, lived for 200,000 years like savage cavemen, but then all of a sudden in only 100 year span, we build computers, combustion engines, rockets, go to the moon, send probes to Mars and take high quality photos, invent TV, Radio, and a vast mountain of other technologies as well?

You're not serious.

 

[Poster0]

You're not serious.

You will see how serious it is one day. One day you will know that God created you. It wont be funny then.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

You will see how serious it is one day. One day you will know that God created you. It wont be funny then.

Um, I never said i found anything funny. But it is humorous how you lack a fundamental understanding of science.

 

[Davian]

Ok i'll bite, sure, why not. I know you are just playing some silly little game, i knew that about 5 pages back, but i just cant resist. I'll humor you and the rest of the gang, my friend.

What does it matter? What does any of this scientific stuff matter? We could die tomorrow. What good would this scientific debate do for us then?

For me, I think it helps me in the construction of a more accurate description of reality.

What if we became ill with an incurable disease, or what if we lost everything we had in a single day? ITs been known to happen. How will science give you hope? It wont. IF you do believe in a God then he truly is invisible because he hasn't spoke or declared anything. So he is nothing.

By "invisible", you mean "undetectable". It that more accurate?

However the God of the bible has spoke and declared many things.

You mean, you have read in the bible...

He says

You have read...

that all creation declares his glory, which really just means that it shows his handiwork and actually proves he exists.

The same evidence for universe-creating pixies. But, those pixies are not concerned about what you wear on your head, or with whom you have sex with, or which day to take off from work.

He says that we should have known that he existed simply because we ourselves and all creation is proof.

Credit the bible writers with knowing how to sell a religion. Make big promises, and keep them vague and untestable.

He said we did not acknowledge him and for that reason he has made all our worldly knowledge foolishness.

Or we are simply skeptical of unevidence, untestable, and unfalsfiable claims.

Truly it is foolish because the more we learn and grow, the worst off we become.

Try living a few hundred years ago, with no indoor plumbing or knowledge of germ theory. Or, do you still believe that demons cause diseases? Sorry bout that.

The more we advance the more problems we create. WE are like tiny little ants thinking we are so big. WE think we control our destiny but we do not. In the end the truth

...opinion...

will remain that God did create this world and we only fool ourselves by denying this.

I do not deny it. I am simply not convinced.

In the end science will not give us eternal life and it will only mock us because it will live on after we are dead, and it will be there like a monument to our failed attempt at discovering truth.

The argument from consequences is a fallacy. Do you know that a fallacy is?

God is real,

So you assert.

but only we can seek him out.

Would that not be circular reasoning, as you would first have to believe that gods are possible prior to seeking a god?

Do you send letters to Santa? Do you not want free stuff?

No one can make us seek him. Appearances can be deceiving and that's what worldly knowledge is.

Belief is not a conscious choice. There is no virtual switch in in my head that I can flip and say"Today, I shall believe in gods" followed by "that story about a "God" that allegedly walked and talked in a garden that has no evidence of having existed, poofed people and animals into existence, and later, in a manner contrary to the modern understanding of genetics, populated the planet with a tiny group of individuals and animals that survived a global flood in an unbuildable boat, a flood that killed the dinosaurs in a manner that only *appears* to be 65 million years ago, because the Earth is really only somehow 6000 years old, yet remains, by every object measure to date indistinguishable from nothing suddenly makes complete sense to me".

Any person can seem wise with education, but that's not wisdom, its just knowledge. Wisdom is to seek God. You can believe it or not, doesn't matter to me.

Why are you here?

 

[Davian]

You mentioned the Nobel prize. It was created by the same man who created the Nobel peace prize. IT really doesn't matter because its just comparing apples and oranges. Im not sure which Prize Al Gore was awarded but it was a Nobel prize, which you mentioned more than once.

So you admit to your ignorance of the prizes they award, and to who.

The Nobel prize is meaningless because it has been turned into a political propaganda tool.

I do not follow the Peace Prize, so I could not comment on that.

Perhaps some people who have received it are worthy, but some are not and it can hardly be taken seriously anymore.

Again, I was not talking about the Peace Prize.

When this prize is awarded for things like global warming issues or Evolution, i would surely scoff at it and not take it seriously. Not after the Al Gore and Obama charades.

The prizes that they received were not in the areas of science. Have you considered educating yourself on these subjects that you scoff at?