[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] A problem at the bottom of reason

[HitchSlap]

If only atheists actually questioned each other. Some of you believe God is possible some believe God is not possible. Some believe in magic gnomes and fairies(always comparing these to God), still others believe in cosmic eggs and unknowable singularities. Why is their so much contradiction and confusion among atheist "beliefs"?

I question other Christians if their beliefs don't line up with what I believe a true Christian should believe and often times I learn something new from questioning. I don't question because I think I'm right about everything, but rather I question in an attempt to learn something either about them or about my own beliefs. Ultimately, the truth is simple for me, the truth is Jesus. Thankfully, I live in America where I can freely say that, but who knows that may change in the future, but for now I can freely proclaim my beliefs.

At least we can all agree, that hopefully that won't change.

God bless!

Atheism is not a set of beliefs, only one: Unbelief in god/s.

 

[Chriliman]

Atheism is not a set of beliefs, only one: Unbelief in god/s.

Based on what I've learned from talking to atheists, it is a set of a wide range of beliefs about the universe. Basically an atheist will believe anything as long as it's not God. Obviously, I think your missing the boat entirely, but I can't control what you believe, I can just give reasons for why I believe what I believe and so far no atheist has been able to give me any good reason to not believe in God.

Some atheists even go as far as to say they don't believe God exists, when they can't even prove this. How is that any different from me saying I believe in God, even though I can't prove it? It seems every disagreement in regards to life is centered around one concept and that concept is God. So either God exists or He doesn't, I think in time we'll either find out He does exist or.... <this represents nothing

 

[bhsmte]

Based on what I've learned from talking to atheists, it is a set of a wide range of beliefs about the universe. Basically an atheist will believe anything as long as it's not God. Obviously, I think your missing the boat entirely, but I can't control what you believe, I can just give reasons for why I believe what I believe and so far no atheist has been able to give me any good reason to not believe in God.

Some atheists even go as far as to say they don't believe God exists, when they can't even prove this. How is that any different from me saying I believe in God, even though I can't prove it? It seems every disagreement in regards to life is centered around one concept and that concept is God. So either God exists or He doesn't, I think in time we'll either find out He does exist or.... <this represents nothing

You really, really have a strong need to pretend to know what others believe and why.

 

[Chriliman]

You really, really have a strong need to pretend to know what others believe and why.

I'm not pretending. I can only know as much as is presented to me after asking questions and then using reason to determine what makes the most sense. Do you have a different way of gaining knowledge?

 

[bhsmte]

I'm not pretending. I can only know as much as is presented to me after asking questions and then using reason to determine what makes the most sense. Do you have a different way of gaining knowledge?

Here is the problem. You seem to take what is presented to you and then speculate it has additional meaning no one has mentioned.

I will let others on the board though chime in as to whether they agree with this observation.

 

[True Scotsman]

If only atheists actually questioned each other. Some of you believe God is possible some believe God is not possible. Some believe in magic gnomes and fairies(always comparing these to God), still others believe in cosmic eggs and unknowable singularities. Why is their so much contradiction and confusion among atheist "beliefs"?

I question other Christians if their beliefs don't line up with what I believe a true Christian should believe and often times I learn something new from questioning. I don't question because I think I'm right about everything, but rather I question in an attempt to learn something either about them or about my own beliefs. Ultimately, the truth is simple for me, the truth is Jesus. Thankfully, I live in America where I can freely say that, but who knows that may change in the future, but for now I can freely proclaim my beliefs.

At least we can all agree, that hopefully that won't change.

God bless!

There is no such thing as an atheist belief system in the first place. Atheism is a position on a single issue, not a philosophy. I find most atheists to be just as irrational as theists in many of their beliefs. I don't know why anyone would expect there to be unanimity among a group of people who only share a lack of belief of gods. I do question atheists and have gotten into many heated debates with them.

Who said anything about you not being able to freely proclaim your beliefs? Haven't you been doing that? Do you equate someone critiquing your beliefs with oppression? I would never prevent anyone from expressing their beliefs and I am opposed to that as a violation of individual rights.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Based on what I've learned from talking to atheists, it is a set of a wide range of beliefs about the universe.

Atheists certainly do hold a wide range of beliefs about the universe, but only their common lack of belief in the existence of God is what makes them atheists.

Basically an atheist will believe anything as long as it's not God.

I don't believe in many non-theistic ideas because they just don't pass the evidence test, or are poorly argued. For instance, I don't believe that the Earth is flat like a pancake, even though flat earthism doesn't require any god-belief.

I could say that a theist will believe anything as long as a God or gods are involved. If I were to cite the wide range of religions out there, would that really mean that particular individual theists will believe anything at all?

Some atheists even go as far as to say they don't believe God exists, when they can't even prove this.

The burden of proof falls on the shoulders of those who assert the positive. In this case, that means theists such as yourself.

It seems every disagreement in regards to life is centered around one concept and that concept is God.

At CF that might be true. However, that really isn't the case elsewhere.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[quatona]

Basically an atheist will believe anything as long as it's not God.

Exactly: That´s all you can know about a person when hearing they are an atheist: They don´t believe in a God. That doesn´t make for a belief system.

Some atheists even go as far as to say they don't believe God exists, when they can't even prove this.

I guess that´s why they say "believe" and not "know".

How is that any different from me saying I believe in God, even though I can't prove it?

It´s not any different, and as far as I can tell nobody keeps you from saying it.
The question is merely: How do we deal with exceptional claims?

It seems every disagreement in regards to life is centered around one concept and that concept is God.

It only seems that way when you are a theist.

So either God exists or He doesn't, I think in time we'll either find out He does exist or.... <this represents nothing

So?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Your assuming I had an understanding of how my brain works, the very moment I became self aware. This is an unreasonable assumption.

How many times must I repeat that this stuff isn't about a consious decision needing to be made?

It's the default. By default one trusts that what one experiences as reality, is actually reality.

For goodness' sakes... how can you be so stubborn?

You'll freely assume reality is true, but you refuse to assume basal assumptions could be false. Interesting...

Where have I said that they can't be false?

What I said is that we have no way to find out.
Which, in turn, is exactly the reason why we have no choice but to assume reality is real. It's the only input we have and have no access to any other universes or realities. We are "stuck" in this one - real or virtual.

According to your reasoning it would be just as reasonable to say "we have no choice but to assume we have senses", however, this does not makes sense because trusting something is not the same as assuming something. And our senses had to come first in order to make assumptions.

You don't make assumptions with your tongue or eyes.

The first self aware humans did not, that's the problem.

Why is that a problem?

The reasoning I'm using can touch on all matters and never contradict itself. This reasoning did not come from my brain, it came from God because God is the source of all knowledge.

This is completely meaningless.
You could replace "god" in that sentence with pretty much anything and it wouldn't make any difference.

The only thing you refuse to assume is that basal assumption could be false.

Second time you say this. Again: where have I said this?

This is implying I came before reality.

No.

I do not accept the notion that I create reality by assuming its there.

And you don't need to, because that's not at all what I said.
Perhaps you should pay more attention. You seem to be reading other sentences then the ones I'm writing down....

It's simple, God is trying to speak to you through me, all you have to do is listen. I pray that you'll open your heart and mind to the truth of God.

lol, okay then.

So, you don't have an actual reason for this topic?
It's just delusions of grandeur?

 

[Chriliman]

Just imagine that I were to tell you that the only reason that you are a Christian is out of fear of death, and if you only didn't fear non-existence you would see the truth that there is no God. What would be your internal reaction?

Quite the opposite is true for me. I don't fear death because I know I am saved by the blood of Jesus and through His resurrection I have been raised to live with God the Father for eternity.

What we should all fear at some point in our lives is eternal existence and the only way to fear eternal existence is to recognize that God has created you to be an eternal being.

The fear of God is the beginning of all wisdom and knowledge.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Quite the opposite is true for me. I don't fear death because I know I am saved by the blood of Jesus and through His resurrection I have been raised to live with God the Father for eternity.

Obviously, I'm not referring to fearing a "Christian death", but rather the sort of death that is a final stop to one's existence.

You do understand that, right? Why do you distort what I am saying? Out of fear, perhaps?

(Now contemplate your internal reaction at such armchair psychologizing.)


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Chriliman]

The point of this thread has been clearly made, by means of the thread itself.

True Scotsman you seem reasonable and you claim your philosophy is not based on assumptions. (Even though the only assumption you make is that God does not exist. I understand you disagree with this )

Eudaimonist, you seem reasonable except you can't see when you contradict yourself. I don't think you base your reasoning on assumptions either. Clarify if I'm wrong, I don't want to assume.

Quatona, I'm not certain, but based on your answers to my questions it seems you do not base your reasoning on assumptions. Again, clarify if I'm wrong.

DogmaHunter definitely bases his reasoning on assumptions.

HitchSlap definitely bases his reasoning on assumptions as well.

Bhsmte, I'm not sure about you because you don't answer questions very well.

Dlamberth, sorry but you just seem confused about God, I pray you find clarity in Jesus.

Madera23, you assumed I was not a true Christian from the beginning, which I don't appreciate, but I forgive you anyway

So, based on the above, I think it's pretty clear that we do have a problem at the bottom of reason. The problem is the question of whether we should base our reasoning on assumptions or observations. I believe we should not choose to make assumptions about life and the people in life, but rather we should just observe and ask questions and let the truth find us.

Sorry if you feel I've made unreasonable assumptions about your beliefs, I've really tried to be objective and ask honest questions, alas I'm only human. I'll continue to keep all of you in my prayers!

God bless!

 

[Chriliman]

Obviously, I'm not referring to fearing a "Christian death", but rather the sort of death that is a final stop to one's existence.

You do understand that, right? Why do you distort what I am saying? Out of fear, perhaps?

(Now contemplate your internal reaction at such armchair psychologizing.)


eudaimonia,

Mark

I thought you said you don't believe in non-existence? Another contradiction perhaps?

I do fear the pain of death(hopefully I won't experience too much pain), but I do not fear death itself because I know it has been rendered powerless by my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Quite the opposite is true for me. I don't fear death because I know I am saved by the blood of Jesus and through His resurrection I have been raised to live with God the Father for eternity.

It's funny, because by saying that... you actually confirm his thoughts.
You don't fear death because you believe.
By which it is implied that if you wouldn't believe, you would fear death.

This is not "the opposite" of what he said. It is...exactly what he said.

What we should all fear at some point in our lives is eternal existence and the only way to fear eternal existence is to recognize that God has created you to be an eternal being.
The fear of God is the beginning of all wisdom and knowledge.

This makes no sense in my ears.

 

[DogmaHunter]

The point of this thread has been clearly made, by means of the thread itself.

True Scotsman you seem reasonable and you claim your philosophy is not based on assumptions. (Even though the only assumption you make is that God does not exist. I understand you disagree with this )

Eudaimonist, you seem reasonable except you can't see when you contradict yourself. I don't think you base your reasoning on assumptions either. Clarify if I'm wrong, I don't want to assume.

Quatona, I'm not certain, but based on your answers to my questions it seems you do not base your reasoning on assumptions. Again, clarify if I'm wrong.

DogmaHunter definitely bases his reasoning on assumptions.

HitchSlap definitely bases his reasoning on assumptions as well.

Bhsmte, I'm not sure about you because you don't answer questions very well.

Dlamberth, sorry but you just seem confused about God, I pray you find clarity in Jesus.

Madera23, you assumed I was not a true Christian from the beginning, which I don't appreciate, but I forgive you anyway

So, based on the above, I think it's pretty clear that we do have a problem at the bottom of reason. The problem is the question of whether we should base our reasoning on assumptions or observations. I believe we should not choose to make assumptions about life and the people in life, but rather we should just observe and ask questions and let the truth find us.

Sorry if you feel I've made unreasonable assumptions about your beliefs, I've really tried to be objective and ask honest questions, alas I'm only human. I'll continue to keep all of you in my prayers!

God bless!

I can only conclude that you haven't understood a single point I made.

 

[KCfromNC]

Interesting...does the following make any sense to you?

To know there is no God one would have to know and experience all things, because God could be within an area that they do not know or in which they have not experienced.

This is only a problem if you pretend that knowledge requires 100% airtight certainty. But that's an impossible standard since humans aren't omniscient. And yet despite this, everyone will say they know lots of things and would find the idea that knowledge is impossible to be absurd. This points to a significant problem with the way you're using the word knowledge.

To know there is no God, one would have to be in all places simultaneously because God could or have revealed Himself in a place where you are not (even to someone now, somewhere else). You would have to have known all and been everywhere during all of the past, the present, and in all possible futures in case God was revealing Himself when you were not.

Same problem with knowing that there's just one God. Do you claim to know that monotheism is correct because you exist in all places simultaneously for all eternity? Or do you not assert that there is just one god?

 

[KCfromNC]

Quite the opposite is true for me. I don't fear death because I know I am saved by the blood of Jesus and through His resurrection I have been raised to live with God the Father for eternity.

No, you don't "know" this. You'd have to live for eternity to "know" this is true and observe the entire universe to know that it isn't more than your god helping out. At least it would be if you applied the same impossible standard as you did in the other post I just responded to.

Just another example of playing word games and shifting double standards. Others can't have knowledge because they aren't omniscient. But I can know simply because some old guy in a funny hat wrote it down.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I thought you said you don't believe in non-existence? Another contradiction perhaps?

I can't tell if you are intentionally being obtuse, or I am just a very poor communicator.

I do fear the pain of death(hopefully I won't experience too much pain), but I do not fear death itself because I know it has been rendered powerless by my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

You are completely missing the point I'm trying to make. I don't understand why.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Chriliman]

This is only a problem if you pretend that knowledge requires 100% airtight certainty. But that's an impossible standard since humans aren't omniscient. And yet despite this, everyone will say they know lots of things and would find the idea that knowledge is impossible to be absurd. This points to a significant problem with the way you're using the word knowledge.

When I claim I know something, I'm saying I believe it. Belief solves the problem of having to know everything. I know I do not know everything, which is why I must believe. This has been my point the whole time, its just non-believers, don't understand what it truly means to believe in something because they're so focused on not believing in one thing and that one thing is God. God is the very thing they should believe in to find truth.

Same problem with knowing that there's just one God. Do you claim to know that monotheism is correct because you exist in all places simultaneously for all eternity? Or do you not assert that there is just one god?

Again, I'm not claiming to know everything at all times, I'm claiming I believe there is one single God who does know everything at all times. I try not to make assertions, but rather claim beliefs and back up those beliefs with sound reason. What else would you have me do besides provide physical evidence for something that is not physical? Provide physical evidence for an unknowable singularity and I'll believe in it, oh wait it's impossible to provide physical evidence for something that is unknowable.

Sound reason that makes sense for the existence of something, should suffice in allowing someone to believe in the existence of that something, otherwise they are being unreasonable.

 

[KCfromNC]

When I claim I know something, I'm saying I believe it. Belief solves the problem of having to know everything.

So then basically your whole objection where you said knowledge required omniscience was just a smokescreen and you didn't really mean it. Why did you post it in the first place?