[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] A problem at the bottom of reason

[Chriliman]

You're trying to say with this post that reason is faith based because we can not prove that reality is real.

Here is the simplest way to look at this issue. If something exists, there is no evidence for its existence above and beyond the fact that it exists. So this whole idea that we have to accept the fact that there is a reality, that things exist, without evidence, i.e. on faith, is fallacious because it commits the fallacy of the stolen concept. The idea is ridiculous. We literally have all the evidence in the world. The self evident does not need to be proved, it is outside the province of proof because it is a precondition of any proof. So if one begins his reasoning with the fact that reality is real, there is no problem. All of the so called philosophical problems are the result of the denial of one or more axiomatic concepts, usually the axiom of identity. I don't think you have any understanding of what an axiomatic concept is even though I've tried to explain it to you.

I agree, our reasoning is based on the observation of reality and is not based on an assumption about reality. Assumptions come after we've observed reality.

 

[madera23]

This whole topic is nuts.what is wrong with you people?

 

[Chriliman]

This whole topic is nuts.what is wrong with you people?

Why do you think God gave us brains and filled us with His Spirit if not to speak His truth through us?

 

[madera23]

IF YOUR GOD GAVE YOU BRAINS FOR THIS TOPIC, YOUR GOD IS GOD ONLY IN YOUR IMAGINATIONS.
WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE.???

 

[Chriliman]

IF YOUR GOD GAVE YOU BRAINS FOR THIS TOPIC, YOUR GOD IS GOD ONLY IN YOUR IMAGINATIONS.
WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE.???

No need to yell, God wants us to think. If you truly believe you are nothing without Jesus Christ, then you don't even need to understand any of this because you have the truth already. However, some people are so far from the truth that God needs thinkers to dig deep and reach those people. I feel lead to be a servant in that area and dig deep with those who are too blinded to realize the truth for themselves.

 

[madera23]

No need to yell, God wants us to think. If you truly believe you are nothing without Jesus Christ, then you don't even need to understand any of this because you have the truth already. However, some people are so far from the truth that God needs thinkers to dig deep and reach those people. I feel lead to be a servant in that area and dig deep with those who are too blinded to realize the truth for themselves.

You call this truth? lol?

 

[Chriliman]

You call this truth? lol?

As I've said from the beginning, I call Jesus truth. Amen?

 

[madera23]

As I've said from the beginning, I call Jesus truth. Amen?

This conversation Is not coming from Jesus.
when you become a real Christian you will know the difference.

 

[Chriliman]

This conversation Is not coming from Jesus.
when you become a real Christian you will know the difference.

It takes a deep personal conversation with someone about their story of how Jesus saved them to really understand if someone is a Christian. That's difficult to do on a forum.

The last thing I would do is emediatly assume someone is not a Christian based on a forum topic they started. This is exactly what you've done, which only supports my point that we should avoid making assumptions before we know the entire truth.

I'd be glad to share my personal testimony with you through private messaging if you think that would help you find the truth about me

 

[madera23]

It takes a deep personal conversation with someone about their story of how Jesus saved them to really understand if someone is a Christian. That's difficult to do on a forum.

The last thing I would do is emediatly assume someone is not a Christian based on a forum topic they started. This is exactly what you've done, which only supports my point that we should avoid making assumptions before we know the entire truth.

I'd be glad to share my personal testimony with you through private messaging if you think that would help you find the truth about me

I don't need to know your history, I see the results.

 

[Chriliman]

I don't need to know your history, I see the results.

Thank God for His grace. In the end if we both believe in Jesus, we'll both be forgiven of our sins, no matter what we say to each other. Amen?

 

[True Scotsman]

I agree, our reasoning is based on the observation of reality and is not based on an assumption about reality. Assumptions come after we've observed reality.

Not always. My philosophy makes no assumptions. That's why I adopted it. And not everyone bases their reasoning on observation of reality. Theism has as it's first premise that reality is the product of a consciousness. Talk about an assumption (acceptance without proof). Where can this be observed? It can't. In fact our only alternative is to imagine such a thing and then accept that what is imagined is real. That is my number one objection against theism and as far as I can tell, it is an insurmountable problem for theism.

 

[Chriliman]

Not always. My philosophy makes no assumptions. That's why I adopted it. And not everyone bases their reasoning on observation of reality. Theism has as it's first premise that reality is the product of a consciousness. Talk about an assumption (acceptance without proof). Where can this be observed? It can't. In fact our only alternative is to imagine such a thing and then accept that what is imagined is real. That is my number one objection against theism and as far as I can tell, it is an insurmountable problem for theism.

I was saying we don't have to assume anything about reality. We agree on that.

You claim your philosophy makes no assumptions, yet you assume God does not exist. Explain that.

You've accepted that God does not exist because you have no proof of God, correct? Yet the concept of God is possible, so your deliberately rejecting that possibility in order to hold your belief that it's impossible for God to exist.

If you think God is possible, then you're making an assumption that He does not exist, so in fact your philosophy is based on the assumption that God does not exist.

I've explained how basing reasoning on belief in reality leads to belief in God and I can give sound reasons for every aspect of my belief. Read through the forum again if you want.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I wouldn't spend so much time trying to explain God to you, if I was full of myself. I'm just being honest.

No, you are trying to act like a mind-reader, and telling me in advance what what I will see as truth. You can only honestly speak for your own experiences.

Just imagine that I were to tell you that the only reason that you are a Christian is out of fear of death, and if you only didn't fear non-existence you would see the truth that there is no God. What would be your internal reaction?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[True Scotsman]

I was saying we don't have to assume anything about reality. We agree on that.

You claim your philosophy makes no assumptions, yet you assume God does not exist. Explain that.

You've accepted that God does not exist because you have no proof of God, correct? Yet the concept of God is possible, so your deliberately rejecting that possibility in order to hold your belief that it's impossible for God to exist.

If you think God is possible, then you're making an assumption that He does not exist, so in fact your philosophy is based on the assumption that God does not exist.

I've explained how basing reasoning on belief in reality leads to belief in God and I can give sound reasons for every aspect of my belief. Read through the forum again if you want.

I do not assume God does not exist. It is not an assumption but a conclusion based on reason. I do not think it is possible for God to exist. My philosophy is not based on the assumption that God does not exist. At most it is a trivial consequence of my philosophy.

My philosophy is based on the axioms existence, that existence exists, consciousness, that consciousness is consciousness of something, and identity, that to exist is to be something. The context of these axioms entails a forth, the primacy of existence, that existence exists independently of consciousness. This is the base and starting point of my philosophy. If I accept these premises, and to deny them would be worse than futile, I have no choice if I want to be honest but to reject the claims of a God. It's that simple. If the axioms and the primacy of existence are true then there can be no such thing as a consciousness on which all of existence depends. The very idea that existence depends on something prior to it is fallacious. So no assumptions on my part.

 

[Chriliman]

No, you are trying to act like a mind-reader, and telling me in advance what what I will see as truth. You can only honestly speak for your own experiences.


eudaimonia,

Mark

True, I cannot read your mind and true I can only speak honestly from my experiences. Yay we agree on something!

 

[Chriliman]

I do not assume God does not exist. It is not an assumption but a conclusion based on reason. I do not think it is possible for God to exist. My philosophy is not based on the assumption that God does not exist. At most it is a trivial consequence of my philosophy.

My philosophy is based on the axioms existence, that existence exists, consciousness, that consciousness is consciousness of something, and identity, that to exist is to be something. The context of these axioms entails a forth, the primacy of existence, that existence exists independently of consciousness. This is the base and starting point of my philosophy. If I accept these premises, and to deny them would be worse than futile, I have no choice if I want to be honest but to reject the claims of a God. It's that simple. If the axioms and the primacy of existence are true then there can be no such thing as a consciousness on which all of existence depends. The very idea that existence depends on something prior to it is fallacious. So no assumptions on my part.

Interesting...does the following make any sense to you?

To know there is no God one would have to know and experience all things, because God could be within an area that they do not know or in which they have not experienced. Even if one were to have all the knowledge and experience of 50% of the Britannica, that would mean that there is 50% they cannot know nor have experienced. So to know God is not, one has to know all.

To know there is no God, one would have to be in all places simultaneously because God could or have revealed Himself in a place where you are not (even to someone now, somewhere else).

You would have to have known all and been everywhere during all of the past, the present, and in all possible futures in case God was revealing Himself when you were not.

Finally, you would have to be aware of all that which is and/or has been known or experienced by all individuals of all times, in case He had revealed Himself to only certain peoples, at certain times.

So in effect, to know there is no God, you would have to be omniscient, omnipresent, and eternal, and able to experience the experience of all others, for any who may be able to receive illumination or revelation that God is. So to believe with conviction that there is no God, one then has to be exactly what is called God thus proving God IS.

If you don't believe in God, the above will not make sense. If you believe God is possible the above will make sense.

 

[HitchSlap]

No need to yell, God wants us to think. If you truly believe you are nothing without Jesus Christ, then you don't even need to understand any of this because you have the truth already. However, some people are so far from the truth that God needs thinkers to dig deep and reach those people. I feel lead to be a servant in that area and dig deep with those who are too blinded to realize the truth for themselves.

How's that working out for ya'?

 

[True Scotsman]

Interesting...does the following make any sense to you?

To know there is no God one would have to know and experience all things, because God could be within an area that they do not know or in which they have not experienced. Even if one were to have all the knowledge and experience of 50% of the Britannica, that would mean that there is 50% they cannot know nor have experienced. So to know God is not, one has to know all.

To know there is no God, one would have to be in all places simultaneously because God could or have revealed Himself in a place where you are not (even to someone now, somewhere else).

You would have to have known all and been everywhere during all of the past, the present, and in all possible futures in case God was revealing Himself when you were not.

Finally, you would have to be aware of all that which is and/or has been known or experienced by all individuals of all times, in case He had revealed Himself to only certain peoples, at certain times.

So in effect, to know there is no God, you would have to be omniscient, omnipresent, and eternal, and able to experience the experience of all others, for any who may be able to receive illumination or revelation that God is. So to believe with conviction that there is no God, one then has to be exactly what is called God thus proving God IS.

If you don't believe in God, the above will not make sense. If you believe God is possible the above will make sense.

No it does not make sense to me. I don't have to know all things. By the law of identity, a contradiction can not exist. This is why I need not search the entire universe before declaring that square circles do not exist. That is the power of the conceptual faculty. It takes us beyond the perceptual level and extends our capacity to know to the entirety of existence.

I can know it and so can anyone else. It doesn't take that much intellect. This is because one can never be called upon to prove a negative. I don't start with nothing and then attempt to prove non existence. I can not be expected and have no obligation to look for evidence of the non-existence of something.

I start with reality and show that the idea of God contradicts its most fundamental principles.

God does exist, in the imagination. But imaginary things do not exist in reality. It's not my fault that theists start their world view with an imaginary starting point. It is theirs.

 

[Chriliman]

No it does not make sense to me. I don't have to know all things. By the law of identity, a contradiction can not exist. This is why I need not search the entire universe before declaring that square circles do not exist. That is the power of the conceptual faculty. It takes us beyond the perceptual level and extends our capacity to know to the entirety of existence.

I can know it and so can anyone else. It doesn't take that much intellect. This is because one can never be called upon to prove a negative. I don't start with nothing and then attempt to prove non existence. I can not be expected and have no obligation to look for evidence of the non-existence of something.

I start with reality and show that the idea of God contradicts its most fundamental principles.

God does exist, in the imagination. But imaginary things do not exist in reality. It's not my fault that theists start their world view with an imaginary starting point. It is theirs.

If only atheists actually questioned each other. Some of you believe God is possible some believe God is not possible. Some believe in magic gnomes and fairies(always comparing these to God), still others believe in cosmic eggs and unknowable singularities. Why is their so much contradiction and confusion among atheist "beliefs"?

I question other Christians if their beliefs don't line up with what I believe a true Christian should believe and often times I learn something new from questioning. I don't question because I think I'm right about everything, but rather I question in an attempt to learn something either about them or about my own beliefs. Ultimately, the truth is simple for me, the truth is Jesus. Thankfully, I live in America where I can freely say that, but who knows that may change in the future, but for now I can freely proclaim my beliefs.

At least we can all agree, that hopefully that won't change.

God bless!