Performing an exorcism

[Dave-W]

Personally, having seen the damage done by some cowboys who think they know what they're doing, but really don't, I'm quite happy to leave it to the experts.

Yeah - that "cowboy" approach was what Dr Sumrall did and taught. As an old line pentecostal, I am not sure he was familiar with the use of discerning of spirits gift. I never heard him mention it at all.

Frankly, the more liturgical approach I have seen in the RCC (and I understand the Orthodox approach is similar) seems to not use that gift either. I find that disturbing.

 

[Dave-W]

I am going to give a plug here for some personal friends of mine, a ministry that I have helped with and been helped by for the last 25+ years: PRMI. (Presbyterian Reform Ministries international) In their Dunamis training seminars they have one on Spiritual Warfare that has some excellent "how to" instruction on discerning of spirits and deliverance.

 

[seekingmuch]

That passage is not talking about exorcism or demon activity at all.

That's what preachers said it was for, but I get your point.

http://www.equip.org/perspectives/binding-and-loosing-what-did-jesus-mean/

 

[Dave-W]

That's what preachers said it was for, but I get your point.

Yeah - I grew up with that teaching also.

Then I took a class in basic Judaism and found out that they were common rabbinic terms meaning what was allowed and what was forbidden; part of the rabbis' instructions to their congregants on how to obey the Law of Moses. It varied from rabbi to rabbi.

Bind => that which is forbidden
loose => that which is permitted

Example: Jesus and disciples are walking thru a field on the sabbath and they start to eat a few heads of grain.

Rabbi Shammai said that was bound - forbidden - picking heads of grain was considered harvesting - work.

Rabbi Hillel said that was loosed - permitted - picking a few heads of grain for personal consumption did not rise to the level of "harvesting" and thus was allowed. It was NOT work.

 

[Francis Drake]

It's interesting, we are taught to pray by Jesus "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven."

A similar cosmology to what you mention is present in some of Dallas Willard's books.

CS Lewis in his Science-fiction had a theory that the Moon was the limit of the Devil's influence, ie. he could not reach beyond the moon's orbit.

Paul understood that heaven had at least 3 levels.
2 Cor12v2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a man was caught up to the third heaven.

My understanding is-
1st level, the atmosphere, visible stars and planets etc. ie. space above us.
2nd level, the mid heavens, the realm that Satan also inhabits.
3rd heaven, God's habitation, paradise, the throne room. etc.

In Daniel 10, when the angel was sent to speak to Daniel, he stated that he had been delayed 21 days battling against the "Prince of Persia". He managed to get through with the aid of the Arch angel Michael.

The Prince of Persia is not a human prince, but the demonic spirit that ruled over Persia in the heavenly realm.
This indicates that between earth and heaven there is a sphere of demonic territory above earth and beneath God's heaven.

 

[dms1972]

Paul understood that heaven had at least 3 levels.
2 Cor12v2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a man was caught up to the third heaven.

My understanding is-
1st level, the atmosphere, visible stars and planets etc. ie. space above us.
2nd level, the mid heavens, the realm that Satan also inhabits.
3rd heaven, God's habitation, paradise, the throne room. etc.

In Daniel 10, when the angel was sent to speak to Daniel, he stated that he had been delayed 21 days battling against the "Prince of Persia". He managed to get through with the aid of the Arch angel Michael.

The Prince of Persia is not a human prince, but the demonic spirit that ruled over Persia in the heavenly realm.
This indicates that between earth and heaven there is a sphere of demonic territory above earth and beneath God's heaven.

Thanks for your comments. My study suggests there is a realm of spiritual battle reserved for holy angels and against the powers of darkness, so there are planes of warfare.

This seems to have been mistaught and misapplied in some quarters. The popular novel by Frank Peretti, This Present Darkness actually tends toward a somewhat Zoroastrian view of spiritual warfare (see for instance David Wells : Above All Earthly Pow'rs for a critique of Peretti's fiction. However on the plus side there is a emphasis on corporate prayer in his books, and it is the angels doing battle in response to prayer, so I would not like to criticise it unfairly, it is after all a story and its debatable how far Peretti intended it, if at all, to be a guide in actual spiritual battle, I think he only intended it to heighten awareness that there is a spiritual battle going on, not to say this is literally how it is taking place.

Jesse Penn Lewis seems to be another teacher who writing in this field errs by excessive focus on deception and demons, and Leanne Payne has given a valuable critique of her in this regard in Restoring the Christian Soul.

Payne is very instructive, detailing her own lessons learned in the course of many years of ministry.

Doreen Irvine emphasises the power of Praise in spiritual battle in her sequel to From Witchcraft to Christ titled Set Free to serve Christ. I think that's a good note to end this post on.

 

[dms1972]

That's what preachers said it was for, but I get your point.

http://www.equip.org/perspectives/binding-and-loosing-what-did-jesus-mean/

Thanks for that link, it seems to be a common misunderstanding.

 

[dms1972]

It's worth noting that not all clergy have been taught to do this. Not only that, but depending on the church you're in, there might be restrictions on who may attempt an exorcism.

As an Anglican priest, I am very specifically and clearly not authorised in my church to attempt deliverance ministry, but must refer people seeking such to particular colleagues who specialise in that.

I don't know what your church thinks of holy water, but if it is in agreement with it being used could you not use that if led by the Holy Spirit and the situation called for it? Normally holy water in churches that use it (not superstitiously or only symbolically), is prepared and prayed over in the sacristy and has the prayers of the church behind it, the effect of divine grace and those prayers is delivered through sprinkling etc. There is nothing 'magical' about it, any results are from prayer.

 

[Paidiske]

I could use holy water, but again, I am not authorised to practice deliverance ministry.

 

[dms1972]

I could use holy water, but again, I am not authorised to practice deliverance ministry.

I think I understand what you are saying, I suppose without pressing the metaphor too far its like any one can put bleach down a drain from time to time, but sometimes one needs to call out Dyno-rod.

 

[Dave-W]

I think I understand what you are saying, I suppose without pressing the metaphor too far its like any one can put bleach down a drain from time to time, but sometimes one needs to call out Dyno-rod.

It is more like you may need to call a licensed professional plumber.

 

[Dave-W]

All born again believers with the baptism of the Holy Ghost as evidenced by speaking in tongues have authority over all demons because of Christ's victory.

I would shorten that to "All born again believers." Period.

However, just because we all have that authority does not mean we are especially gifted in this type of ministry.

 

[Paidiske]

Or that we should all just wade in.

Even I, for example, know that the first rule of deliverance ministry is "never attempt it alone."

 

[Dave-W]

there are planes of warfare.

View attachment 239357

 

[Dave-W]

Sorry for the double post but the pic was not showing up ...

 

[Francis Drake]

Or that we should all just wade in.

Even I, for example, know that the first rule of deliverance ministry is "never attempt it alone."

Although I prefer to have company for collective discernment, over the last 40 years I've successfully done deliverance plenty of times alone.
And I'm just a nobody in the church.

 

[Paidiske]

I'm not saying it can't be done successfully alone... but that good practice, for the safety of everyone concerned, is not to do so.

But now I am verging on breaking the rule about not giving instructions on how to do deliverance ministry, so perhaps we ought to leave that there.

 

[Dave-W]

Or that we should all just wade in.

Even I, for example, know that the first rule of deliverance ministry is "never attempt it alone."

Excellent point.

Unfortunately that was never articulated by either Sumrall or Prince. Some of their associates even advocated that a person could minister deliverance to themselves.

Even as a kid who had seen numerous deliverances, that just seemed dumb.

 

[Francis Drake]

Some of their associates even advocated that a person could minister deliverance to themselves.

Even as a kid who had seen numerous deliverances, that just seemed dumb.

Self deliverance is not dumb. It should be part of every believer's arsenal.

Co-opting someone else to help in self deliverance is great from a discernment point of view, but your own words of command are the greatest of all weapons.

 

[dms1972]

It is more like you may need to call a licensed professional plumber.

What I meant was sometimes there can be a major blockage, that dis-infectant would not shift, so someone with the means to pump water under pressure into the drain is called in. But as I said I don't want to press the analogy too far.