Perfection

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yikes! Jesus was made perfect yet was without sin. To be perfect does not require sin, even God is perfect and he has no sin. (Matthew 5:48)

Jesus become sin for us when He died on the cross. He became imperfect, that's why He cried out, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" The only reason why God would forsake Jesus was that while he hung on the cross He became sin for every person who ever lived. This was totally unacceptable to the Father, because He cannot fellowship with sin, and because His Son became sin for us, the Father turned His face away from Him.

But, in rising from the dead, He gained perfection again, and is now the glorious, risen Christ. Because He became perfect through His resurrection, and has given us the title deed of His righteousness to make us acceptable to God right here and now, our perfection will be fully ratified when we rise from the dead, as Jesus did.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Jesus become sin for us when He died on the cross. He became imperfect, that's why He cried out, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" The only reason why God would forsake Jesus was that while he hung on the cross He became sin for every person who ever lived. This was totally unacceptable to the Father, because He cannot fellowship with sin, and because His Son became sin for us, the Father turned His face away from Him.

But, in rising from the dead, He gained perfection again, and is now the glorious, risen Christ. Because He became perfect through His resurrection, and has given us the title deed of His righteousness to make us acceptable to God right here and now, our perfection will be fully ratified when we rise from the dead, as Jesus did.

Oscarr, we should talk about this one. Please look at Psalm 22:1 and compare. Christ wasn't doing what you have been told he was doing.

Christ's prayer rule was every three hours. At the ninth hour he was praying the psalms.

Forgive me...

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

This is a pretty low standard; it should be easy to do better.

(Matthew 23:13) But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!​

Looking at the context it would seem that Jesus is only saying that except one has a different righteousness than the Pharisees and the scribes, because their's was self righteousness so we are to take on the righteousness of Jesus Christ by faith just as our father, Abraham who is called the father of the faith. Our perfection that we are commanded to have, is the perfection of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Tayla]

From your remarks, it seems that you don't see yourself as God sees you. When the righteousness of Christ was bestowed on us, it was not an imperfect righteousness, because Jesus is not an imperfect Saviour. He is a complete Saviour. So that the righteousness that God has bestowed on us is that of Christ, who is absolutely perfect. We might see ourselves as imperfect, that is why we don't trust in our own righteousness. Actually, the word righteous means acceptable. When the New York police shoot a criminal, the shooting is evaluated to see if it righteous. That means, was the shooting of the criminal acceptable due to the circumstance in which it happened?

Before we received Christ, we were unacceptable to God. All we had was our own righteousness which was as filthy rags in the sight of God. If we trust in our own efforts to be holy, then we are not trusting Christ at all, we are trusting ourselves and our own righteousness; and this is still filthy rags before God.

So we have a choice, receive the righteousness of Christ through faith, or trust our own righteousness through our efforts to be holy. The former brings us into fellowship with God, the latter does not.

We have already received the title deed of full acceptability before God. We own it, even though we have still to take possession of it. Because we own it now, we can reckon ourselves as perfect before God, not because of our own frailties and shortcomings, but because of the complete, perfect righteousness of Christ which has been given to us by God handing us the title deed to it when we received Christ.

This is why the Writer to the Hebrews made the statement, "Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen". The title deed that we have received concerning our perfection (the righteousness of Christ) is our evidence that we are perfect before God, even though we don't see it yet.

Sorry, I'm not a Protestant. I reject all the novel doctrines Martin Luther invented such as total depravity and everything that comes from it. His only correct doctrines were those Catholic doctrines he didn't jettison.

 

[Tayla]

If that's what you are doing, you are trying to be holy in your own strength and therefore not trusting in the righteousness of Christ which has been given to you. What! Is the righteousness of Christ not perfect then? Is Jesus not a complete Saviour?

Not in my own strength but through the grace of God.

 

[Tayla]

Looking at the context it would seem that Jesus is only saying that except one has a different righteousness than the Pharisees and the scribes, because their's was self righteousness so we are to take on the righteousness of Jesus Christ by faith just as our father, Abraham who is called the father of the faith. Our perfection that we are commanded to have, is the perfection of our Lord Jesus Christ.

My complaint about this Protestant perspective is that we never become perfect as Jesus commanded, nor do we strive for perfection as Jesus commanded. Rather, Jesus merely hides our total depravity from God the Father by covering us with his perfection.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The Church teaches that Christ pointed to HIS mother and St. John the Baptist as being the best ever born of women. Pointing to them as models.

Forgive me...

 

[sparow]

Let me try again to make it more obvious.

Adam was created sinless but was not perfect.
We sin but are perfect in Jesus' blood.

To be perfect requires sin.

Let me highlight this from scripture.

Hebrews 5:8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Here we have Jesus the Son of God who is always sinless, but scripture says he was made perfect by his action. Obviously perfection has to be something besides being sinless. What this scripture is referring to is the completion of God's plan for redemption.

Perfection is more about fulfillment of God's plan than a state of being sinless. And so we are perfect even though we sin, this through Jesus' blood. This is how we learn of God's love and grace. Adam would never be perfect until he sinned, because perfection is a gift from God, not earned through a righteous life. Further, God said we became like him when we sinned.

Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”


Of course all the churches that promote living a holy life for salvation will completely miss "my paradox".

Saved by Grace.

<<Adam was created sinless but was not perfect.>>

What does created sinless mean? At his creation Adam had no knowledge of Good and evil and he was not able to be disobedient until God gave him instruction.

<<We sin but are perfect in Jesus' blood.>>

According to Hebrews 5:8 Jesus became perfect during the course of His life as He learned obedience; so here perfection is obedience. And he is salvation for those who are obedient to him; this seems to contradict the grace doctrine.

 

[sparow]

My complaint about this Protestant perspective is that we never become perfect as Jesus commanded, nor do we strive for perfection as Jesus commanded. Rather, Jesus merely hides our total depravity from God the Father by covering us with his perfection.

This appears to me to be both the Protestant and the Catholic view; Jesus will decide who is saved and who isn't, but nothing is hidden all is revealed; in the messages to the seven churches, two churches are guaranteed salvation the rest as individuals have to overcome.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Sorry, I'm not a Protestant. I reject all the novel doctrines Martin Luther invented such as total depravity and everything that comes from it. His only correct doctrines were those Catholic doctrines he didn't jettison.

It's not Martin Luther's invention, it's in the Bible. All Martin Luther did was to read what Paul actually wrote.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

<<Adam was created sinless but was not perfect.>>

What does created sinless mean? At his creation Adam had no knowledge of Good and evil and he was not able to be disobedient until God gave him instruction.

And your point is? I don't think you are refuting anything I posted.

<<We sin but are perfect in Jesus' blood.>>

According to Hebrews 5:8 Jesus became perfect during the course of His life as He learned obedience; so here perfection is obedience. And he is salvation for those who are obedient to him; this seems to contradict the grace doctrine.

First, Jesus is the Son of God. He did not have to learn anything, let alone obedience. Treat "learn" not as expansion of his knowledge, but completion of an experience, aka being schooled.

Secondly, note two meanings of perfect.
1) be without sin, fault
2) complete

As my original post stated, Jesus was always perfect in the sense of being sinless, that would include being obedient. What you completely ignore in the text that I quoted is the word suffered. Why did Jesus die if all that is needed for salvation is obedience? There is an important reason why Jesus died. Jesus completed God's plan of redemption with his death/suffering. Jesus even said it.

John 19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Now your attempt to discredit "grace doctrine". I am not going to quote exact scripture that says we are saved by grace. I am sure you have already figured out a way to ignore those texts.

I just ask a simple question. How perfectly must we obey God's commands for us to be saved? You kid yourself if you think you can do it perfectly. So is one sin a day or a week or a month good enough to deserve salvation? Why did Jesus die if we could be perfect through obedience?

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Satan is a person, a living being, who resides in the spiritual realm. Our souls also reside in the spiritual realm and are plagued and influenced by this person, by Satan. His effect in the souls of humans is as you note, but the list of his influences is very long.

Let me know when you have the opportunity to meet him. I hear he hangs out with THIS person a lot:

Luke 7:35 But wisdom is proved right by all her children."

 

[Bro Hansen]

Jesus said:

“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matt 5:48 RSV

However, I’m always hearing people say that it is impossible to be perfect. Keeping in mind that the Lord helps us, is it that hard to repent of our sin?

Jesus said:

“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matt 5:48 RSV

However, I’m always hearing people say that it is impossible to be perfect. Keeping in mind that the Lord helps us, is it that hard to repent of our sin?

Having been first born into sin mankind would have continued to stand against, rebel, exalt our selves within the will of the devil, Satan.
Nothing we may think or desire could ever return our lost soul to be in the presence of God the Father in His kingdom; was it not for the will of God in Jesus determined before the foundation of the World - more importantly before any thought or action of lost man in Adam.
The great deceiver has, will continue to blind man from the perfect will of God in Jesus and we ourselves will continue to establish our hearts upon the satisfacrtion of self-righteousnss and justification, the spirit which blasphemes the perfect Word.
We all came forth into this world chained to the words of our deception, no matter how eloquent or versed in scripture one may be, I can not release you and you can not release me from the darkness of our words that are void of redemption, truth.

"Then you shall know that I have sent this commandment to you,
That My covenant with Levi may continue." Says the Lord of hosts.
"For the lips of a priest should keep knowledge. And people should seek the law from his mouth; for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts."
"Behold I send My messenger and he will, prepare the way before me. And the Lord, whom you seek Will, suddenly come to His temple."
"Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
And he will turn The hearts of the fathers to the children. And the hearts of the children to their farthers. Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse." (Malachi 2:4,7, 3:1, 4:5,6)

"There was a man sent from God, whos name was John. This man came for a witness to bear witness of the Light that all through him might believe."
"The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Behold the the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the World." (John 1:6,7,29)

www.nlmission.com

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Jesus said:

“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matt 5:48 RSV

However, I’m always hearing people say that it is impossible to be perfect. Keeping in mind that the Lord helps us, is it that hard to repent of our sin?

Whether it is hard to repent of sin or not,
all those who receive eternal life as seen after judgment day,
repented of their sin and obeyed God the rest of their life.

Those who don't receive eternal life, didn't repent.

Is it important how difficult it is to repent therefore ? Or how much suffering is required on earth ? Does anything at all compare to the surpassing great experiential knowledge, life, and union with JESUS in this life and the next !?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why, then, did Jesus tell us to repent (Matt 4:17)?

An understanding of what Jesus said helps a lot here.

"Turn to YHWH , because the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Who would rather remain under the control of satan, sin, the world and the flesh?
Most people do - they are more "comfortable", or "rich" (won't give up their money and belongings or family or friends or church or business or whatever) - so they choose not to turn to YHWH, not to obey Him, not to BE DOERS OF HIS WORD.
And they perish in their sinfulness.

 

[sparow]

And your point is? I don't think you are refuting anything I posted.

First, Jesus is the Son of God. He did not have to learn anything, let alone obedience. Treat "learn" not as expansion of his knowledge, but completion of an experience, aka being schooled.

Secondly, note two meanings of perfect.
1) be without sin, fault
2) complete

As my original post stated, Jesus was always perfect in the sense of being sinless, that would include being obedient. What you completely ignore in the text that I quoted is the word suffered. Why did Jesus die if all that is needed for salvation is obedience? There is an important reason why Jesus died. Jesus completed God's plan of redemption with his death/suffering. Jesus even said it.

John 19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Now your attempt to discredit "grace doctrine". I am not going to quote exact scripture that says we are saved by grace. I am sure you have already figured out a way to ignore those texts.

I just ask a simple question. How perfectly must we obey God's commands for us to be saved? You kid yourself if you think you can do it perfectly. So is one sin a day or a week or a month good enough to deserve salvation? Why did Jesus die if we could be perfect through obedience?

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

We should try to stay on topic; which is to do with perfection; the original post as I recall compared Matt 5:48 with a secular statement "It is impossible to be perfect"; which is to compare oranges with apples. The perfection mentioned in Hebrews 5:48 is defined in the previous verses; in the secular statement however "perfect" is not defined.

The scriptures defined "perfect" you will notice:

Psalm 18:30 (ASV)
30 As for God, his way is perfect: The word of Jehovah is tried; He is a shield unto all them that take refuge in him.

Psalm 19:7 (ASV)
7 The law of Jehovah is perfect, restoring the soul: The testimony of Jehovah is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 37:37 (ASV)
37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright; For there is a happy end to the man of peace.

Psalm 101:2 (ASV)
2 I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way: Oh when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart.

Psalm 101:6 (ASV)
6 Mine eyes shall be upon the faithful of the land, that they may dwell with me: He that walketh in a perfect way, he shall minister unto me.

Psalm 138:8 (ASV)
8 Jehovah will perfect that which concerneth me: Thy lovingkindness, O Jehovah, endureth for ever; Forsake not the works of thine own hands.

"Son of God' and "son of man" are Hebrew idioms. Hebrew 5:5 ... Thou art my Son, I to-day have begotten thee;. This is a paraphrase from His baptism.

Hebrews 5:8-9 (ASV)
8 though he was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 and having been made perfect, he became unto all them that obey him the author of eternal salvation;

You seem to be disputing or rephrasing these scriptures; while I reject other aspects of Hebrews I have never questioned this part.

The applications for the word perfect are endless; the is a basic concept that implies excellence but in religion the word is often used in a mystical or irrational way.

Regarding John 19:30; instead of it is finished Jesus could have said, it is perfect, except the grammar is changed; it all depends on what "it" refers to.

Paul is hard to fault but there are errors in his theology; Paul speaks most about Grace, Dispensationalism introduces the Gospel of Grace, even if Paul used the words; Dispensationalism does not use Paul's meaning.

To say the doctrine of grace is discredited implies the doctrine has had credit; the doctrine of grace is a doctrine of men and as such is a perfect example of trying to put words in God's mouth while discrediting everything He actually said.

The answer to your simple question is there is not a list of what to do; everybody's situation is unique, but all of God's word is to that end; God makes the simple wise so the do not need to ask the question.

 

[faroukfarouk]

What if I do not feel Godly sorrow?

So it's good to search the Scriptures about this topic of repentance, right? It goes hand in hand with the topic of faith.

 

[-Luca]

So it's good to search the Scriptures about this topic of repentance, right? It goes hand in hand with the topic of faith.

Hi there, what exactly is Godly sorrow? And Is it a good thing if someone feels it?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hi there, what exactly is Godly sorrow? And Is it a good thing if someone feels it?

It appears that term is only used in 2 Corinthians 7

For Godly Sorrow Worketh Repentance to Salvation, not to be Repented Of; but the Sorrow of the World Worketh Death. 2 Corinthians 7:10.

In this chapter the apostle refers to another epistle which he had formerly written to the church at Corinth, on a certain subject, in which they were greatly to blame. He speaks here of the effect that it; had, in bringing them to true repentance. They sorrowed after a godly sort. This was the evidence that their repentance was genuine....................................................


Btw, kewl user name.
Is that from "The Godfather" where the family is notified that Luca Brasi sleeps with the fishes?

..................

 

[faroukfarouk]

Hi there, what exactly is Godly sorrow? And Is it a good thing if someone feels it?

2 Corinthians 7 is a good passage to read, to see Godly sorrow it its context.