Perfection or no?

[Adstar]

So, in a recent discussion I came across the view that God does not demand perfection in the keeping of His commandments.

Anyone else feel that way?

What are His commandments ? Please reveal them..

 

[ToBeLoved]

So forgiveness amounts to just paying lip service. How does that work in a real relationship? For example: If a husband cheats on his wife all the time and just says he is sorry to her, do you think she would buy that he really repented? Surely not.

This truth is expressed in the Parable of the Two Sons, as well.

28 "But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him." (Matthew 21:28-32).


...

Why do people compare Christ, the Perfect One forgiving us to two people (both sinners) and what would happen between two unperfect people in a relationship?

And then after you ask an opinion on a relationship that is not about God, you start quoting scripture?

I don't think you should do this, go from an example of Christ and His righteous and just relationship with us, then to creating a scenario based on two imperfect people.

It's like veggies and meat and comparing them to each other.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You've seen and heard the verses plenty of times, cause I've seen many point them out to you on here, yet watched you just ignore them over and over again...? Your stuck in your ways, and this is quite pointless with you and a waste of my time, energy and effort...

And your ignoring the many verses that tell you to be perfect.

You haven't answered nor paid attention to, as you refuse to address anything I've said either, so I will waste no more time on this...

That is not true. I have answered you and others who believe as you do many times.

I will say this much to you, then I'm done...

If you do not admit you sin and are a sinner, then your a liar and calling God a liar (In 1 John)... (1 John 1:8-10) and are trying to spread a doctrine that is against Christ and are a false prophet/teacher, just like a pharisee...

And anyone is a liar if they say that they know Him and yet they do not keep His commandments according to 1 John 2:4. In other words, 1 John 2:4 does not line up with your wrong interpretation on 1 John 1:8. 1 John 1:10 says he that says he has not sinned (past tense). Surely we both agree that we have sinned in the past tense, yes? Yet, 1 John 1:10 is saying that anyone who says they have not sinned (past tense) is a liar. So 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10 is dealing with a false gnostic belief that is about a denial of sin in one's life. 1 John 1:8 is saying that if we say we have no sin (in the sense that sin does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. OSAS Proponents say that their sin is paid for in the present and future. So sin does not exist for them because Jesus paid for all of their sin by their belief on Jesus. But 1 John 1:8 says if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. See, 1 John 1:8 was written to the Eternal Security proponent who justifies sin.

Why should I waste my time on a liar...?

Jesus said we would be spoken evil of falsely.

Go headlong into the trap if you wish, see how much I care...

We as believers should care about even our enemies. For Jesus tells us to love, do good, and to pray for our enemies.

God Bless!

I do not see how these two words are compatible with your previous words.


...

 

[GingerBeer]

And none of them justified a sinful lifestyle.
Yes, some of them made mistakes, but God did not approve of them while they were in sin.
They were commended for their great acts of faith.
...

Yes, their acts of faith and acts of righteousness are commended by God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Why do people compare Christ, the Perfect One forgiving us to two people (both sinners) and what would happen between two unperfect people in a relationship?

And then after you ask an opinion on a relationship that is not about God, you start quoting scripture?

I don't think you should do this, go from an example of Christ and His righteous and just relationship with us, then to creating a scenario based on two imperfect people.

It's like veggies and meat and comparing them to each other.

Jesus used real world examples all the time. Jesus also said great was the faith of the woman who also used a parable. Parables parallel a real world truth with a spiritual truth. This is something that cannot be done with your belief. Look at the analogy of the parable of the two sons. How exactly does that line up with your belief? It simply doesn't.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, their acts of faith and acts of righteousness are commended by God.

But God also teaches in His Word that those who seek to justify sin will not make it.
Jude 1:4 talks about those who turn God's grace into a license for immorality.


...

 

[GingerBeer]

But God also teaches in His Word that those who seek to justify sin will not make it.
Jude 1:4 talks about those who turn God's grace into a license for immorality.
...

Yes, Jude speaks of judgement to come on those who are wicked.

Beloved, while I was giving all diligence to write unto you of our common salvation, I was constrained to write unto you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand unto this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Now I desire to put you in remembrance, though ye know all things once for all, that the Lord, having saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And angels that kept not their own principality, but left their proper habitation, he hath kept in everlasting bonds under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire. Yet in like manner these also in their dreamings defile the flesh, and set at nought dominion, and rail at dignities. But Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing judgment, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. But these rail at whatsoever things they know not: and what they understand naturally, like the creatures without reason, in these things are they destroyed. Woe unto them! for they went in the way of Cain, and ran riotously in the error of Balaam for hire, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah. These are they who are hidden rocks in your love-feasts when they feast with you, shepherds that without fear feed themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; wild waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the blackness of darkness hath been reserved for ever. And to these also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their works of ungodliness which they have ungodly wrought, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their lusts (and their mouth speaketh great swelling words), showing respect of persons for the sake of advantage.
Jude 1:3-16​

Verse 4 is in italics.

​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, Jude speaks of judgement to come on those who are wicked.

Beloved, while I was giving all diligence to write unto you of our common salvation, I was constrained to write unto you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand unto this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Now I desire to put you in remembrance, though ye know all things once for all, that the Lord, having saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And angels that kept not their own principality, but left their proper habitation, he hath kept in everlasting bonds under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire. Yet in like manner these also in their dreamings defile the flesh, and set at nought dominion, and rail at dignities. But Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing judgment, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. But these rail at whatsoever things they know not: and what they understand naturally, like the creatures without reason, in these things are they destroyed. Woe unto them! for they went in the way of Cain, and ran riotously in the error of Balaam for hire, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah. These are they who are hidden rocks in your love-feasts when they feast with you, shepherds that without fear feed themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; wild waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the blackness of darkness hath been reserved for ever. And to these also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their works of ungodliness which they have ungodly wrought, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their lusts (and their mouth speaketh great swelling words), showing respect of persons for the sake of advantage.
Jude 1:3-16​

Verse 4 is in italics.

​

They slipped in among us. That means they are deceptive enough to deceive many into thinking they are believers who live holy and righteous when they really do not believe that way.

Basically anyone who seeks to justify sin with God's grace on any level would fall under Jude 1:4. So if somebody tells me that I can commit suicide as a believer and be saved because of a belief on Jesus, they would be turning God's grace into a license for immorality. 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

And there are of course many more verses like these, as well.



...

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jesus used real world examples all the time. Jesus also said great was the faith of the woman who also used a parable. Parables parallel a real world truth with a spiritual truth. This is something that cannot be done with your belief. Look at the analogy of the parable of the two sons. How exactly does that line up with your belief? It simply doesn't.


...

First, if you are going to ask me a question, then at least be patient enough to wait for an answer instead of answering it for me. That's not very humble to tell someone else that you know them and their beliefs better than they do.

A parable is not a real world example. A parable contains both spiritual truths and physical truths.

What do you mean that 'this cannot be done with my belief"?

 

[ToBeLoved]

But God also teaches in His Word that those who seek to justify sin will not make it.
Jude 1:4 talks about those who turn God's grace into a license for immorality.


...

Jude 1:4 is not about Christians, it is about those who "snuck in unaware".

A Christian would be automatically part of the church and would not sneek in unaware.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Why do people compare Christ, the Perfect One forgiving us to two people (both sinners) and what would happen between two unperfect people in a relationship?

And then after you ask an opinion on a relationship that is not about God, you start quoting scripture?

I don't think you should do this, go from an example of Christ and His righteous and just relationship with us, then to creating a scenario based on two imperfect people.

It's like veggies and meat and comparing them to each other.

Take for example the Parable of the Banquet (Matthew 22:1-14). In this parable we see it say,

"The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son"

So here we see a king being described and a son. This is related to God the Father and the Son of God.

An Earthly example is used to illustrate a spiritual truth.

Also, the church is the bride of Christ. So Christ is like a husband and believers are like His wife. So I would say that the analogy does hold. For Paul says,

"For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ." (2 Corinthians 11:2).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jude 1:4 is not about Christians, it is about those who "snuck in unaware".

If they snuck in unaware they are those who are posing as Christians.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What do you mean that 'this cannot be done with my belief"?

You believe in Eternal Security or that "Sin Does Not Separate a Believer from God"? Yes?


...

 

[ToBeLoved]

If they snuck in unaware they are those who are posing as Christians.


....

But you did not say that. You were talking to someone who is a professed Christian using this verse to prove a point that those who make a justification for sin based on this verse, but this verse is not about professing believers at all.

This is your quote:

But God also teaches in His Word that those who seek to justify sin will not make it.
Jude 1:4 talks about those who turn God's grace into a license for immorality.

There is nothing about that verse being about non-Christians coming in with false teaching.
...

 

[ToBeLoved]

You believe in Eternal Security or that "Sin Does Not Separate a Believer from God"? Yes?


...

I believe as God's Word says that we were purchased by Christ for a price, a large price. And that when we are saved we are as Romans 4, 5 and 6 says we die to sin in Christ as He did. We are created into a new creation by Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit as a seal of the New Covenant being co-heirs with Christ to the Father and that the Holy Spirit is our down payment now and the rest of our inheritance will come after we die.

That is what I believe. I believe just as God's Word says that we 'changed' ownership/changed masters. That self and sin was our master and that after we are saved that Christ is our master. That this is a legal transfer of ownership like God's Word says.

Now why don't you get specific about what you believe.

 

[Gideons300]

Do you believe that a believer in Christ can walk away from the faith and lose their salvation?
Or do you think God only chooses to regenerate only those He knows will preserve?
Is there even a thing as living holy as a requirement in your belief?
Or can a believer die in one or two unrepentant sins (like lying or lusting after a woman) and still be saved?



Do you mind
And may God bless you.


...[/QUOTE]

I apologize for forgetting to address these.

Do you believe that a believer in Christ can walk away from the faith and lose their salvation?

Yes, of course. One would have to ignore a multitude of clear scriptural warnings to believe otherwise. We have been fed a view of grace that is not found in the Word. Who is it that is saved? He that endures to the end.

Is there even a thing as living holy as a requirement in your belief?

Are we not all called to be pure in heart, to live possessing our bodies in sanctification and honor? But lest we forget, there will be some who hav all their works burned up, but they will b saved, but as by fire. Were these living holy for achrist? Obviously not. Were they still saved? Obviously yes.

As sheep, we have been led into pastures that can barely sustain life, let alone live it abundantly. Many languish not because they choose to, but because they have been told that they must.be holy ,yet the only instruction they have is "Just do it." That is not being free indeed.

Hope this helps.

Blessings, Gideon

 

[TheSeabass]

Perfection or no?


Man has not mastered sin and has been warned that he has not, (1 Corinthians 10:12) and deceives himself if he thinks he has, (1 John 1:8). Therefore God does not require what is impossible from man. Even in the OT, the promises made to Abraham were not based upon sinless perfection but upon a faithful obedience which Abraham had, (Hebrews 11:8,17) and by which he was justified, (James 2:21-24). Philippians 3:12, Paul had not attained perfection but that was no excuse to quit striving for Paul would keep pressing on, v14. If man could be perfectly sinless, then there would be no need for the sacrifice of Christ. Since the Christian is not perfectly sinless, God created an avenue of second pardon for the Christian through repentance, (example- Acts 8:22).

The Christian is "holy and without blame" (Ephesians 1:4), "not having spot or wrinkle...holy, without blemish" (Ephesians 5:27). Since Christians do sin, then the only way for the Christian to ever be holy, without blame, without blemish, without wrinkle is by being "in Christ". Christ's obedience was perfect thereby making Christ's righteousness perfect. When one is baptized into Christ he puts on Christ (Galatians 3:27) thereby clothed in Christ's perfect righteousness. As long as the Christian continues to walk in the light, then the blood of Christ continue to cleanse away all sins (1 John 1:7) and is viewed by God as holy, without spot or blame or blemish....but the Christian must faithfully remain "in Christ" for God to see him in this manner.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Is there even a thing as living holy as a requirement in your belief?

Questions like that are good for this thread. When, somewhere along the line, any teaching conflicts with what is biblical, it is a false teaching.

I was spoken to as if "contributing to my own salvation" was a bad thing, when if we try to live right as God expects, even demands, we will be told we do wrong.

The same little trick/deception those that help Satan's cause use when we try to obey the rules God set up for us, we are being legalistic.

There are other ways these teachers give themselves away as well, I mean why be nice if we don't have to be?

 

[Kenny'sID]

If God did not expect sinlessness, then why did Christ have to die in your place?

So we could be forgiven the sin that *was* expected?

Was there a point to that question?

This is the foundation of the Gospel. It surprises me that there are any that would make the case that God does not demand perfection as such a thought makes the incarnation and the atonement devoid of purpose.

How does it make it devoid of purpose?