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Perfection or no?

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Reformationist

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GingerBeer said:
Is there a passage of holy scripture that says that God demands perfection of human beings?
Click to expand...

Do you mean to make the claim that God demands less than perfection?

If so, please explain the need for Christ.
 
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Reformationist

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The irony here is that, though Christians acknowledge that there is but one way that WE can be counted as righteous before God, the only way in which Christ could serve as a substitutionary atonement on our behalf is to keep the law of God in its entirety. We stand justified before God because of the imputed righteousness of Christ. Without His perfect obedience, God's requirement under the Law, Christ could not bear the iniquity of His people.

This is the foundation of the Gospel. It surprises me that there are any that would make the case that God does not demand perfection as such a thought makes the incarnation and the atonement devoid of purpose.
 
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GingerBeer

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Reformationist said:
Do you mean to make the claim that God demands less than perfection?

If so, please explain the need for Christ.
Click to expand...
If you cannot think of a passage wherein God demands perfection of human beings that is okay. It answers my question. Can you think of one or find one?
 
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Neogaia777

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GingerBeer said:
If you cannot think of a passage wherein God demands perfection of human beings that is okay. It answers my question. Can you think of one or find one?
Click to expand...
Matthew 5:48 is the most often used one...

There are others in there somewhere...

Matthew 5:20 says that your righteousness should be greater than that of the scribes and Pharisees...

That's all I know off the top of my head...?

But what is "perfect" I ask you...? How can we all be perfect, yet different and unique and not all the same...? Is everyone's perfect alike...?

God Bless!
 
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GingerBeer

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The kind of perfection that the original poster appears to be looking for is absolute and complete perfection.

Matthew 5:20,48 are good verses. They may hint at God expecting perfection that is as perfect as his own or that is at least better than the righteousness of the Pharisees.
 
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Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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Reformationist said:
Yeah, uh, I don't have any doubt that the Bible absolutely doesn't teach sinless perfectionism so I'm going to leave dealing with that bit of nonsense to someone else. Good luck with that.
Click to expand...

I know. Being perfect as Jesus tell us to be is a scary idea, right? Think of all the changes in our life that we would have to make in order for that to happen. We can't have that, now can we?

...
 
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Jesus compares being perfect with the Father being perfect.
The Father is perfect because He is holy and sinless.
If that is not enough for you to get it, God says in His Word point blank elsewhere,

Be ye holy because I am holy.

It does not get any clearer than that.

If that is still not enough for you to get it, Jesus even himself said, "The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master."


...
 
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1 John 3:7 says be not deceived, he that does righteousness is righteousness.

So righteousness is also doing things that are righteous, too.
If this was not the case, then Jesus's obedience would be worthless non sense.


...
 
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<staff edit>

If there is one teaching that is more evil and wrong in today's church it is Eternal Security or a belief that says "Sin is not separation from God" (on some level). Both of these beliefs basically say you can sin and still be saved (on some level).

Right. As if we can do evil so that good may come. For when an Eternal Security Proponent tells other people that they are saved no matter what they do, they will get the impression that they have a license to sin and they will minimize sin. Sure, some in the Eternal Security camp teach that you have to generally live a holy life in order for Eternal Security to be true, but many of them also teach that one sin cannot separate a believer from God (Which is a violation of basic morality or God's goodness). A perfect example of this is John Piper. He sounds great at preaching against sin. He makes you think you have to live holy in order for Eternal Security to be true for your life. But if you were to take a closer look at all of what he says, he also teaches that suicide is not a sin that will cause spiritual death in every case. But the moment we rationalize one sin as being okay with God, that is the moment we can rationlize other sins as being okay with God, as well (Which is wrong). If God saves us in our sins, then there would be no need to accept Jesus. For 1 John 3:23 is a command to believe on Jesus. Sin is merely breaking God's commands or laws (See 1 John 3:4).


...
 
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But most churches believe in Eternal Security or OSAS and most churches do not believe in actually following Jesus. Also, Matthew 7:14 is in context to Matthew 7:26-27. Jesus's final point was not that you can believe in Jesus and still be saved here. Jesus's point in verses 26-27 was that if one does not do what He says they are like a fool who built their house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. Also, those false believer Jesus told them to depart from Him who professed to do good works were said to have worked iniquity (sin) by Jesus in Matthew 7:23. No doubt believers today who think they can sin and still be saved do certain wonderful things in His name. But that is not enough to save them if they are justifying sin on some level. For God would have to agree with a believer's thinking that they can sin and still saved. But that is not possible because God is holy and righteous and good.


...
 
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DeerGlow

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It seems awfully hopeless to me.

Happy birthday though.
 
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Neogaia777

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It's not possible, especially in our own strength, and I don't mean this as any kind of accusation, but, I doubt that you can or are doing it either, especially not in your own strength...

Also Jesus also told someone that "if", "IF" they wanted to be, "perfect" then keep all of the commandments... And by that he meant the Old Covenant... Now, what is "implied" by that, what is the "spirit" of it, or behind it, when Jesus says "if" "IF" you want to be "perfect", what is implied, is that it is actually not possible to be perfect, especially by trying, especially in our own strength, especially by self-righteousness by law or keeping the old covenant commands, especially by your definition of perfect...

It is not possible for us to be perfect by the law or by studiously and dutifully keeping the old covenant commandments for anyone at all except Jesus himself, that is what is implied in nearly all the texts where Jesus mentions "perfection"... The implication behind it is that it is actually not possible by the old covenant commands (maybe by the new that Christ instituted involving perfect Love, and perfect faith) (those might "might", but it's a stretch, might be able to, by the end of them, be able to make us sinlessly perfect), but, I doubt it... You would be equal to Christ and God, if you could...

Are you equal to Christ and God Jason...? If you think you are, their is almost always usually a pride issue, which is a sin...

And, again, what is "perfect" if we are each, different and very unique "individuals"...?

If your going to focus on perfection, especially sinless perfection, then it will be at the very end, of being perfect in Faith and Love, which is the New Covenant...

Are you perfect in Faith, or Love...?

The whole "perfection" idea is a "trap" meant to catch (wicked) men, children of the Devil with pride issues, just like him, and identify them to the rest of us who believe in the very and more correct grace doctrine, who know just how imperfect we are...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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DeerGlow said:
It seems awfully hopeless to me.

Happy birthday though.
Click to expand...
Sinless perfectionism... The way they are saying to do it... It's a trap, that they are blindly walking into, saying "they see"... It is not correct doctrine, especially under the new covenant... They are blind but think they see...

God Bless!
 
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dqhall

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Reformationist said:
So, in a recent discussion I came across the view that God does not demand perfection in the keeping of His commandments.

Anyone else feel that way?
Click to expand...
In Romans 3:23 (WEB) Paul wrote, "...for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God"

God gave Jesus as an example. We should try to do better. I recall a Chinese fortune cookie proverb: "He who rests on laurels, gets pain in backside."

Jesus taught a parable about the shepherd who separates his sheep from his goats. A shepherd had to separate them at a feeding trough as the goats used their horns to push away the sheep for the goats wanted to be first.

Further along in the parable: Matthew 25:34 (WEB) Then the King will tell those on his right hand, ‘Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry, and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me drink. I was a stranger, and you took me in. 36 I was naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you visited me. I was in prison, and you came to me.’
 
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Neogaia777

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Jason0047 said:
1 John 3:7 says be not deceived, he that does righteousness is righteousness.

So righteousness is also doing things that are righteous, too.
If this was not the case, then Jesus's obedience would be worthless non sense.


...
Click to expand...
Being righteous is not being sinlessly perfect, especially the way you think of it...
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Oddly, you keep forgetting your obligation to God in your posts. There are two parts to that command.
 
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Neogaia777

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Jason0047 said:
Verses for this line of thinking please.


...
Click to expand...
You've seen and heard the verses plenty of times, cause I've seen many point them out to you on here, yet watched you just ignore them over and over again...? Your stuck in your ways, and this is quite pointless with you and a waste of my time, energy and effort...

You haven't answered nor paid attention to, as you refuse to address anything I've said either, so I will waste no more time on this...

I will say this much to you, then I'm done...

If you do not admit you sin and are a sinner, then your a liar and calling God a liar (In 1 John)... (1 John 1:8-10) and are trying to spread a doctrine that is against Christ and are a false prophet/teacher, just like a pharisee...

Why should I waste my time on a liar...?

Go headlong into the trap if you wish, see how much I care...

God Bless!
 
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