So, in a recent discussion I came across the view that God does not demand perfection in the keeping of His commandments.
Anyone else feel that way?
At least quote the whole verse.No. He that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8)
neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.Everyone who does evil hates the light (John 3:20).
1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.If one hates their brother no eternal life abides in them (1 John 3:15).
Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.Anyone who does not righteousness is not of God (1 John 3:10).
If we claim to have fellowship with him and walk in darkness we lie and do not the truth (1 John 1:6).
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:4).
He that does righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7).
If we walk in the light as he (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).
Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).
As for Romans 4:8: Well, this is reference to Initial Salvation (Justification). This is the receiving of Jesus Christ as one's Savior and believing in His death and resurrection for salvation. It is talking about Initial Salvation which is then followed by works or the process of Sanctification (the next step or stage in the salvation process). This is the Lord doing the good work in you; So a believer cannot pat themselves on the back and or to scream to people, "Hey everybody! Come see how I good I am." Jesus deserves all the glory, honor, and power. God's grace is a means to overcome sin and His grace is not a license to sin.
Anyways, if you were to continue to keep reading, it says the following,
21 "And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness."
(Romans 4:21-22).
No it doesn't.Verse 21 says that Abraham being persuaded (belief) he was able to perform (works), And this was imputed to him as righteousness.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:1 John 1:7 says a similar thing. If you walk in the light as he (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses you of all sin. Are you walking in the light of Christ. This is paralleled with keeping his commandments (See 1 John 2:3). Walking in darkness (1 John 1:6) is paralleled with not keeping his commandments (See 1 John 2:4).
First, Sinless Perfection is the goal and it is not a salvation issue.
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The New Covenant of love fulfills the Law. It is impossible for God to demand perfection from fallen human beings. In Christ, we stand righteous before the Father, and He is well pleased with us.
At least quote the whole verse.
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
You said:1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
You said:Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
You said:1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Again, 1 John 1:7 says he that walks in the light as he [Christ] is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses you from all sin. So in order to not have sin imputed to you, you have to WALK in the light of Christ. You have to walk in God's righteous ways or keep His commandments.You said:Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
You said:neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
You said:John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
You said:2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
Christ crucified!
You said:1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
You said:Love God, love your neighbor.
You said:Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
You said:Romans 3:18-24 There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
You said:1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
You said:1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
We trust in Christ and His work.
@Jason0047
See here please... I'd like to see a post from you in this thread...
What is your reason for wanting to be, or to thinking you are, "perfect"...?
And here...
Perfection or no?
Perfection or no?
Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
All mature adults have sinned in the past, but do true Christians have to sin in the future?Your goal should be to remain in Christ, let Him cover you. Your change will come. It will not happen in this flesh.
In Christ
Daniel
Again, I do not believe it is ultimately myself doing the good work when I am in obedience to God's commands in the New Testament. I believe it is Christ doing the good work through me. So I cannot pat myself on the back and tell others that I am saving myself of my own power alone. The good fruits in my life are the fruits of God and or Christ. For only God alone is good.
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That is exactly what the Pharisee did. It was God that did it in him. He gave all the credit to God.
That is why I told you to study this parable.
Luke 18:11-12
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
It is exactly what these people did, All in the Lord's name. They even did wonderful works in His name. Yet they weren't like the publican, pounding his chest.
You said:Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Sin exists because people do not keep God's laws perfectly.Law-keeping CAN'T be imperfect. It's KEEPING the law.
And such WERE some of you. If the brethren Paul had written to had still stolen on occasion or murdered on occasion, then Paul could not say, and such WERE some of you.
That would be like saying you WERE a police officer but you are still a police officer on occasion. Such a thing would be a contradiction. You either WERE a police officer (past tense) or not. John says he that says he knows Him (Jesus) and does not keep His commandments is a liar and truth is not in Him. Who determines what practicing sin is? What constitues living in sin? Is it committing sin every day or every week or every month? Every two weeks? Who determines what lines is crossed on who is living in sin or who is practing sin versus just doing sin on occasion? See, one is in darkness even if they claim to know Jesus and yet break even one command. 1 John 1:6 and 1 John 2:4 are clear on this. Jesus says if you do not forgive you will not be forgiven. Adam caused a separation between mankind and God by just one sin. So no. It does not take lots of sin to separate you from God. It only takes one sin.
Jason0047 said:A person who abides in Christ cannot commit sin. This means while you abide in Christ it is not possible to sin. Christ will leave a person if He knows they will commit sin and He will then convict them to repent so as to restore the relationship. Sin is separation from God. A person who has the seed of Christ abiding in them and they are born again spiritually cannot sin in that state. It is only when they come into a state of darkness (outside of fellowship of Christ) and the old man whereby they can be enticed and sin. For what fellowship does light have with darkness?
Jason0047 said:Surely Christians can sin. I was merely saying that Christians who mature in the faith will not be enslaved to sin in this life.
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When Paul said "such were some of you" he was speaking to the Corinthian's condition in the past before they became Christians. Yet the problem in Corinth were they, at lest for some of them, were going back to committing sins (fornication, idolatry, etc) which Paul was correcting in his epistle to them. In chpt 6 Paul tells them "Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren." The Christians there were doing wrong and defrauding each other. Paul then reminds them of the sins (such were some of you) they had come out of that yet some were getting back into again.
Living in sin is when a Christian continues in a particular sin impenitently. If a person was living in adultery, but converted to Christianity, then he cannot continue to live in adultery but must repent of it by coming out of that sinful state and remain out of it.
It most certainly is possible that one in Christ can sin. He deceives himself if he thinks he has no sin, 1 John 1"7-10. In 1 Cor 1:2 Paul addressed the church in Corinth "...Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus,...".
Though they were "in Christ Jesus" they still had committed sins, Paul wrote his epistle to instruct them in correcting and repenting of those sins else he would condemned them. They were still in a saved condition when Paul wrote them this letter but would not stay that way if the did not repent.
1 John 3:9 has 'cannot' in the present tense which means a Christian cannot CONTINUE living in sin impenitently. The law may say one CANNOT drive over 55mph but that does not mean it is IMPOSSIBLE for a person to drive over 55mph. As God's law says one CANNOT lie or steal does mean it is IMPOSSIBLE for one to lie or steal. 1 John 1:7 says IF the Christian CONTINUES to walk in the light then the blood of Christ CONTINUES to wash away all sins. So when the Christian does commit a sin he will not fall away from Christ nor does Christ leave that Christian ""IF"" he continues to walk in the light for all his sins will be forgiven on a continual bases by staying in the light.
Now above you just posted "A person who abides in Christ cannot commit sin. This means while you abide in Christ it is not possible to sin. "
So above you said it is NOT POSSIBLE for the Christian to sin. But here you say "Surely Christians can sin"
So can a Christian sin or is it NOT POSSIBLE for the Christian to sin?
Sorry Jason your understanding is way to shallow and misaligned. I just can't converse with you on this stuff. It like you use a topical Bible and just quote stuff out if it without really understanding the totality of scripture. We won't be having any conversations anymore.This is simply not true.
Jesus says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48).
James says, “If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.” (James 3:2).
The author of Hebrews says, “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).
Sinless Perfectionism is the goal for a believer’s life. For Paul says, “Not that I have already obtained it [this goal of being Christlike] or have already been made perfect, but I actively press on so that I may take hold of that [perfection] for which Christ Jesus took hold of me and made me His own.” (Philippians 3:12 AMP).
Jesus says, “The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.” (Luke 6:40).
Paul says, “Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12).
Paul says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
James says, “But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.” (James 1:4).
James also says, ““Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” (James 2:22).
Jesus says, ““Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.” (Revelation 3:2).
Paul says, “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).
Paul says, “And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all men, even as we do for you. To this end may He establish your hearts to be blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” (1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 MEV).
Paul says, “This work must continue until we are all joined together in the same faith [or all reach unity in the faith] and in the same knowledge of the Son of God. We must become like a mature person [or the perfect Man; Christ], growing until we become like Christ and have his perfection [ to the measure of the stature of Christ’s fullness ].” (Ephesians 4:13 EXB).
Paul says, “It is he whom we proclaim, admonishing everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone perfect in Christ” (Colossians 1:28 NABRE).
Paul says, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).
Paul says, “...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish” (Ephesians 5:25-27).
Paul says, “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.” (Philippians 2:15).
John says, “But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).
Real world example:
An alcoholic can condone his alcohol by him saying he can drink occasionally on his way to being sober free. But he will never be sober free because he has no intention of stopping.
If GOD is perfect in all He does, then why cannot GOD perfect a believer while they still live?
Are they saying they are more powerful than GOD?
For why would a person want to continue in sin on any level?
For if a person knew of a way to stop sinning so as to please God, why would they not want to take that chance?
For would not the opposite of Sinless Perfectionism be Sinful Imperfectionism? Is there such a thing as a “sinning saint”? What about a righteous sinner?
But some will object and say they believe that they are for living righteously. But how much should one live righteously? Are we to live righteously at about 90%? How about 80%? 75%? 20%? Is there a percentage that we do not cross the line at?
In other words, a person cannot be perfect as Jesus commands of them if they are thinking they will always sin in this life as a part of some uncontrollable sin nature. The word "perfect" is tied many times to a particular righteous action and not to just having a belief on Jesus.
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When Paul said "such were some of you" he was speaking to the Corinthian's condition in the past before they became Christians. Yet the problem in Corinth were they, at lest for some of them, were going back to committing sins (fornication, idolatry, etc) which Paul was correcting in his epistle to them. In chpt 6 Paul tells them "Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren." The Christians there were doing wrong and defrauding each other. Paul then reminds them of the sins (such were some of you) they had come out of that yet some were getting back into again.
Living in sin is when a Christian continues in a particular sin impenitently. If a person was living in adultery, but converted to Christianity, then he cannot continue to live in adultery but must repent of it by coming out of that sinful state and remain out of it.
It most certainly is possible that one in Christ can sin. He deceives himself if he thinks he has no sin, 1 John 1"7-10. In 1 Cor 1:2 Paul addressed the church in Corinth "...Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus,...".
Though they were "in Christ Jesus" they still had committed sins, Paul wrote his epistle to instruct them in correcting and repenting of those sins else he would condemned them. They were still in a saved condition when Paul wrote them this letter but would not stay that way if the did not repent.
1 John 3:9 has 'cannot' in the present tense which means a Christian cannot CONTINUE living in sin impenitently. The law may say one CANNOT drive over 55mph but that does not mean it is IMPOSSIBLE for a person to drive over 55mph. As God's law says one CANNOT lie or steal does mean it is IMPOSSIBLE for one to lie or steal. 1 John 1:7 says IF the Christian CONTINUES to walk in the light then the blood of Christ CONTINUES to wash away all sins. So when the Christian does commit a sin he will not fall away from Christ nor does Christ leave that Christian ""IF"" he continues to walk in the light for all his sins will be forgiven on a continual bases by staying in the light.
Now above you just posted "A person who abides in Christ cannot commit sin. This means while you abide in Christ it is not possible to sin. "
So above you said it is NOT POSSIBLE for the Christian to sin. But here you say "Surely Christians can sin"
So can a Christian sin or is it NOT POSSIBLE for the Christian to sin?
Your asking me to hours (or more) worth of work, I just don't want to put that much into it, when I know what is true....Did you provide explanations to the verses I posted?
See, that is how normal discussions about the truth of God's Word works.
it is not all one sided to the verses you prefer to see alone.
You have to actually explain the verses that I have brought forth.
Otherwise it looks like you are just looking at one set of verses in the Bible while you are ignoring others. So I will leave you to seek out a way to explain away the straight forward meaning of the verses I have put forth.
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So do you reject the divinity of Jesus? I ask because Ebionites who reject Paul also reject the divinity of Jesus. Anyways, there is no point in talking about the BIble then if you do not believe in all of it.
It is not the holey bible like a piece of swiss cheese. It is the Holy Bible that is divine and perfect.
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Sorry Jason your understanding is way to shallow and misaligned. I just can't converse with you on this stuff. It like you use a topical Bible and just quote stuff out if it without really understanding the totality of scripture. We won't be having any conversations anymore.
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