People without borders – What would you do?

[OldWiseGuy]

Besides we're waiting for Trump to foot the bill for the wall too. But sometimes forever is too long.

Perhaps Trump wasn't clear enough. I think he meant "Mexico will pay...dearly... for the wall."

 

[OldWiseGuy]

We don't need uncle sam's cabin to know what were doing tho.

I agree...you just legalized recreational pot. !!!!!

 

[~Zao~]

I agree...you just legalized recreational pot. !!!!!

I don't even smoke pot so why should I care what the boy blunder does. It's been Malace in blunder land since the stones and maggie hooked up.

 

[afishamongmany]

So I was watching Euronews earlier this evening. A piece came up on this subject with footage from Agadaz, Niger which is a major people smuggling hub for getting people across the Sahara to the Mediterranean coast. These things stuck with me:-
First, a local smuggler who was saying how now times were hard and the work more dangerous. This was because of a combination of the EU and certain EU countries tightening up controls and security and because of bandits and islamic terrorists. There were still 'customers' but 'not like it was'. He said he would still carry on, he had a family, it was his business, there was nothing else.
Secondly, it seems that now more people are dying/disappearing on the Sahara crossing than on the sea crossing.
Thirdly, the estimate is that at the moment about 3000+ people are 'stranded' in Libya unable to cross north or return south.
Lastly, in Agadaz, a young man from Guinea sat on the floor of a derelict house with about 7/8 other subsaharan africans. They were waiting to start the Saharan crossing. He said, It doesn't matter. We know we may not make it. They can do whatever they want (meaning I suppose governments, african and european), we will still try, there is nothing else.
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[~Zao~]

So I was watching Euronews earlier this evening. A piece came up on this subject with footage from Agadaz, Niger which is a major people smuggling hub for getting people across the Sahara to the Mediterranean coast. These things stuck with me:-
First, a local smuggler who was saying how now times were hard and the work more dangerous. This was because of a combination of the EU and certain EU countries tightening up controls and security and because of bandits and islamic terrorists. There were still 'customers' but 'not like it was'. He said he would still carry on, he had a family, it was his business, there was nothing else.
Secondly, it seems that now more people are dying/disappearing on the Sahara crossing than on the sea crossing.
Thirdly, the estimate is that at the moment about 3000+ people are 'stranded' in Libya unable to cross north or return south.
Lastly, in Agadaz, a young man from Guinea sat on the floor of a derelict house with about 7/8 other subsaharan africans. They were waiting to start the Saharan crossing. He said, It doesn't matter. We know we may not make it. They can do whatever they want (meaning I suppose governments, african and european), we will still try, there is nothing else.
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Exactly, it's the new free trade system of which supposedly slavery was abolished but is now the major world commodity. Any idea where most end up? My guess is on some Fear Cape episode.

 

[afishamongmany]

I agree...you just legalized recreational pot. !!!!!

I don't even smoke pot so why should I care what the boy blunder does. It's been Malace in blunder land since the stones and maggie hooked up.

...definitely a better choice then the Red Lanterns:

tulc(and less bloody)

Ok guys, please quit clogging up this thread with your snips and quips. CF is a big place go play politicos elsewhere.
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[Desk trauma]

So I was watching Euronews earlier this evening. A piece came up on this subject with footage from Agadaz, Niger which is a major people smuggling hub for getting people across the Sahara to the Mediterranean coast. These things stuck with me:-
First, a local smuggler who was saying how now times were hard and the work more dangerous. This was because of a combination of the EU and certain EU countries tightening up controls and security and because of bandits and islamic terrorists. There were still 'customers' but 'not like it was'. He said he would still carry on, he had a family, it was his business, there was nothing else.

Oh poor man, he's having a harder time fleecing the desperate.

Secondly, it seems that now more people are dying/disappearing on the Sahara crossing than on the sea crossing.
Thirdly, the estimate is that at the moment about 3000+ people are 'stranded' in Libya unable to cross north or return south.
Lastly, in Agadaz, a young man from Guinea sat on the floor of a derelict house with about 7/8 other subsaharan africans. They were waiting to start the Saharan crossing. He said, It doesn't matter. We know we may not make it. They can do whatever they want (meaning I suppose governments, african and european), we will still try, there is nothing else.
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If the counties they were headed for removed the economic motivation to go these people would not be undertaking these kinds of risks.

 

[~Zao~]

...definitely a better choice then the Red Lanterns:

tulc(and less bloody)

This beats brute strength any day ... oh yah, not necessarily so. (could get messy}

 

[~Zao~]

Ok guys, please quit clogging up this thread with your snips and quips. CF is a big place go play politicos elsewhere.
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Sorry my tongue got wrapped around my eye tooth and I couldn't see what I was saying.

 

[afishamongmany]

I think it is a legitimate analogy to make the point that asking only those of us who want to extend mercy to refugees pay for their support is not reasonable. I have no kids; does that I mean I don’t need to pay taxes for schools? Of course not.

Analogy, legitimate or not, are not a solutions. I'm not sure why you think it is not reasonable. It may not be right but it's perfectly reasonable. If there was a way to harness and channel nationwide 'free-will' support so that it was effective and non-exploitative (of either migrants or host nation) then Amen!

 

[afishamongmany]

"NOW??" With the exception of the last 2 centuries, that has been a normal part of human history everywhere.

Well Dave I've read and still often read history but I'm no historian, so if that's how you see it, fine.
Are you saying then, It's normal. Don't let it bother you.? Or have you got some ideas?
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[afishamongmany]

It's not that nothing can be done fish....it's that no one is willing to do it.

If we stick with our Guatemala example, they've got 12 million people, mostly Catholics, and they've outlawed abortion. They've got too many people to feed, educate, and not a big enough economy to provide for them all even if it did have a decent welfare system.

So I'd suggest they outlaw Catholicism and create a strict 1 child per woman policy. They can sterilize all women with 1 or more children already....and allow cheap/free abortion for those without children now. Then we cut off all healthcare for anyone over 40.

Hopefully in a decade or two, the economy has grown enough and the population has shrunk to 4-6 million and they at least have enough food and jobs to go around. It won't be paradise by a long shot...but hopefully it's enough to keep them from migrating here.

Sound good to you?

No, but thanks at least for positing something that one could think about. Population, as in lots of individual people, is an asset, a resource. It's people that make the world go round. There is a reason why China is backing out of it's inhuman one child policy. They've realized that it's economically disastrous.
I'm thinking of get a tee shirt with this on-
It's not that nothing can be done....it's that no one is willing to do it.
too true blue!
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[afishamongmany]

This isn't my vision of sponsorship. My vision is to get them into the system of education and then employment, just like the system other Americans are in. Were you a shopkeeper in your old country? Let's help you figure out how to start a small business in the US. Were you a physician or a nurse or a midwife? Let's get you certified to practice medicine in the US. Were you a handyman or a carpenter? Let's find you construction work here. Can you cook? Let's look at the jobs in local restaurants. They're people, with their own individual skills, just like Americans are people. They may not know English, and they probably don't know American law or have American certifications, so American sponsors can help with those things. But there's no reason to envision them as permanently unemployed.

Thanks PW, glad your still around to balance out some the negativity. Of course the fact that there is lots of cruel exploitation going on under the label of 'sponsorship' doesn't preclude the use of that word for ways of getting individuals and families in receiving countries to 'adopt' and support individual migrants and migrant families.
But this is could be only a partial, temporary 'solution'. It's in 'fixing' the failing and failed states where the major solutions should be worked out and applied.
ok my last post for tonight.
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[Ana the Ist]

No, but thanks at least for positing something that one could think about. Population, as in lots of individual people, is an asset, a resource. It's people that make the world go round.

Are you familiar with Easter Island?

Most people know it for the Moa....the large oddly shaped stone heads that dot various locations of the landscape. These heads were a mystery for some time after the discovery of the island...as it was apparent that the inhabitants weren't capable of making them, let alone so many of them.

A little archeological and anthropological research figured out the mystery. The island was once home to a much larger and more sophisticated culture and a significantly larger population. There were multiple competing tribes...capable of all sorts of things the inhabitants couldn't do when the island was discovered.

To put it simply...they had more people than the island could support. Some resources were completely used up. Those who survived were comparably primitive...all because their ancestors failed to realize that there was only so much to go around.

What's the lesson here? Well, until interplanetary travel is effective enough to bring in off-Earth resources....we're effectively on an island with a limited amount of resources. You don't need to be a scientist to figure that out...but if you doubt it, just look into "water scarcity". Nearly everything that makes our modern lives possible requires resources that are limited.

If you still have your doubts...look into India's waste disposal problems. They have 2 billion people....and no waste removal infrastructure that can deal with 2 billion people. If you're thinking "So what? They can just go out into the woods to use the bathroom."....then you're thinking the same thing the Indian people think. That's the problem. 2 billion people leaving their waste in the wilderness has effectively poisoned the water supplies in many places. Their streams and rivers are overflowing with feces.

It's nice that you're optimistic about the possibility of fixing these problems without eliminating a lot of people....but you're also in denial of reality. The world's population is only growing...and resources are only getting scarcer. Unless people are willing to accept some hard truths...we're headed for disaster as a planet and species.

There is a reason why China is backing out of it's inhuman one child policy. They've realized that it's economically disastrous.

Economically disastrous? China hasn't dramatically improved economically since 1979? I've heard some call it a success...some call it a failure...but from what I've read, it resulted in China having the second lowest birth rate in the world and an estimated 400 million less people than it would have without the policy.

I tend to agree with those who think China would be a mess if it didn't institute that policy.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

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[OldWiseGuy]

Ok guys, please quit clogging up this thread with your snips and quips. CF is a big place go play politicos elsewhere.
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Sure; to the OP.

If I were king of the U.S. I would build the barrier, deport all the illegals, enforce the laws, expand and expedite the death penalty, and go from there. The other nations can deal with their own problems as they see fit.

 

[PloverWing]

Thanks PW, glad your still around to balance out some the negativity. Of course the fact that there is lots of cruel exploitation going on under the label of 'sponsorship' doesn't preclude the use of that word for ways of getting individuals and families in receiving countries to 'adopt' and support individual migrants and migrant families.
But this is could be only a partial, temporary 'solution'. It's in 'fixing' the failing and failed states where the major solutions should be worked out and applied.
ok my last post for tonight.
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I agree that sponsoring immigrants is only a partial solution. Anything is going to be a partial solution, I think. Overall, we (as humans across the globe) need to solve the economic hardship problems, and the political instability problems, and the human rights problems, and the environmental problems (drought, etc), and the problem of providing hospitality to those entering our country -- all of it.

As one possible idea for economics in the home countries: If I really had huge resources, along with business skills, I'd consider starting small businesses in one or more of the troubled countries. The business would hire locals at all levels, including management, and would pay a genuinely fair wage, with proper working conditions, and with health and retirement benefits. Job training might have to be provided, perhaps on-the-job training. Ideally, I'd eventually transfer the business completely to local ownership, after I'd made enough money to recover my initial investment. (I need to break even, so that I have the funds to start another business somewhere else.) I'd have to be careful to avoid a repeat of colonialism; perhaps it should be a joint venture with some citizens of the country the business is in, who can warn me away from cultural blunders, and who can also give me advice about trying to run a business under a politically unstable government.

Or, one idea I hear of periodically is micro-loans, small loans to one or two people (usually women) who are starting very small businesses in their villages. Now it's entirely in the hands of local people, and I'm just providing temporary funding.

As for political instability: Someone more skilled than I am will have to work on that one.

 

[afishamongmany]

So I've gone through the thread and tried to extract the real stuff from the fluff.

Desk trauma #2 – Strict enforcement in receiving countries to stop the employment of illegal labour.
Yes, with sanctions falling most heavily on the employer and for the illegal workers, humane repatriation or insertion into humane sponsorship/assimilation schemes.

Plover Wing #4, 25, 28, 89, 93, 117 – I vote this guy as chairman of the, 'Let's solve the problem committee'
a~ Trade agreements that truly do benefit all participants.
Yes, with inspection and verification and enforcement of where the 'benefits' are going and sanction clauses against all rip-offs and misappropriations.
b~ Sponsorship by individuals and groups in the receiving nation.
Yes, the role of governments in this should be to lay down framework regulation, oversight and enforcement against any sort of exploitation. The financing would all come from the sponsors.
c~ Solutions mediated through more stable third part countries to mitigate the legacy of resentment and mistrust that there often is against the old colonial, exploiter countries.
Yes, interesting one PW. Three participant solutions may well be more likely to work and to last and have a wider reach.
d~ Increasing the opportunities for education and upgrading the educational standards in sending countries by volunteer teachers and lecturers.
Yes, well worth some government funding and maybe by universities and big business also. More emphasis and encouragement should be given to teaching immediately usable stuff like environmental protection, appropriate technology, plumbing, mechanics, farming, entry level I.T., business management and so on. The academic high fliers in developing countries are usually quickly creamed off to study in the 'developed' countries and then often they 'detach' to live and work in the prosperous place.
e~ Start up and financing of small businesses in sending nations together with sustainable systems of micro-credit.
Yes, the amounts of money needed to get virtuous circles started, very small compared to the potential benefits. But competent, effective oversight is vital.

Section9+1 #6,71 – All support for illegal immigrants limited to whatever was raised from signed up, volunteer donors.
Maybe, but there would still the need and the cost of a humane way of dealing with the repatriation of those illegals who could not be supported by this means.

Inquiring mind #16 – Stop aid to failing/failed states.
I would go further. Stop all overseas aid that could not be shown to be effective in improving the lives of the overall population of that country and then redirect that aid where it really did do something to deal with deprivation and suffering.

Old Wise Guy #63,116 – Income from trade with 'rich' countries used for the general good and not just for a small elite.
Amen!
Bar the borders, deport, enforce the laws.
OWG, I wouldn't say a definitive no to any of these. Sometimes walls and fences and patrols are needed and help to ease the problem, to move it along. But they will never get rid of it. As long as people are desperate and there are no other alternatives they will try. Just like you would.
Deportation and the enforcement of laws should always be done with humanity.

I also support capital punishment (with caveats) but what's its relevancy to a solution for illegal migration??

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[Desk trauma]

Yes, with sanctions falling most heavily on the employer and for the illegal workers, humane repatriation or insertion into humane sponsorship/assimilation schemes.

I'm thinking more along the line of lifetime disqualification from entrance to the US for the illegal worker. The last thing I would support is rewarding illegal immigrants for violating the law by entering them into a path to legal residency. My ideas are centered on removing the incentives driving illegal immigration and the employment of illegal aliens.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Remember, you as Mr President or an altruistic multi billionaire have to work with the world as it is but you want to change it, you want to make it better - Or do we just want to shrug our shoulders and watch 'the game'?

MAGA doesn't stand for "Make The World Great Again".