People from Finland, Canada, the UK, France, Germany, Norway, etc...please chime in

[canukian]

If things go wrong there is no incentive to fix what is broken. The legislator or regulators just subsidize the mistakes with more of are hard earned tax money!~
There is no accountability, so why would I want to put more of my money in a never ending pit.

socialized health care is a money pit.

the more money the nanny state throws at it, the more ways are invented to demand more.

 

[allhart]

socialized health care is a money pit.

the more money the nanny state throws at it, the more ways are invented to demand more.

I don't understand why they can't see this, as it really is?

 

[canukian]

What irks me - as a taxpayer - is how other people address the issue of taxes. I simply don't see it as "I'm paying X amount...I don't want to pay any more"...which is apparently how other people in my party see it.

To me - it's an issue of priorities - and where my tax dollars are spent.

Does the idea that my tax dollars are going to pay for (ideally...although it doesn't exactly work out that way) the military, or the roads, etc...bother me? Absolutely not. Not in the slightest. On the same token - if someone said to me "Your tax dollars will be going to ensure that Susie down the street and her children can have access to decent medical care" - I would not have any problems with that either.

I do not see my ability to pay for private insurance (and the exhorbitant prices of it relative to other countries) as being some sort of medal on my chest of responsibility. I do not see her inability to pay those same prices as being some sort of testimony of her being a loser - nor do I desire to point a finger at her and say "That's what you get for the choices you've made".

I guess that's where we differ.

I have no loyalty to Humana or Aetna, nor Blue Cross, nor any of the other charlatains that run our insurance companies. In fact - I detest insurance companies. The simple fact of the matter is that they're simply in the business of trying to provide the least amount of service legally possible without becoming criminally liable. I've watched them too often deny legitimate claims, try to find loopholes in coverage that they sold in the first place, etc...to have any loyalty to them. I find it distasteful that healthcare is left in the hands of people that have a vested interest in the denial of claims - and base rewards to their agents on how successful they are in denying claims. When the health of the person is at stake - it's despicable.

I remember when my mom passed away from cancer. My mom and dad had great coverage. My father was a successful attorney - and they certainly did not do without. They tried their best to renig on coverage - and it was only through her dogged pursuit of them (and my father's knowledge of the law) that they acquiesced and gave her decent care at the end (although funny enough, most of the hospice care was taken care of by the state).

I also remember another friend of mine whose parents weren't as well off - that also had cancer. Her coverage wasn't nearly as good - and I remember how she was forced to make due. I remember the underlying feeling that she and her family had - which was that they deserved sub standard care and corner cutting - lack of care - etc - simply because they "didn't deserve it" - because the father was blue collar.

So yeah - I have no love for insurance companies. I don't think they do a good job. I think they're fundamentally corrupt - and I think that they utilize the dysfunction of our medical system (i.e., how private and public interact to act as artificial price supports) to their advantage - at our loss. Personally, I wouldn't mind a single payer system, just to drive those people out of business. IMHO - all things considered - they deserve it.

That's how I feel as a person who is a taxpayer - and as a person who pays for private medical insurance.

Does the idea of taxes bother me?

If it's going to ensure that Suzy and her kids down the street (or people like my friend's mom) don't face the kinds of things they did - or to be left with the feeling that they simply don't "deserve" quality care - then no. I don't mind that a bit.

It certainly irks me a lot less than the idea of my tax dollars going to subsidize some ill conceived folly in Iraq.

i dont like the idea of having to have insurance either. i would rather see payment be between the doctor and the patient.

 

[canukian]

Of course.

And I am saying that I, as the individual, want to empower the government, with my consent, to tax my fellow citizens for the sake of universal healthcare. I am saying that I want to empower (have Government derive it's power from my will) to do so - because I believe it to be a necessity.

How is that in any way incompatible with the declaration of independence? lol

The government derives it's power from me, and the majority, to do as we want it to.

so then how would you feel about a world government? if there were such a thing there is no doubt that the bulk of the population of the world would vote to tax you to the hilt to make things fair.

this is the result of your own logic.

 

[canukian]

I don't understand why they can't see this, as it really is?

the devil is at work imo. gods wrath is all but iminent. there are very few who have investments in lies who will turn to the truth.

 

[allhart]

the devil is at work imo. gods wrath is all but iminent. there are very few who have investments in lies who will turn to the truth.

agreed, good point!

 

[DZoolander]

the devil is at work imo. gods wrath is all but iminent. there are very few who have investments in lies who will turn to the truth.

lol - so God's gonna sit on his laurels through the Iraq and everything involved in that fiasco (including the taking of my money for an endeavor I did not support - since that seems to be what's most important to everyone) - but He's gonna reach out with His righteous fury and burn this place to the ground because we're trying to get everyone adequate healthcare?

Now there's a point of view if I've ever heard one! hahaha

 

[Bombila]

Canukian must have been a member of the almost forgotten "Refooooooorm Party"

I just dropped in to comment that canukian's views are in the minority among Canadians. Our health care system certainly has problems, but the vast majority of Canadians would never give it up and just want the problems fixed.

We feel very free. There's very little I can't do that an American can - I can't even think of one, except maybe own a handgun and carry it around in my purse. I can own other guns if I want. Most people do.

 

[Garyzenuf]

socialized health care is a money pit.

the more money the nanny state throws at it, the more ways are invented to demand more.

I don't understand why they can't see this, as it really is?

Oh...I can clear this up, the reason we can't see it is because it's not true.

You must be wearing special 'Neo-con, greedy, fear-mongering distortionist' glasses to see it.

*

 

[paperkate]

Do you view yourselves as lacking freedom? Do you believe that you are the victims of an oppressive and tyrannical government? Do you feel that your government is taking away your rights, and that you are slaves to their whims? Do you envy us Americans and our freedoms? Do you envy our medical system, and do you wish you could exchange yours for ours?

This has been an interesting thread, although it does seem to have wandered off-topic.

I am another American living in the UK (now with dual citizenship), and have been here for 10 years. As much as I enjoy visiting the States, I will never live there again.

In no way do I feel my rights are infringed here - in fact, the opposite is true. People here are allowed to live their lives as they wish, provided they do no harm to anyone else. Gay marriage is a complete non-issue here, and I am proud to live in a free country where EVERYONE is free to marry the person they love.

My quality of life here far exceeds what I had in the States. I get 26 days of annual leave (holiday time) from my employer, with up to an additional 12 days of flexi leave on top of that. I can take a full year of maternity leave and an additional 5 years of unpaid career break to raise my family, and still have a job to go back to. My husband is entitled to paternity leave to help with the baby.

Shall I say a little something about the NHS? I think it is absolutely wonderful, and the British people should be damn proud of it. It isn't perfect, and does suffer from its problems, but even still, healthcare tops my list of reasons we will not move back to the States - the US system is an embarrassment. Here, I can see my GP within two days of calling to make an appointment, or on the same day if it's an emergency. I can also be seen very quickly at my local A&E (Emergency Room), or my nearest drop-in minor injuries unit. I don't fill in one piece of paperwork when I get there, and I don't pay a penny. I get free contraception. I pay only a very minimal fee for other prescriptions (what is it now in Scotland? £6?), no matter what the medication. Many prescriptions are free for people who suffer some chronic conditions like diabetes.

Maternity care is very good, The NHS pays for a health visitor to visit you in your home regularly after the birth to help with things like nursing, cleaning, general care, etc. Americans I know who have had children in both places claim the care they received on the NHS was every bit as good, if not better, than what they received in the States.

I underwent a surgical procedure within 3 weeks of moving here in a clean and modern hospital, and received absolutely brilliant after-care...and did not pay a penny. I am also being treated by a specialist biomechanics doctor for problems relating to my flat feet, and have just been recommended for surgery. I shouldn't have to wait more than 6 weeks. If it was an emergency, I would be seen much sooner. Oh, and while I'm recovering, I can expect up to 6 months of fully paid sick leave from my employer.

The best thing about the NHS? I know that no matter what happens, it is there for life. It is not tied to my employment, and I will never be denied coverage for a pre-existing condition. Of course we pay for it - those who are able to work pay for it out of their monthly pay check. But overall, my tax burden is almost the same as what it was in the States, and I get so much more for it. I am proud to pay into the system while I can, because I know there will come a time when I will be too sick or old to work, and I will still be treated - no matter what.

Best of all, I know that I live in a free, humane society that does a pretty good job of looking after its poor, sick, and vulnerable.

 

[DZoolander]

Thank you

 

[All Englands Skies]

Id say we're not some fascist police state at all. thats over the top.

however we do seem to not be able to do things that USA can do, i mean films like Team America if made in UK wouldnt have ever been allowed and if someone did manage to make it here, it would be banned for "inciditing" or something.

Of course if your not in one of the "pet groups", anyone can make fun with impunity, I was watching a Comedians last night and like every other "Comedian", its an hour of offensive, Christian bashing jokes and then one half-baked, lukewarm joke about Muslims, which wasnt even offensive.

its not the joking itself that bothers me, its the fact its okay to do it to us but not anyone else.

 

[SallyNow]

Do you view yourselves as lacking freedom?

Nope! I can say what I want, as long as I'm not threatening people, which is also illegal in the USA. I can own a gun if I want. I can go anywhere I please. I do anything I want as long as it doesn't infringe on other's freedom to do whatever they want!

Do you believe that you are the victims of an oppressive and tyrannical government?

Nope! They can a bit silly at times, but oppressive? Tyrannical? Ha! Not in the least.

Do you feel that your government is taking away your rights, and that you are slaves to their whims?

No. Here in Canada was a "charter of rights" and we have laws and we have elections. If we don't like what's going on, we protest. If we really don't like what's going on, we get a new election. We have more parties to choose from, too, and they all have to listen or otherwise WHAM they can be out.

Do you envy us Americans and our freedoms?

I envy the American confidence, the ability to say whatever they want without apologising. But that's not a freedom, just an attitude. Canada believes in innocent until proven guilty. I can travel legally to Cuba, BTW.

Do you envy our medical system, and do you wish you could exchange yours for ours?

Nope! I wouldn't give up my full chose of doctors and my access to all treatments even if I'm not a billionare. Sorry.

 

[allhart]

Liberty is responsibility's assumed. The Federal Gov. can't do anything if they don't take it from you. Then, they must control it!
So, as we see a baby; they have no liberty. At first the baby is controlled by the parents. As they assume responsibility's they gain freedom and independence. Their Liberty!

And as for the control.... A man sees a bunch of wild pigs roaming on his property and he wants them for himself. But he can't control them, so he puts some food out and they come eat. Overtime they learn to rely on the farmers' food instead foraging for themselves. They become fat and sassy. Then the farmer puts up a post; they don't pay no mind to it. And he puts up two more, then another. They don't like it, but oh well. He puts up fencing all around, only leaving a small opening for them to get in and out of. Then the gate is slammed shut!!!!!! (show me the bacon) Then the Federal Gov. has control of your lives after putting posts up all around your lives taking what liberty's you once had and controlling them all. Docile sheep herded along lines, lost in control of responsibility's / LIBERTY!

Those of you that always have had freedom, respectively want everything handed to you on a silver platter and assume no responsibility for your lives. You don't know what to hold on to. Where is your self respect? Your character lacks perseverance that comes from within oneself.

The American people are Governed by laws of character, a moral code of sorts (from within, it used to be self evident). When you view what happens to a criminal that has broken such laws, you can then see the Liberty's that are taken from you. Those people can't even turn out the lights......every aspect of their lives is controlled like health, wealth, food etc. The Federal Gov. grows when there is corruption and a lack of character. Humans are assuming less responsibility's for their very lives. We are becoming a welfare State / Nation!!

 

[TemperateSeaIsland]

I love living where I live and wouldnt have it any other way.

 

[DZoolander]

Humans are assuming less responsibility's for their very lives. We are becoming a welfare State / Nation!!

Once again, I do not believe that saying there a certain things that are in the national interest, such as national defense, and the health of it's constituents, makes for a welfare state.

As I said before...and I probably shouldn't have engaged (although it's difficult sometimes not to engage) - the point of this thread is not for Americans to sit back and espouse how others might "choke on the sweet air of freedom" that we "enjoy" - but rather to ask people from foreign countries that have Nationalized health insurance if they like their systems - and if America's portrayals of their systems are accurate.

Would they swap their systems for ours, if they could?

If it keeps devolving into more ideological stuff about whether or not they *should* be a "nanny state" - I'll have the mods start cleaning it up.

 

[jgarden]

Many Americans have a "shallow" view of freedom - as if they had somehow invented it and nobody else beyond their borders was capable of experiencing it.

 

[rambot]

Absolutely and overwhelmingly no.

There is a great deal of freedom here in Canada. In my community there are thousands of individuals and agencies willing to help those who need it and I gratefully give my tax dollars to that.

In the end, the day to day existence of Canadians and Americans, at least in terms of their freedoms, are probably fairly equal. It's more a broader unjustifiable position that US police are more heavy handed (or US citizens are more prone to criminal behaviour) even though there are far higher incarceration rates in Canada and the US despite the fact that, I'd wager, most criminals in those prisons are breaking very similar laws.

File:Incarceration rates worldwide.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Panzerkamfwagen]

Many Americans have a "shallow" view of freedom - as if they had somehow invented it and nobody else beyond their borders was capable of experiencing it.

Well gee, it's not as though the US Constitution is the oldest federal constitution in existence or anything.

 

[lemmings]

Well gee, it's not as though the US Constitution is the oldest federal constitution in existence or anything.

The English did have this thing called the Magna Carta or the "Great Charter of Freedoms" about 560 years before Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence.