• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.

Penance and/or Temporal Consequences of Sin

Discussion in 'Theologia Crucis - Lutherans' started by ViaCrucis, Jul 2, 2017.

  1. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

    +17,512
    United States
    Lutheran
    In Relationship
    US-Others
    So I am aware that penance, as understood by Rome, is rejected in our churches; due to the error in believing that penitential works carry salvific merit. Though I am aware that in the Eastern Churches Confession and Absolution also tends to carry recommend for acts of healing, such as if I do something against my neighbor, I am to go and make amends to my neighbor.

    Something I am unaware of is how this "works" in the Lutheran tradition. Namely, I would think we would probably agree that if I steal something, and then confess this sin either as part of the public confession of the Church or privately to my pastor it is not true contrition unless I return the stolen object, make amends with the one I stole from, etc. Specifically, when it comes to repentance and contrition, confession and absolution, what is the Lutheran position on addressing what we might call the temporal consequences of sin, and/or making amends with my neighbor when my sin has violated them? Further, where might I find this in the BoC for my own edification on the subject, assuming it is addressed?

    -CryptoLutheran
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. AMM

    AMM A Beggar Supporter

    +1,085
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    In Relationship
    I've got just the thing for you! I was listening to the BoC on audiobook the other day (it's available for free on LibriVox! Definitely check it out), and I came across these parts.

    (Emphasis mine)

    That whole article, as well as the following (Ap XIIb (VI): Of Confession and Satisfaction), will probably be helpful for you. There are other sections such as XIIa 56-58 or XIIb 21-26 that address punishments as well. Essentially, we don't object to the idea of temporal punishments, teaching good works (3rd use of the law), etc. We do object to the idea that those remit sin or guilt, however.

    Is that what you're looking for?
     
  3. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

    +17,512
    United States
    Lutheran
    In Relationship
    US-Others
    Very helpful, thank you!

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  4. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +11,137
    United States
    Other Religion
    Legal Union (Other)
    US-Democrat
    It's letting the camel's nose into the tent. You might encourage somebody to return stolen goods, if it is wise to do so, but I don't think it's good to imply that forgiveness is conditioned on fruits of repentance. I've been to those types of churches and I don't care for it in my religion.

    I can think of alot of reasons why making that sort of demand would not be wise, as well. For one thing, prison sentences in our current culture are unlikely to be rehabilitative and there is a great deal of injustice in the legal system. So it's placing an additional burden on someone who could have simply refrained from privately hearing absolution and still had complete confidence in their justification by faith. That actually works against the whole purpose of having private confession, as a result.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2017
  5. Daniel9v9

    Daniel9v9

    879
    +801
    Japan
    Lutheran
    Married
    May or may not be relevant to what you're asking, but I think we are certainly taught to make amends in the the Sermon on the Mount - particularly Matthew 5:23-26 (First and Third use of the Law is clear)
    Then there's also Zacchaeus in Luke 19:8-9

    I know we don't offer literal sacrifices or preform Romish Penance, but we shouldn't be allergic to making amends or any good works; we are still to do good works, even though our salvation doesn't depend on it. Ephesians 2:10 really sums it up.

    At least that's my 2 cents.
     
  6. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

    +17,512
    United States
    Lutheran
    In Relationship
    US-Others
    That passage was certainly on my mind in all this. It's largely why I mentioned that true contrition seems like it would be accompanied by seeking to make amends; though we need to be careful not to treat this good work as meritorious or conditional of God's forgiveness. On the one hand if I hurt my neighbor and grieve over it, but ignore my neighbor then I'm adding sin to sin; on the other hand we need to always keep in mind that the mercy and forgiveness we have from God isn't dependent on us and what we do, but on what Christ has done for us--there is forgiveness because we are forgiven in and by Christ's work done on our behalf. In response to this forgiveness, in faith and love, go to my neighbor to mend that relationship.

    This therefore fitting into the dichotomous framework of Coram Deo and Coram Hominibus; that before God I am forgiven for Christ's; and in relation to my neighbor the Law rules so that I go and love my neighbor for my neighbor's sake. And here I feel reminded of Luther's statement,

    "Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever."

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  7. Daniel9v9

    Daniel9v9

    879
    +801
    Japan
    Lutheran
    Married
    Yep. That's what I'm saying with Ephesians 2:10
     
Loading...