'Penal Substitution', anyone?

[Clare73]

My point is that many Christians "do" deny the Scriptures because of proof texting. Look at Clare's posts.
I've presented numerous passages of Scripture that plainly refute what she claims yet
she insists on Proof Texting a few passage from which she "infers" that man has an immortal spirit. We can find the same thing in the OSAS threads, the Baptism threads, and on and on.

So when you present texts in refutation, it's not "proof texting."

And texts which specifically state human spirits of deceased persons are alive (Heb 12:24; Lk 8:55) are just "inferences."

That's really lame, Butch.

And still not addressing the texts presented [post=62792540]here[/post]. . .

Q.E.D.

 

[Clare73]

There's nothing there to address. Which text says that man has an immortal spirit?

The same texts that state spirits of deceased humans are alive and did not die when their bodies died.

Immortal simply means "deathless."
Human spirits are deathless, they do not die.
That is immortal.

Point one out and I'll address it.

[post=62792540]These[/post] have been presented numerous times, and still are not addressed. . .

Q.E.D.

 

[Butch5]

The same texts that state spirits of deceased humans are alive and did not die when their bodies died.

Immortal simply means "deathless."
Human spirits are deathless, they do not die.
That is immortal.


[post=62792540]These[/post] have been presented numerous times, and still are not addressed. . .

It's interesting that you only quote parts of what I say. Show me which passage says that man has an immortal spirit and I will address it. There is no need for me to refute your inference, especially when you have not established your premise from Scripture. Additionally, I've presented plenty of evidence that clearly shows man doesn't have an immortal spirit.

If you want to be an apologist for Plato that is your prerogative, however, Plato is not Scripture.

 

[Butch5]

So when you present texts in refutation, it's not "proof texting."

And texts which specifically state human spirits of deceased persons are alive (Heb 12:24; Lk 8:55) are just "inferences."

That's really lame, Butch.

And still not addressing the texts presented [post=62792540]here[/post]. . .

The texts I presented are not inferences, they are clear statements. It seems the problem is that your not taking into account that word spirit doesn't necessarily mean a disembodied existence. The word means breath. So, when you see a passage that says her spirit returned to her, it can simply be interpreted, her breath returned to her, meaning she was alive again. There is no need to understand that a disembodied spirit came to dwell in her again. That is simply an inference , but "NOT" a necessary inference.

 

[Butch5]

Check out kione Greek, no longer used after ~300 A.D.

It was a long time before Greek scholars came into knowledge of it again.

Therein was the problem of translation.

Still not addressing the text of Ro 3:25-26. . .

Any excuse is a good, right?

I addressed Romans 3, simply change propitiation to Mercy seat and you have the answer.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

The same texts that state spirits of deceased humans are alive and did not die when their bodies died.

Immortal simply means "deathless."
Human spirits are deathless, they do not die.
That is immortal.

He's nitpicking, he believes humans have a soul, course the immortality or lack thereof purely depends on God. He might also nitpick the wording because technically our souls have a beginning in time, so technically they're not "eternal" in that sense, but then the soul saved by Christ, has been granted eternal life (and that's using biblical terminology), that is from that point in time to eternity. And for those condemned souls reaping eternal death...

Mat 10:28 “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (NKJV)

 

[Clare73]

It's interesting that you only quote parts of what I say.
Show me which passage says that man has an immortal spirit

What part of the following do you not understand?

The same texts that state spirits of deceased humans are alive and did not die when their bodies died.

Immortal simply means "deathless."
Human spirits are deathless, they do not die.
That is immortal.

and I will address it.

Heard that before.

They are presented here, and still not addressed. . .

Q.E.D.

 

[Clare73]

He's nitpicking, he believes humans have a soul,

Nitpicking is a diversionary tactic because you can't support your view Biblically.

Of course the immortality or lack thereof purely depends on God. He might also nitpick the wording because technically our souls have a beginning in time, so technically they're not "eternal" in that sense, but then the soul saved by Christ, has been granted eternal life (and that's using biblical terminology), that is from that point in time to eternity. And for those condemned souls reaping eternal death...

Words have meaning.

The word is "immortal," which means "deathless, does not die."

The word is not "eternal," it is not "non-destructible," nor is it "eternal life," none of which mean "immortal."

Mat 10:28

“And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear
Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (NKJV)

The Greek word apollumi is used here, and means "kill, waste, or loss of well-being."
It does not mean annihilation, or loss of being.

Apollumi is also translated "destruction, perish, lost, perdition and damnation,"
(Mt 7:13; Lk 13:3; Ro 9:22; Jn 17:12; 2Pe 2:3).

The Greek word olethros , which means "to slay or to kill" (1Co 5:5, 10:10; 1Th 5:3; Heb 11:28)
is also used in the same sense.

And it likewise does not mean annihilation, or loss of being.

The NT does not present the human spirit as being annihilated or losing its being/existence.
It does present it as destroyed in the sense of being ruined, or losing its well-being in eternal damnation.
But it does not lose its existence.

The NT does present the human spirit as living after its body has died, which means it is immortal.

 

[Butch5]

What part of the following do you not understand?

The same texts that state spirits of deceased humans are alive and did not die when their bodies died.

Wow, that's not a contradiction is it? Deceased humans are alive?

Show me one of those texts and I'll address it.

Immortal simply means "deathless."
Human spirits are deathless, they do not die.
That is immortal.


Heard that before.

They are presented here, and still not addressed. . .

This is simply your opinion, you've yet to prove it. As we've seen it can't proven because it's foreign to Scripture.

 

[Butch5]

He's nitpicking, he believes humans have a soul, course the immortality or lack thereof purely depends on God. He might also nitpick the wording because technically our souls have a beginning in time, so technically they're not "eternal" in that sense, but then the soul saved by Christ, has been granted eternal life (and that's using biblical terminology), that is from that point in time to eternity. And for those condemned souls reaping eternal death...

Mat 10:28 “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (NKJV)

Hi AW,

I never denied that humans has a soul. The soul is the life. I pointed out the creation account, God formed the body from the dust and breathed His spirit/breath into that body and Adam became a living soul. Soul in the Scriptures denote life. It is a disembodied spirit that I have denied. The Scriptures say when a man dies he is dead.

There is no immortal soul or spirit in a man. Even the one who has eternal life only has it because God sustains it. For one to have eternal life one must have access to the Tree of Life. Adam was banned from the Tree of Life so that he wouldn't live eternally is sin.

The believer will not die, however, the unbeliever will. The unbeliever will be cast into the Lake of Fire which is the second death. The wicked will not live forever, they are not immortal.

Clare says that humans have an immortal spirit. If that is the case then unbelievers and wicked men receive the gift of God. Paul said the gift of God is eternal life. If the wicked are immortal then they receive the gift of God.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Hi AW,

I never denied that humans has a soul. The soul is the life. I pointed out the creation account, God formed the body from the dust and breathed His spirit/breath into that body and Adam became a living soul. Soul in the Scriptures denote life. It is a disembodied spirit that I have denied. The Scriptures say when a man dies he is dead.

There is no immortal soul or spirit in a man. Even the one who has eternal life only has it because God sustains it. For one to have eternal life one must have access to the Tree of Life. Adam was banned from the Tree of Life so that he wouldn't live eternally is sin.

The believer will not die, however, the unbeliever will. The unbeliever will be cast into the Lake of Fire which is the second death. The wicked will not live forever, they are not immortal.

Clare says that humans have an immortal spirit. If that is the case then unbelievers and wicked men receive the gift of God. Paul said the gift of God is eternal life. If the wicked are immortal then they receive the gift of God.

IOW, you're an Annihilationist concerning the unbeliever. Well, I'll excercise some Christian liberty and say that I've known at least one brilliant Calvinist who is an annihilationist (but also a theistic evolutionist which I highly disagree with). Years ago I listened to him debate another Christian, and as far as I was concerned he won the debate. Did it change my view? Not entirely, but I am soft on the issue, and honestly seems to be Scripture (and reasoning) to support both views. I couldn't give a summation of who what and where supported or didn't support throughout Church history. Too many will argue guilt by association on this one. I've read and gone through the various interpretation of what hell will be, etc. I suppose I am somewhat open minded on the annihilation debate, and maybe something not firmly settled for me in this lifetime.

 

[cygnusx1]

Was that Stott or Wenham bro ^ ?

 

[Clare73]

The texts I presented are not inferences, they are clear statements. It seems the problem is that your not taking into account that word spirit doesn't necessarily mean a disembodied existence. The word means breath. So, when you see a passage that says her spirit returned to her, it can simply be interpreted, her breath returned to her, meaning she was alive again. There is no need to understand that a disembodied spirit came to dwell in her again. That is simply an inference , but "NOT" a necessary inference.

That's one down, and five to go (#1, 3, 4, 5, 6) [post=62792540]here[/post].

 

[Clare73]

Any excuse is a good, right?

I addressed Romans 3, simply change propitiation to Mercy seat and you have the answer.

So then, we are in agreement that Ro 3:25-26 presents subsitutional penal atonement [post=62791677]here[/post].

Q.E.D.

 

[Clare73]

It's interesting that you only quote parts of what I say.
Show me which passage says that man has an immortal spirit

What part of the following do you not understand?

The same texts that state spirits of deceased humans are alive and did not die when their bodies died.

Immortal simply means "deathless."
Human spirits are deathless, they do not die.
That is immortal.

-----

and I will address it.

Heard that before.

They are presented here, and still not addressed. . .

This is simply your opinion, you've yet to prove it.

Which is simply your opinion, with no standing, because you have not addressed,
because you cannot address with a logically sensible and Biblical explanation,
the texts [post=62790320]here[/post] (#1, 2, 3, 5, 6, as well as Col, Eph, Jn and 1Jn). . .

Q.E.D.

 

[Clare73]

Hi AW,

I just addressed this with Clare.

Which response I feel he has also already seen. . .

4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. (Psa 90:4 KJV)

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (2Pe 3:8 KJV)

Sorry about your perception and understanding of Scripture.

Note the grammatical usage of "as."

Those Scriptures are statements of timelessness, not statements giving the nature of time in timelessness.
They are showing there is no comparison between time and timelessness.

The Father does not live in time.
Therefore, there is no measurement into days or years of the timelessness in which he dwells.
That is the purport of those texts.

However, creation took place in time.
The creation account is given in the terms of earthly time, six days.

Not to mention your texts have nothing to do with the creation account.

There is no basis for the fanciful notion that "day" in Ge 2:17 is actually 1,000 years.
Timelessness cannot be stated in terms of time.

If you knew church history you would see the basis for it.

Church history does not constitute a valid Biblical basis.

 

[Clare73]

You might want to study this topic rather than proof texting it.

You might want to address the texts rather than playing distraction by diversion.

Sorry about your perception and understanding of Scripture.
For you misunderstand spiritual death.

It is loss of Holy Spirit life, loss of eternal life.

It is not death of one's spirit.

Adam and Eve were the only ones to experience spiritual death, loss of Holy Spirit life, loss of eternal life.

Everyone else is now born without Holy Spirit life, without eternal life, in spiritual death.

But their human spirits are not dead, they just do not possess Holy Spirit life, eternal life.

There is no such thing as spiritual death in the Scriptures

Sorry about your perception and understanding of Scripture.

Col 2:13 - "When you were dead in your sins. . .God made you alive with Christ."

Eph 2:1,3 - "You were dead in your transgressions and sins. . .by nature objects of wrath."

Jn 5:24 - "Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. . .he has crossed over from death to life."

1Jn 3:14 - "We know we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. . .no murderer has eternal life in him."

So what was dead? . . .it wasn't their bodies.
From what death did they pass?

Humans don't have spirits, other than the breath of life from God.

You keep saying that in the face of what the NT reveals, and still do not address the texts:

1) Mt 22:31-32 - "In the account of the bush (Lk 20:37-38), have you not read what God said to you, 'I am (present tense) the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Two hundred years after the death of the patriarchs, God declared he is (present tense) the God of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Ex 3:6). Since he is (present tense) the God only of the living, and not the God of the dead, what part of the patriarchs are still living?

2) Lk 16:22-26 - "The time came when the beggar man died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. . .he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to. . .cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
But Abraham replied. . .'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Jesus presented the rich man in hell, with he and Abraham conversing with one another after their deaths.
He presented their spirits as conversing with one another because their spirits are immortal.

3) Heb 12:18, 22-24 - "You have not come to a mountain that is burning with fire. . .You have come to Mount Zion. . .You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant. . ."

The NT reveals that the spirits of former righteous believers (e.g., Abel and Noah, vv.4, 7) are immortal and are waiting for the resurrection.

Did Jesus' human spirit die before he rose from the dead?

4) Lk 8:53-55 - "They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. But he took her by the hand and said, 'My child, get up!' Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up."

This text speaks for itself. Her spirit did not die when her body died.

5) Lk 8:51 - "If anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

Well, his body will be seeing death, so what part of him will never see death?

6) Php 1:23 - "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ which is better by far, but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

The NT plainly states that when believers die, they are with Christ, apart from their body.

So what part of them is with Christ, apart from their body?

7) 1Ti 1:17 - "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only [wise] God."

First of all, "wise" is not in the Greek text. It reads, "the only God."

God is
eternal (King of the ages),
immortal,
invisible,
the only God.

Secondly, the Greek word translated "immortal" here is aphthartos, which means "incorruptible."

God is physically "incorruptible" because he has no body which, therefore, makes him immortal.
God is also a morally "incorruptible" spirit, because he is God.
God is both a physically and morally incorruptible (aphthartos) spirit.

8) 1Ti 6:16 - "God. . .who alone is immortal."

The text is stating that God alone is the incorruptible (1Ti 1:17) immortal being.

How do we know that?
Because God is the author of Scripture (2Ti 3:16,) and God does not contradict himself.

God is not the only immortal being, because angels are immortal, and demons are immortal.

So the text means something else.

The same kind of phraseology is seen in the same epistle at 1:17, presented above.
So in the light of 1Ti 1:17, where incorruptible has been translated immortal, we see what is meant in 6:16.
God is the only morally incorruptible/immortal being.

Thus 1Ti 6:16 does not disagree with other Scripture which reveals angels and demons are immortal.
But even though the angels are immortal, they could be, and were, corrupted in the heavenly rebellion.

The NT reveals that all spirits are immortal. . .God, angels, demons and human spirits
(Php 1:23; Heb 12:18, 22-24; Mt 22:31-32; Lk 16:22-26).

But God is the only incorruptible/immortal spirit.

Q.E.D.

 

[Clare73]

The texts I presented are not inferences, they are clear statements. It seems the problem is that your not taking into account that word spirit doesn't necessarily mean a disembodied existence. The word means breath.

Okay, let's "study the topic."

The Greek word for "spirit" is pneuma, which means "breath, wind." (Jn 3:8)

In the Greek OT, it is used of the breath of God (Ge 2:7).

In the OT, God's Word and God's Spirit are parallel figures.
God's Word is his almighty speech, and God's Spirit is his almighty breath.
Both connote God's power in action, and both appear together in creation.

"The Spirit of God (breath) moved upon the face of the waters. And God said. . .and there was" (Ge 1:2).

"By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath (Spirit) of his mouth" (Ps 33:6).

"The LORD formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath (Spirit) of life, and the man became a living soul (Gr: psuche) (Ge 2:7)"

The soul ([La: anima) is the animating principle of life;
(Gr: psuche) is the breath, the breath of life, the spirit breathed into man by God.

The only Scriptural usages of "soul" and "spirit," reveal that they are alike in their nature and in their activity.
Both are the make-up of man, and both are the location of the emotions
(Ps 35:9; Mt 6:25; 26:38; Lk 1:47; Jn 13:21; 1Co 7:34; Jas 2:26).

In their only Scriptural usage,
the relationship between spirit and soul shows that body (soma) and spirit (pneuma) may be separated, but
spirit (pneuma) and soul (psuche) can only be distinguished one from the other, they cannot be separated.

So a "study of the topic" shows that:
the spirit is the life principle bestowed on man by God,
the soul is the resulting life constituted in the individual, and
the body is the material organism animated by soul (psuche) and spirit (pneuma).

In the light of its Biblical usage, a "living soul" means a living being, composed of body and soul/spirit,
whose soul/spirit is separated from its body at the death of the body, as seen in [post=62790320]these[/post] Scriptures.

So, when you see a passage that says
her spirit returned to her, it can simply be interpreted, her breath returned to her,

However, in the light of their Scriptural usage, the spirit (pneuma, breath) and soul (psuche) cannot be separated, so that what is separated from the body at its death is not just its breath, but is both its animating life principle (spirit, pneuma) and life itself (soul, psuche).

The only Biblical usage of spirit and soul do not allow that the spirit of man is only the breath of man.
The spirit of man is the life principle of man which, with his soul, is separated from his body at the death of his body.

And that is what is seen in the texts presented [post=62790320]here[/post], which remain unaddressed. . .

meaning she was alive again. There is no need to understand that a disembodied spirit came to dwell in her again. That is simply an inference , but "NOT" a necessary inference.

Actually, a "study of the topic" reveals that it is not an inference but, based on the only Biblical usage of "spirit" and "soul," it IS the necessary meaning.

Q.E.D.

 

[Butch5]

Okay, let's "study the topic."

The Greek word for "spirit" is pneuma, which means "breath, wind." (Jn 3:8)

In the Greek OT, it is used of the breath of God (Ge 2:7).

In the OT, God's Word and God's Spirit are parallel figures.
God's Word is his almighty speech, and God's Spirit is his almighty breath.
Both connote God's power in action, and both appear together in creation.

"The Spirit of God (breath) moved upon the face of the waters. And God said. . .and there was" (Ge 1:2).

"By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath (Spirit) of his mouth" (Ps 33:6).

"The LORD formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath (Spirit) of life, and the man became a living soul (Gr: psuche) (Ge 2:7)"

The soul ([La: anima) is the animating principle of life;
(Gr: psuche) is the breath, the breath of life, the spirit breathed into man by God.

The only Scriptural usages of "soul" and "spirit," reveal that they are alike in their nature and in their activity.
Man is composed of both, and the emotions are located in both
(Ps 35:9; Mt 6:25; 26:38; Lk 1:47; Jn 13:21; 1Co 7:34; Jas 2:26).

In their only Scriptural usage,
the relationship between spirit and soul shows that body (soma) and spirit (pneuma) may be separated, but
spirit (pneuma) and soul (psuche) can only be distinguished one from the other, they cannot be separated.

So a "study of the topic" shows that:
the spirit is the life principle bestowed on man by God,
the soul is the resulting life constituted in the individual, and
the body is the material organism animated by soul (psuche) and spirit (pneuma).

In light of that, a "living soul" is really a living being composed of body and soul.


However, in the light of their Scriptural usage, the spirit (pneuma, breath) and soul (psuche) cannot be separated, so that what is separated from the body at its death is both its animating life principle (spirit, pneuma) and life itself (soul, psuche).

The only Biblical usage of spirit and soul do not allow that the spirit of man is only the breath of man.
The spirit of man is the life principle of man which, with his soul, is separated from his body at the death of his body.

And that is what is seen in the texts presented [post=62790320]here[/post].


Actually, a "study of the topic" reveals that it is not an inference but, based on the only Biblical usage of "spirit" and "soul," it IS the necessary meaning.

Not sure how you determined that soul and spirit cannot be separated when Scripture expressly states that when man dies his body returns to dust and the spirit returns to God. They are the two components. soul is not a component of man. Soul is the product of the body and God's breath. Those two came together to form a living soul. If you take notice to Solomon's words you'll notice he says nothing about the soul. He said, the body returns to the dust and the spirit returns to God. He says nothing of a soul. That's probably because when the body and the spirit separate there no long is a soul.

 

[Clare73]

Not sure how you determined that soul and spirit cannot be separated when
Scripture expressly states that when man dies his body returns to dust and the spirit returns to God.

So, if man's spirit returns to God, why do you maintain that man's spirit,
which Scripture presents as his life principle and location of his emotions,
is not immortal or deathless, but dies?

They are the two components. soul is not a component of man. Soul is the product of the body and God's breath. Those two came together to form a living soul. If you take notice to Solomon's words you'll notice
he says nothing about the soul.

You should understand your theology in the light of the words of Jesus in Mt 6:25, 10:28, 26:38; Lk 12:20.

You can review the "study of the topic" [post=62798383]here[/post] for the answer to your question.
Hint: in their scriptural usage, "soul" and "spirit" are alike in their nature and activities,
which is why Heb 4:12 mirrors the difficulty in distinguishing one from the other.

He said, the body returns to the dust and the spirit returns to God. He says nothing of a soul.
That's probably because when the body and the spirit separate there no long is a soul.

No, it's because he did not have the benefit of Jesus' usage of "soul" and "spirit" to enlighten him, as we have.