'Penal Substitution', anyone?

[Clare73]

Sorry about your perception and understanding of Scripture.
For you misunderstand spiritual death.

It is loss of Holy Spirit life, loss of eternal life.

It is not death of one's spirit.

Adam and Eve were the only ones to experience spiritual death, loss of Holy Spirit life, loss of eternal life.

Everyone else is now born without Holy Spirit life, without eternal life, in spiritual death.

But their human spirits are not dead, they just do not possess Holy Spirit life, eternal life.

There is no such thing as spiritual death in the Scriptures

Sorry about your perception and understanding of Scripture.

Col 2:13 - "When you were dead in your sins. . .God made you alive with Christ."

Eph 2:1,3 - "You were dead in your transgressions and sins. . .by nature objects of wrath."

Jn 5:24 - "Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. . .he has crossed over from death to life."

1Jn 3:14 - "We know we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. . .no murderer has eternal life in him."

So what was dead? . . .it wasn't their bodies.
From what death did they cross over and pass?

Humans don't have spirits, other than the breath of life from God.

You keep saying that in the face of what the NT reveals, and still do not address the texts:

1) Mt 22:31-32 - "In the account of the bush (Lk 20:37-38), have you not read what God said to you, 'I am (present tense) the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Two hundred years after the death of the patriarchs, God declared he is (present tense) the God of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Ex 3:6). Since he is (present tense) the God only of the living, and not the God of the dead, what part of the patriarchs are still living?

2) Lk 16:22-26 - "The time came when the beggar man died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. . .he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to. . .cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
But Abraham replied. . .'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Jesus presented the rich man in hell, with he and Abraham conversing with one another after their deaths.
He presented their spirits as conversing with one another because their spirits are immortal.

3) Heb 12:18, 22-24 - "You have not come to a mountain that is burning with fire. . .You have come to Mount Zion. . .You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant. . ."

The NT reveals that the spirits of former righteous believers (e.g., Abel and Noah, vv.4, 7) are immortal and are waiting for the resurrection.

Did Jesus' human spirit die before he rose from the dead?

4) Lk 8:53-55 - "They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. But he took her by the hand and said, 'My child, get up!' Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up."

This text speaks for itself. Her spirit did not die when her body died.

5) Lk 8:51 - "If anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

Well, all those to whom Jesus spoke those words are now dead. . .hmmm.
And God told Adam that the day he ate of the fruit he would die, but he lived for centuries. . .hmmm.
Are Jesus and God not on the same page? . . .hmmm.

So what part of living Adam died, and what part of dead believers will never see death? . .hmmm.

6) Php 1:23 - "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ which is better by far, but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

The NT plainly states that when believers die, they are with Christ, apart from their body.

So what part of them is with Christ, apart from their body?

Now, to address 1Ti 6:16 which you presented in refutation of man's immortal spirit, let me begin with:

7) 1Ti 1:17 - "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only [wise] God."
Now, to address 1Ti 6:16 which you presented in refutation of man's immortal spirit, let me begin with

First of all, "wise" is not in the Greek text. It reads, "the only God."

God is
eternal (King of the ages),
immortal,
invisible,
the only God.

Secondly, the Greek word translated "immortal" here is aphthartos, which means "incorruptible."

God is physically "incorruptible" because he has no body which, therefore, makes him immortal.
God is also a morally "incorruptible" spirit, because he is God.
God is both a morally and physically incorruptible (aphthartos) spirit.

8) 1Ti 6:16 - "God. . .who alone is immortal."

The text is stating that God alone is the incorruptible (1Ti 1:17) immortal being.

How do we know that?
Because God is the author of Scripture (2Ti 3:16,) and God does not contradict himself.

God is not the only immortal being, because angels are immortal, and demons are immortal.

So the text means something else.

The same kind of phraseology is seen in the same epistle at 1:17, presented above.
So in the light of 1Ti 1:17, where incorruptible has been translated immortal, we see what is meant in 6:16.
God is the only morally incorruptible/immortal being.

Thus 1Ti 6:16 does not disagree with other Scripture which reveals angels and demons are immortal.
But even though the angels are immortal, they could be, and were, corrupted in the heavenly rebellion.

The NT reveals that all spirits are immortal. . .God, angels, demons and human spirits
(Php 1:23; Heb 12:18, 22-24; Mt 22:31-32; Lk 16:22-26).

But God is the only incorruptible/immortal spirit.

 

[cygnusx1]

Russelites? It seems to me you've just described most Christians.

No, I'm not SDA.

Not so

Most Christians accept the doctrine of the Trinity , based upon the holistic approach .

 

[Clare73]

As I said, that's your interpretation. I've pointed out before that Hilasterion is translated "mercy seat" much more than propitiation. I've also pointed out the Mercy Seat fits just fine in Romans 3:25. Just because the Reformers chose to use the word propitiation doesn't mean that's what the passage means. We can see that
prior to the Reformation it was not translated propitiation.

That would be because of faulty translation prior to the Reformation.

For since ~300 years before Christ, the Jewish translators of the OT into the Greek Septuagint (LXX) have presented a propitiatory sacrifice in the hilasterion epithema.

In the Greek OT Septuagint (LXX), Mercy Seat is hilasterion epithema.
It refers to the lid or cover of the Ark of the Covenant, called kapporeth in the Hebrew, meaning the covering of or the removal of sin (Ps 32:1) by means of expiatory (animal) sacrifice, and was translated epithema in the Greek.
The Jewish translators of the Greek OT LXX added hilasterion, which is an adjective signifying the propiatory.
Eventually, hilasterion stood for both hilasterion and epithema.

So the OT Hebrew kapporeth = Greek OT hilasterion epithema since ~300 years before the birth of Christ, which = English NT expiatory propitiation.
It's been the NT meaning of "atonement" since the Greek NT was written, which was ~300 years after the Greek OT (LXX) was translated.

The Mercy Seat, along with with Ark, is referred to as the footstool of God (1Chr 28:2; Ps 99:5, 132:7).
God promised to be present upon it and to commune with Moses "from above the mercy-seat, from between the two cherubim" (Ex 25:22; Lev 1:1).

So, now can you present a consistent (logically sensible) and Biblical explanation of Ro 3:25-26 using "mercy seat" (which actually does not change the import of Ro 3:25-26), which agrees with the whole text?

I've presented questions which must be answered in order to address the whole text.
I've also presented my answers to those questions from the text.

Now it's your turn.

"God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of propitiation (atonement) through faith in his blood.

He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had passed over

(left unpunished) the sins committed beforehand (OT)--he did it to demonstrate his justice

at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies." (Ro 3:25-26)

1) What did God "pass over" the sins committed beforehand (OT)?

-----Penalty on their sin was "passed over," their sin was left unpunished. (penal)

2) The "what passed over" (penalty) consisted precisely of?

-----Eternal punishment due on their sin.

3) How did the "what passed over" (penalty) demonstrate God's justice?

-----Justice requires a penalty for law breaking.

4) For what did Jesus' sacrificial death atone?

-----The law-breaking of all those who believe in his propitiation for their sin (of breaking God's laws). (atonement)

5) How does Jesus' sacrificial death atone (make reparation, amends) for it?

-----He paid the penalty due for their law-breaking. (subsitution)

6) What is the connection between his atonement and my faith in it (his blood)?

-----The forgiveness of sin, purchased by Jesus' sacrifice of propitiation paying my penalty, is applied to me only by faith

in his propitiation, and that forgiveness is salvation, from the wrath of God at the final judgment.

The word of God in Ro 3:25-26 clearly presents substitutional penal atonement.

 

[Butch5]

Sorry about your perception and understanding of Scripture.

Col 2:13 - "When you were dead in your sins. . .God made you alive with Christ."

Eph 2:1,3 - "You were dead in your transgressions and sins. . .by nature objects of wrath."

Jn 5:24 - "Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. . .he has crossed over from death to life."

1Jn 3:14 - "We know we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. . .no murderer has eternal life in him."

So what was dead? . . .it wasn't their bodies.
From what death did they pass?


You keep saying that in the face of what the NT reveals, and still do not address the texts:

1) Mt 22:31-32 - "In the account of the bush (Lk 20:37-38), have you not read what God said to you, 'I am (present tense) the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Two hundred years after the death of the patriarchs, God declared he is (present tense) the God of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Ex 3:6). Since he is (present tense) the God only of the living, and not the God of the dead, what part of the patriarchs are still living?

2) Lk 16:22-26 - "The time came when the beggar man died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. . .he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to. . .cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
But Abraham replied. . .'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Jesus presented the rich man in hell, with he and Abraham conversing with one another after their deaths.
He presented their spirits as conversing with one another because their spirits are immortal.

3) Heb 12:18, 22-24 - "You have not come to a mountain that is burning with fire. . .You have come to Mount Zion. . .You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant. . ."

The NT reveals that the spirits of former righteous believers (e.g., Abel and Noah, vv.4, 7) are immortal and are waiting for the resurrection.

Did Jesus' human spirit die before he rose from the dead?

4) Lk 8:53-55 - "They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. But he took her by the hand and said, 'My child, get up!' Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up."

This text speaks for itself. Her spirit did not die when her body died.

5) Lk 8:51 - "If anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

Well, his body will be seeing death, so what part of him will never see death?

6) Php 1:23 - "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ which is better by far, but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

The NT plainly states that when believers die, they are with Christ, apart from their body.

So what part of them is with Christ, apart from their body?

7) 1Ti 1:17 - "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only [wise] God."

First of all, "wise" is not in the Greek text. It reads, "the only God."

God is
eternal (King of the ages),
immortal,
invisible,
the only God.

Secondly, the Greek word translated "immortal" here is aphthartos, which means "incorruptible."

God is physically "incorruptible" because he has no body which, therefore, makes him immortal.
God is also a morally "incorruptible" spirit, because he is God.
God is both a physically and morally incorruptible (aphthartos) spirit.

8) 1Ti 6:16 - "God. . .who alone is immortal."

The text is stating that God alone is the incorruptible (1Ti 1:17) immortal being.

How do we know that?
Because God is the author of Scripture (2Ti 3:16,) and God does not contradict himself.

God is not the only immortal being, because angels are immortal, and demons are immortal.

So the text means something else.

The same kind of phraseology is seen in the same epistle at 1:17, presented above.
So in the light of 1Ti 1:17, where incorruptible has been translated immortal, we see what is meant in 6:16.
God is the only morally incorruptible/immortal being.

Thus 1Ti 6:16 does not disagree with other Scripture which reveals angels and demons are immortal.
But even though the angels are immortal, they could be, and were, corrupted in the heavenly rebellion.

The NT reveals that all spirits are immortal. . .God, angels, demons and human spirits
(Php 1:23; Heb 12:18, 22-24; Mt 22:31-32; Lk 16:22-26).

But God is the only incorruptible/immortal spirit.

You might want to study this topic rather than proof texting it.

 

[Butch5]

That would be because of faulty translation prior to the Reformation.

For since ~300 years before Christ, the Jewish translators of the OT into the Greek Septuagint (LXX) have presented a propitiatory sacrifice in the hilasterion epithema.

In the Greek OT Septuagint (LXX), Mercy Seat is hilasterion epithema.
It refers to the lid or cover of the Ark of the Covenant, called kapporeth in the Hebrew, meaning the covering of or the removal of sin (Ps 32:1) by means of expiatory (animal) sacrifice, and was translated epithema in the Greek.
The Jewish translators of the Greek OT LXX added hilasterion, which is an adjective signifying the propiatory.
Eventually, hilasterion stood for both hilasterion and epithema.

So the OT Hebrew kapporeth = Greek OT hilasterion epithema since ~300 years before the birth of Christ, which = English NT expiatory propitiation.
It's been the NT meaning of "atonement" since the Greek NT was written, which was ~300 years after the Greek OT (LXX) was translated.

The Mercy Seat, along with with Ark, is referred to as the footstool of God (1Chr 28:2; Ps 99:5, 132:7).
God promised to be present upon it and to commune with Moses "from above the mercy-seat, from between the two cherubim" (Ex 25:22; Lev 1:1).

So, now can you present a consistent (logically sensible) and Biblical explanation of Ro 3:25-26 using "mercy seat" (which actually does not change the import of Ro 3:25-26), which agrees with the whole text?

I've presented questions which must be answered in order to address the whole text.
I've also presented my answers to those questions from the text.

Now it's your turn.

"God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of propitiation (atonement) through faith in his blood.

He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had passed over

(left unpunished) the sins committed beforehand (OT)--he did it to demonstrate his justice

at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies." (Ro 3:25-26)

1) What did God "pass over" the sins committed beforehand (OT)?

-----Penalty on their sin was "passed over," their sin was left unpunished. (penal)

2) The "what passed over" (penalty) consisted precisely of?

-----Eternal punishment due on their sin.

3) How did the "what passed over" (penalty) demonstrate God's justice?

-----Justice requires a penalty for law breaking.

4) For what did Jesus' sacrificial death atone?

-----The law-breaking of all those who believe in his propitiation for their sin (of breaking God's laws). (atonement)

5) How does Jesus' sacrificial death atone (make reparation, amends) for it?

-----He paid the penalty due for their law-breaking. (subsitution)

6) What is the connection between his atonement and my faith in it (his blood)?

-----The forgiveness of sin, purchased by Jesus' sacrifice of propitiation paying my penalty, is applied to me only by faith

in his propitiation, and that forgiveness is salvation, from the wrath of God at the final judgment.

The word of God in Ro 3:25-26 clearly presents substitutional penal atonement.

That would be because of faulty translation prior to the Reformation.

Of course, because the Reformers were inspirited right? Everyone before them had no idea what the faith was, including the apostles, right. Or maybe it's just that anything that show Clare is incorrect is simply wrong.

 

[Butch5]

Not so

Most Christians accept the doctrine of the Trinity , based upon the holistic approach .

Most Christians I hear talk about it don't even understand the Trinity.

 

[Butch5]

Obviously neither Adam nor Eve died a physical death that day, nevertheless God told them, in that day they would surely die. So, in what way do you propose that they died?

Hi AW,

I just addressed this with Clare. Both the Jews and Christians of Jesus day understood that this referred to Psalm 95, a is as a thousand year with the Lord. Peter stated this also. This is addressed in the book of Jubilees.

Book of Jubilees Chapter 4

29 And at the close of the nineteenth jubilee, in the seventh week in the sixth year [930 A.M.] thereof, Adam died, and all his sons buried him in the land of his creation, and he was the first to be buried in the earth.
30 And he lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: 'On the day that you eat thereof you shall die.' For this reason he did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

What did Jesus drive out of legion into the swine then? The breath of life? How does the Holy Spirit indwell in a believer?

My statement was in regard to a spirit that lives on after the body dies. I said that God's spirit is in man, that is the only one that man has.

 

[Butch5]

Here are a few snippets Clare that may be of interest.

The History of the Immortal-Soul Teaching


Despite widespread use of the phrase immortal soul, this terminology is found nowhere in the Bible. Where did the idea of an immortal soul originate?


The concept of the soul's supposed immortality was first taught in ancient Egypt and Babylon. "The belief that the soul continues in existence after the dissolution of the body is...speculation...nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture...The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended" ( Jewish Encyclopedia, 1941, Vol. 6, "Immortality of the Soul," pp. 564, 566).

Plato (428-348 B.C.), the Greek philosopher and student of Socrates, taught that the body and the "immortal soul" separate at death. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia comments on ancient Israel's view of the soul: "We are influenced always more or less by the Greek, Platonic idea that the body dies, yet the soul is immortal. Such an idea is utterly contrary to the Israelite consciousness and is nowhere found in the Old Testament" (1960, Vol. 2, "Death," p. 812).

Early Christianity was influenced and corrupted by Greek philosophies as it spread through the Greek and Roman world. By A.D. 200 the doctrine of the immortality of the soul became a controversy among Christian believers.

The Evangelical Dictionary of Theology notes that Origen, an early and influential Catholic theologian, was influenced by Greek thinkers: "Speculation about the soul in the subapostolic church was heavily influenced by Greek philosophy. This is seen in Origen's acceptance of Plato's doctrine of the preexistence of the soul as pure mind ( nous ) originally, which, by reason of its fall from God, cooled down to soul ( psyche ) when it lost its participation in the divine fire by looking earthward" (1992, "Soul," p. 1037).

Secular history reveals that the concept of the immortality of the soul is an ancient belief embraced by many pagan religions. But it's not a biblical teaching and is not found in either the Old or New Testaments.

 

[cygnusx1]

Most Christians I hear talk about it don't even understand the Trinity.

The point is they don't deny it because of Russelite proof texting !

 

[Clare73]

Sorry about your perception and understanding of Scripture.
For you misunderstand spiritual death.

Col 2:13 - "When you were dead in your sins. . .God made you alive with Christ."

Eph 2:1,3 - "You were dead in your transgressions and sins. . .by nature objects of wrath."

Jn 5:24 - "Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. . .he has crossed over from death to life."

1Jn 3:14 - "We know we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. . .no murderer has eternal life in him."

So what was dead? . . .it wasn't their bodies.
From what death did they pass?

Humans do not have spirits

You keep saying that in the face of what the NT reveals, and still do not address the texts:

1) Mt 22:31-32 - "In the account of the bush (Lk 20:37-38), have you not read what God said to you, 'I am (present tense) the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Two hundred years after the death of the patriarchs, God declared he is (present tense) the God of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Ex 3:6). Since he is (present tense) the God only of the living, and not the God of the dead, what part of the patriarchs are still living?

2) Lk 16:22-26 - "The time came when the beggar man died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. . .he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to. . .cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
But Abraham replied. . .'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Jesus presented the rich man in hell, with he and Abraham conversing with one another after their deaths.
He presented their spirits as conversing with one another because their spirits are immortal.

3) Heb 12:18, 22-24 - "You have not come to a mountain that is burning with fire. . .You have come to Mount Zion. . .You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant. . ."

The NT reveals that the spirits of former righteous believers (e.g., Abel and Noah, vv.4, 7) are immortal and are waiting for the resurrection.

Did Jesus' human spirit die before he rose from the dead?

4) Lk 8:53-55 - "They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. But he took her by the hand and said, 'My child, get up!' Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up."

This text speaks for itself. Her spirit did not die when her body died.

5) Lk 8:51 - "If anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

Well, his body will be seeing death, so what part of him will never see death?

6) Php 1:23 - "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ which is better by far, but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

The NT plainly states that when believers die, they are with Christ, apart from their body.

So what part of them is with Christ, apart from their body?

7) 1Ti 1:17 - "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only [wise] God."

First of all, "wise" is not in the Greek text. It reads, "the only God."

God is
eternal (King of the ages),
immortal,
invisible,
the only God.

Secondly, the Greek word translated "immortal" here is aphthartos, which means "incorruptible."

God is physically "incorruptible" because he has no body which, therefore, makes him immortal.
God is also a morally "incorruptible" spirit, because he is God.
God is both a physically and morally incorruptible (aphthartos) spirit.

8) 1Ti 6:16 - "God. . .who alone is immortal."

The text is stating that God alone is the incorruptible (1Ti 1:17) immortal being.

How do we know that?
Because God is the author of Scripture (2Ti 3:16,) and God does not contradict himself.

God is not the only immortal being, because angels are immortal, and demons are immortal.

So the text means something else.

The same kind of phraseology is seen in the same epistle at 1:17, presented above.
So in the light of 1Ti 1:17, where incorruptible has been translated immortal, we see what is meant in 6:16.
God is the only morally incorruptible/immortal being.

Thus 1Ti 6:16 does not disagree with other Scripture which reveals angels and demons are immortal.
But even though the angels are immortal, they could be, and were, corrupted in the heavenly rebellion.

The NT reveals that all spirits are immortal. . .God, angels, demons and human spirits
(Php 1:23; Heb 12:18, 22-24; Mt 22:31-32; Lk 16:22-26).

But God is the only incorruptible/immortal spirit.

You might want to study this topic rather than proof texting it.

Still not addressing the texts. . .

Q.E.D.

 

[Clare73]

prior to the Reformation it was not translated propitiation.

That would be because of faulty translation prior to the Reformation.

For since ~300 years before Christ, the Jewish translators of the OT into the Greek Septuagint (LXX) have presented a propitiatory sacrifice in the hilasterion epithema.

In the Greek OT Septuagint (LXX), Mercy Seat is hilasterion epithema.
It refers to the lid or cover of the Ark of the Covenant, called kapporeth in the Hebrew, meaning the covering of or the removal of sin (Ps 32:1) by means of expiatory (animal) sacrifice, and was translated epithema in the Greek.
The Jewish translators of the Greek OT LXX added hilasterion, which is an adjective signifying the propiatory.
Eventually, hilasterion stood for both hilasterion and epithema.

So the OT Hebrew kapporeth = Greek OT hilasterion epithema since ~300 years before the birth of Christ, which = English NT expiatory propitiation.
It's been the NT meaning of "atonement" since the Greek NT was written, which was ~300 years after the Greek OT (LXX) was translated.

The Mercy Seat, along with with Ark, is referred to as the footstool of God (1Chr 28:2; Ps 99:5, 132:7).
God promised to be present upon it and to commune with Moses "from above the mercy-seat, from between the two cherubim" (Ex 25:22; Lev 1:1).

So, now can you present a consistent (logically sensible) and Biblical explanation of Ro 3:25-26 using "mercy seat" (which actually does not change the import of Ro 3:25-26), which agrees with the whole text?

I've presented questions which must be answered in order to address the whole text.
I've also presented my answers to those questions from the text.

Now it's your turn.

"God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of propitiation (atonement) through faith in his blood.

He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had passed over

(left unpunished) the sins committed beforehand (OT)--he did it to demonstrate his justice

at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies." (Ro 3:25-26)

1) What did God "pass over" the sins committed beforehand (OT)?

-----Penalty on their sin was "passed over," their sin was left unpunished. (penal)

2) The "what passed over" (penalty) consisted precisely of?

-----Eternal punishment due on their sin.

3) How did the "what passed over" (penalty) demonstrate God's justice?

-----Justice requires a penalty for law breaking.

4) For what did Jesus' sacrificial death atone?

-----The law-breaking of all those who believe in his propitiation for their sin (of breaking God's laws). (atonement)

5) How does Jesus' sacrificial death atone (make reparation, amends) for it?

-----He paid the penalty due for their law-breaking. (subsitution)

6) What is the connection between his atonement and my faith in it (his blood)?

-----The forgiveness of sin, purchased by Jesus' sacrifice of propitiation paying my penalty, is applied to me only by faith

in his propitiation, and that forgiveness is salvation, from the wrath of God at the final judgment.

The word of God in Ro 3:25-26 clearly presents substitutional penal atonement.

Of course, because the Reformers were inspirited right? Everyone before them had no idea what the faith was, including the apostles, right.

Wrong again. . .

Actually it was due to not being familiar with the ancient Greek used by the Jewish translators of the OT into Greek ~300 years before Christ.

And still not addressing the text. . .

Q.E.D.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I just addressed this with Clare. Both the Jews and Christians of Jesus day understood that this referred to Psalm 95, a is as a thousand year with the Lord. Peter stated this also. This is addressed in the book of Jubilees.

Book of Jubilees Chapter 4

29 And at the close of the nineteenth jubilee, in the seventh week in the sixth year [930 A.M.] thereof, Adam died, and all his sons buried him in the land of his creation, and he was the first to be buried in the earth.
30 And he lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: 'On the day that you eat thereof you shall die.' For this reason he did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

If you mean, in the fall of man, one of the judgments the Lord enforced on mankind is a shortening of days [and not only with Adam, but progressively man's days are numbered fewer and fewer] to be alive on earth in the flesh, then I agree. However, with the fall of man, came more than just a shortening of life in the flesh.

My statement was in regard to a spirit that lives on after the body dies. I said that God's spirit is in man, that is the only one that man has.

So what would be the difference between man's soul, and man's spirit? Surely you would agree man has a soul.

 

[Clare73]

Hi AW,

I just addressed this with Clare.

Which response I feel he has also already seen. . .

4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. (Psa 90:4 KJV)

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (2Pe 3:8 KJV)

Sorry about your perception and understanding of Scripture.

Note the grammatical usage of "as."

Those Scriptures are statements of timelessness, not statements giving the nature of time in timelessness.
They are showing there is no comparison between time and timelessness.

The Father does not live in time.
Therefore, there is no measurement into days or years of the timelessness in which he dwells.
That is the purport of those texts.

However, creation took place in time.
The creation account is given in the terms of earthly time, six days.

Not to mention your texts have nothing to do with the creation account.

There is no basis for the fanciful notion that "day" in Ge 2:17 is actually 1,000 years.
Timelessness cannot be stated in terms of time.

 

[Butch5]

Which response I feel he has also already seen. . .

Sorry about your perception and understanding of Scripture.

Note the grammatical usage of "as."

Those Scriptures are statements of timelessness, not statements giving the nature of time in timelessness.
They are showing there is no comparison between time and timelessness.

The Father does not live in time.
Therefore, there is no measurement into days or years of the timelessness in which he dwells.
That is the purport of those texts.

However, creation took place in time.
The creation account is given in the terms of earthly time, six days.

Not to mention your texts have nothing to do with the creation account.

There is no basis for the fanciful notion that "day" in Ge 2:17 is actually 1,000 years.
Timelessness cannot be stated in terms of time.

If you knew church history you would see the basis for it.

 

[Clare73]

Here are a few snippets Clare that may be of interest.

The History of the Immortal-Soul Teaching

Thanks, Butch, but I said nothing about a soul.

1) Heb 12:18, 22-24 - "You have not come to a mountain that is burning with fire. . .You have come to Munt Zion. . .You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant. . ."

The NT reveals that the spirits of former righteous believers (e.g., Abel and Noah, vv.4, 7) are immortal and are waiting for the resurrection.

Did Jesus' human spirit die before he rose from the dead?

2) Lk 8:53-55 - "They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. But he took her by the hand and said, 'My child, get up!' Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up."

This text speaks for itself. Her spirit did not die when her body died.

3) Mt 22:31-32 - "In the account of the bush (Lk 20:37-38), have you not read what God said to you, 'I am (present tense) the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Two hundred years after the death of the patriarchs, God declared he is (present tense) the God of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Ex 3:6). Since he is (present tense) the God only of the living, and not the God of the dead, what part of the patriarchs are still living?

4) Lk 16:22-26 - "The time came when the beggar man died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. . .he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to. . .cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
But Abraham replied. . .'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Jesus presented the rich man in hell, with he and Abraham conversing with one another after their deaths.
He presented their spirits as conversing with one another because their spirits are immortal.

5) Lk 8:51 - "If anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

Well, his body will be seeing death, so what part of him will never see death?

6) Php 1:23 - "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ which is better by far, but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

The NT plainly states that when believers die, they are with Christ, apart from their body.

So what part of them is with Christ, apart from their body?

7) 1Ti 1:17 - "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only [wise] God."

First of all, "wise" is not in the Greek text. It reads, "the only God."

God is
eternal (King of the ages),
immortal,
invisible,
the only God.

Secondly, the Greek word translated "immortal" here is aphthartos, which means "incorruptible."

God is physically "incorruptible" because he has no body which, therefore, makes him immortal.
God is also a morally "incorruptible" spirit, because he is God.
God is both a physically and morally incorruptible (aphthartos) spirit.

8) 1Ti 6:16 - "God. . .who alone is immortal."

The text is stating that God alone is the incorruptible (1Ti 1:17) immortal being.

How do we know that?
Because God is the author of Scripture (2Ti 3:16,) and God does not contradict himself.

God is not the only immortal being, because angels are immortal, and demons are immortal.

So the text means something else.

The same kind of phraseology is seen in the same epistle at 1:17, presented above.
So in the light of 1Ti 1:17, where incorruptible has been translated immortal, we see what is meant in 6:16.
God is the only morally incorruptible/immortal being.

Thus 1Ti 6:16 does not disagree with other Scripture which reveals angels and demons are immortal.
But even though the angels are immortal, they could be, and were, corrupted in the heavenly rebellion.

The NT reveals that all spirits are immortal. . .God, angels, demons and human spirits
(Php 1:23; Heb 12:18, 22-24; Mt 22:31-32; Lk 16:22-26).

But God is the only incorruptible/immortal spirit.

Still not addressing the texts. . .

Q.E.D.

 

[Butch5]

If you mean, in the fall of man, one of the judgments the Lord enforced on mankind is a shortening of days [and not only with Adam, but progressively man's days are numbered fewer and fewer] to be alive on earth in the flesh, then I agree. However, with the fall of man, came more than just a shortening of life in the flesh.

I don't think it has to do with man, but rather with Adam. The statement was made to Adam and he did not live past the 1000 years. No man has lived past one thousand years.

So what would be the difference between man's soul, and man's spirit? Surely you would agree man has a soul.

According to the Scriptures Man consists of a body, created from the dust and the breath/spirit of God. These two combined to make Adam a living soul. From this we can deduce that a soul is a living being which was created from God's breath/spirit and the dust of the earth.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV)

Solomon said that there is "one" breath in man and animals. He also said that when man dies he returns to the dust and the breath/spirit returns to God. Job said that if God retrieved His breath/spirit all flesh would die.

We see nothing in the creation or death of man that speaks of a spirit that continues on after death. There are quite a few passages in Scripture that speak of the dead and say things like, they cannot praise God, they know nothing, etc.

 

[Butch5]

Wrong again. . .

Actually it was due to not being familiar with the ancient Greek used by the Jewish translators of the OT into Greek ~300 years before Christ.

And still not addressing the text. . .

Q.E.D.

Yet the Reformers didn't have that problem of course. They were perfect and everyone else is/was wrong, right?

I guess even the early church writers who spoke Greek didn't understand the Greek right?

 

[Butch5]

The point is they don't deny it because of Russelite proof texting !

My point is that many Christians "do" deny the Scriptures because of proof texting. Look at Clare's posts. I've presented numerous passages of Scripture that plainly refute what she claims yet she insists on Proof Texting a few passage from which she "infers" that man has an immortal spirit. We can find the same thing in the OSAS threads, the Baptism threads, and on and on.

 

[Butch5]

Still not addressing the texts. . .

Q.E.D.

There's nothing there to address. Which text says that man has an immortal spirit? Point one out and I'll address it.

 

[Clare73]

Yet the Reformers didn't have that problem of course. They were perfect and everyone else is/was wrong, right?

I guess even the early church writers who spoke Greek didn't understand the Greek right?

Check out kione Greek, no longer used after ~300 A.D.

It was a long time before classical Greek scholars came into knowledge of it again.

Therein was the problem of translation.

Still not addressing the text of Ro 3:25-26. . .