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Good advice. Thank you.More advise- ( things I would do different if I could turn the clock back):
1When Christian objects to Torah reallllly listen to them and dont judge, same with Jews(about Yeshua), leave them lots of room to explore this as they wish.
2We cannot be one unless we are willing to be one with all our faults and we will always have faults sooo try to not play God...He is working in each of us to make us one, we just have to be willing to let him do this as he wills and not try to do it for him remember the tares and wheat grow together , the wild olive is grafted into the natural olive. Who knows what we are till he comes....miracles happen in the meantime....the first will be last and visa versa
3This is where the gifts you possess will come in handy....This is where you have felt judged by folks but where you actually have the power to help
Bless and do not curse no matter what and bless again when you do slip up as we all do....keep those who judge you on your blessing list
4Your doing soooooo good so far and it will be the best ride of your life if you do only what you feel you understand and have a very comfortable feeling about
5And dont lay the same expectation on anyone else that the Lord lays on you.....your feeling led, allow them to feel led too however it happens to them
6 again ...Bless those who curse you and
Use your gifts when the holy spirit nudges your heart
Im very excited for you!
. . .
1. What's an example of something Jews have split over?
2. Have they split with MJ's over any Halacha?
Shalom Truthfrees, hope all is well with you
1. What's an example of something Jews have split over?
The second coming of Christ is highly debated by those who oppose the literal return of Christ.
2Co 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.
Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
2 Cor 12.21 was talking about Paul going back to Corinth. It has nothing to do with Jesus coming back to earth. What in the world??
The second coming of Christ is highly debated by those who oppose the literal return of Christ.
2Co 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.
Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
2 Cor 12.21 was talking about Paul going back to Corinth. It has nothing to do with Jesus coming back to earth. What in the world??
Context.
The first quote, being taken from a letter of St. Paul to the Church at Corinth is out of context.
Acts 1:6 does show that Jesus Christ did not fit the "expectations" of many Jews. More appropriate quotes to support this would be found in Matthew 24:27 New King James Version: 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.; Acts 10:42 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. and 2 Timothy, the whole of Chapter 4; particularly in verse one; 1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:.
Absolutely not! I know you are not anti-Semetic, and I didn't even hint at that. But accusing me of that was a pretty good way to avoid the real substance of my post.Are you saying because I like someone's explanation I am guilty of the same accusation you give to them?
To which I replied...Those are easier to understand if you answer the second question first. Israel refused to become the light to the nations. It became insular, and shut itself off from them. They were given a last chance by Yeshua, and then the torch was passed to the gentiles.
So I'll ask you again to substantiate your claims, please. It is the Jewish people who are a light unto the gentiles by bringing forth, and upholding the Torah (observing the mitzvot). When has the Church ever been Torah observant? When has the Church ever promoted Torah observance? Doesn't the Church do the exact opposite, and claim that Torah Law ended when Yeshua was crucified? Not only that, but do they not claim one of the main reasons he was crucified was to free people from Torah Law, which they view as a curse?There was no "torch" that Yeshua gave Israel some kind of "last chance" to continue with, but then ended up "giving it to the gentiles." Pat has indulged himself in a bit of "pseudo history" as well as telling unscriptural "fairy tales."
Lets look at the basic facts that nobody needs to be a theological genius to know. It is Israel alone (the Jews, G-d's chosen covenant people) who is Torah observant, and remains a light unto the gentiles. The Church has never...EVER...been Torah observant! Even in the end of days, we see it is the gentiles coming to the Jewish people to learn of G-d, not the other way around:
(Zec 8:23) ADONAI-Tzva'ot says, 'When that time comes, ten men will take hold - speaking all the languages of the nations - will grab hold of the cloak of a Jew and say, "We want to go with you, because we have heard that God is with you."'"
Thank you Pat
I couldnt have said it better ...that was perfect!
My comment was just to say I believe alot of the mis communication between the rest of the Church and Jews that the MJ communitee see concerning Paul is that he was just as Torah Observant and didnt teach to stop being so, but that our Salvation is not dependant on it but on the one it represents, Yeshua
Hellenization of scriptures does make it look as though the Paul is saying this.Those are easier to understand if you answer the second question first.
Israel refused to become the light to the nations. It became insular, and shut itself off from them. They were given a last chance by Yeshua, and then the torch was passed to the gentiles.
EDIT: Before someone takes the above out of context and seeks to label me antisemitic again: The church system was used to spread the word of Yahweh around the world and to all people. They did not replace Israel as Yahweh's chosen people. The elect are grafted into Israel, and Judah will have his blindness removed one day, as Paul's was removed.
Romans 11:7-8
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hearunto this day.
John 9:39-41
39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
By the way, I've finished writing up my explanation for Truthfrees's questions. If you're interested, contact me by PM and I'll send you the link. It's published online as a PDF.
I'm interested in the dialogue you mention in your presentation.By the way, it's a 17-page presentation of my opinion as to why Jews do not believe in Jesus.
I'm interested in the dialogue you mention in your presentation.
How and where can this take place?
If you are free to say everything you want to on this forum then, yes.Anywhere we have interaction, don't you think?
Anywhere we have interaction, don't you think?
If you are free to say everything you want to on this forum then, yes.
Hi Mark,
I was thinking more of dialogue rather than debate.
IOW, asking questions of the Jewish perspective for clarification, and then presenting scripture for consideration, etc.
I've been learning a lot of new things from the Jewish perspective, and am interested in first understanding the other side, and then reasoning together.
"Come now, and let us reason together, says the Lord." - Isaiah 1:18
Have you read Yonah's 17 page presentation on why Jews don't believe in Yeshua?
I was hoping for a dialogue on that topic, so anyone could present scripture in a friendly fashion.
Hi Mark,
I was thinking more of dialogue rather than debate.
IOW, asking questions of the Jewish perspective for clarification, and then presenting scripture for consideration, etc.
I've been learning a lot of new things from the Jewish perspective, and am interested in first understanding the other side, and then reasoning together.
"Come now, and let us reason together, says the Lord." - Isaiah 1:18
Have you read Yonah's 17 page presentation on why Jews don't believe in Yeshua?
I was hoping for a dialogue on that topic, so anyone could present scripture in a friendly fashion.
A dialogue is exactly what I thought you had in mind!
I mentioned above the "dialogue" that I had set up for Athanasius (a Catholic) and myself (a Lutheran) to discuss the Augsburg Confession; the document that 500 years ago caused separation of our two Churches. I envisioned a similar "go and see; ask and learn" type thread to develop understanding. I was not thinking of an adversarial-debate type thread at all.
Anywhere we have interaction, don't you think?
There's more that I liked, but this was the first thing."What did the prophets of the Bible expect to happen?
1. They expected the people of Israel to return from exile and to be united under one specific ruler, who would be descended from Judah and from the house of David. This ruler would figuratively be called "David" and be descended from the stock of Jesse.
2. They expected that this king of Israel would free Israel from subservience to other nations and usher in the time of the "kingdom of God".
3. They expected that the temple would be rebuilt in this period and that sacrifices would be offered in the temple, which would be glorious and never be destroyed.
4. They were promised that at this time all nations would stream to Jerusalem and seek to be taught of Yahweh, who would be God over all the earth."
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