PeanutGallery part 2. Isaiah 53 response to "Why don't our Jewish brothers see ...."

Truthfrees said:

In the spirit of truth-seeking and clearing up misunderstandings, yes, thank you for allowing this to take place.

It's an unprecedented privilege to discuss scripture and ask a Jewish brother my questions. (MJ or not)

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Your right!
Im glad we could do that here

Your right again!!!

Truthfrees said:

Yep. Will do.

When we play nice people hear what we have to say better.

Offending others closes their ears and heart.

"A brother offended is harder to be won over than a strong city, and [their] contentions separate them like the bars of a castle." - Proverbs 18:19

What does G-d ask of us?

"Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!" - Psalm 133:1

"Rather, let our lives lovingly express truth [in all things, speaking truly, dealing truly, living truly]. Enfolded in love, let us grow up in every way and in all things into Him Who is the Head, [even] Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One)." - Ephesians 4:15

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^^^QFT

Truthfrees said:

Reading through this thread again. It took me several reads to fully understand what you're saying. Thank you for this answer.

1. Did the Apostles teach TORAH to Gentiles? What is Acts 15 about? Specifically:

"1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved." - Acts 15:1

"5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they." - Acts 15:5-11


2. What did Peter mean in vs 10? The Gentiles are unable to keep TORAH and so also Jews?

3. Does the SPIRIT of Yeshua NOW in us cause us to keep TORAH in a way that was PREVIOUSLY a burden to bear? (Philippians 4:13, 2:13, Colossians 1:29, 27)

4. IS being circumcised accepting Judaism?

5. If Gentiles WEREN'T required to be circumcised and keep the laws, what does that mean? How can we be one group as Yeshua said we're to be (John 10:16)?

6. Why were Gentiles NOT required to be circumcised?

7. What's changed between the 1st and 2nd Covenant?

I would like the MESSIANIC JUDAIC POV. I already know the Christian POV. I'm starting to see what you mean by Greek influence in Christianity.

The LORD bless you.

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I will try to boil this down in a comprehensive way.

"Does the SPIRIT of Yeshua NOW in us cause us to keep TORAH in a way that was PREVIOUSLY a burden to bear?"

While the Torah is not a burden, our past and current inability to keep it properly causes problems.

I cannot give you a verse-by-verse commentary on Acts, but I can tell you that the MJ's generally find one way or another to explain the NT as being pro-Torah. There are different views on circumcision, but the majority opinions seems to be that you should be circumcised if you convert.

"What's changed between the 1st and 2nd Covenant?"

The Torah remains, and will remain, and theoretical things like what you talk about here are not or should not be our main focus. To me, your questions indicate a concern with theoretical or invisible things, which are simply less important to many Jews than you might think.

Hoshiyya said:

I will try to boil this down in a comprehensive way.

"Does the SPIRIT of Yeshua NOW in us cause us to keep TORAH in a way that was PREVIOUSLY a burden to bear?"...

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Amen... It is a joy to serve the Lord.

1. Our inability or disinclination to keeping Torah is what causes us to break Torah, hence to break commandments like 'do not kill', 'do not steal'. Plainly that's a problem. As for less obvious things, like Tzitzit, our disobedience to this commandment doesn't directly cause death or pain in the world, but is still keeping us from having the same closeness to Hashem, the same immediateness of experiencing him, that we could otherwise have.

2. Well I wasn't there so I can't really know. The majority opinion of Jews and MJ's is that circumcision is required of converts in the past and today.

(I personally think circumcision is not required of the convert, but only
supposed to be performed on the 8-day-old male child, not the 9-day-old or 7-day-old or 70-year-old. This position is elaborated on by Bryan Huie in this article: "ACTS 15: WHAT WAS THE OBJECTIVE OF THE JERUSALEM COUNCIL?")

3.
"Keeping TORAH is all Jews focus on, because it IS the covenant? IOW, TORAH keeping is keeping covenant? TORAH breaking is breaking covenant? "

Yes.

Is it then so that "Nothing else matters?"

Not exactly. Here's what I originally said:
"Theoretical or invisible things ... are simply less important to many Jews than you might think"

Things which are not material, real, actual, things which do not actually affect your daily walk and lifestyle are less important than those which do, and are often completely unimportant. But many invisible and immaterial things can indeed be very interesting and precious, and much of the Traditions are concerned with purely theoreticaly things - this is true. But the theoretical things have their place, and their place is lesser than that of physical, real, things. When it comes to doctrine, the correct answer is provided by Tradition, but even if you happen to disagree with the Traditional doctrine (regarding some invisible issue), it does not matter, for your disagreement only enters the realm of reality if it starts to affect praxis, halaka, lifestyle.

For example, the Orthodox and Catholic churches split (having previously been one church) over a matter of pure theory, a completely immaterial and invisible thing. Likewise, Protestant groups may split with each other over questions which do not even begin to affect the way you live your life; questions like whether there is free will or predestination, or how many levels there are in hell, or how many levels there are in heaven, or how many angels can stand on the tip of a needle simultaneously. Jews would really only split or break with each other over matters of halaka, matters of how to live your life and keep mitzvot.

Truthfrees said:

1. "our past and current inability to keep it properly causes problems."
Can you clarify problems and solutions?

2. "majority opinions seems to be that you should be circumcised if you convert."
Is that what the gentiles in the Apostles day did? Convert eventually? IOW, keep the rules given to Noah at first, but eventually convert? Is that how the 2 walked as one? When the gentiles split away after 135AD, is that when they ceased keeping TORAH? IOW, before 135AD, gentiles embraced all things TORAH, and after 135AD they rejected all things TORAH?

3. "The Torah remains, and will remain. Theoretical or invisible things, which are simply less important to many Jews than you might think."
Christians have been taught Torah has passed away, so our understanding is weak on all things TORAH. Can you clarify? Keeping TORAH is all Jews focus on, because it IS the covenant? IOW, TORAH keeping is keeping covenant? TORAH breaking is breaking covenant? Nothing else matters? Is this what you're saying?

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I just wanna say this is very good teaching and it makes soooo much sense for people, this is why some folks in the Church are turned off by MJs .... Halacha pure and simple what MJs teach, sounds solid but when trying to live the lifestyle of some MJs it's harder than you think it is, and instead of just accepting that and staying connected in the things you do agree on they put up walls with teachings like " but we are not under the law" and "the law was nailed to the cross ". They want to throw everything out over Halacha even though the teaching attracted them at one point because it is sound and good

Jews don't split over Halacha , Torah is the same yesterday,today and forever even if Halacha is different in different MJ groups

Torah Lishmah said:

Shalom Truthfrees,

The specific concepts I mentioned in Paul's writings are not an isolated single passage, but things he has repeatedly claimed. That is why I stressed that fact, because it never fails that if someone disagrees with Paul's theology, the first thing almost always mentioned in an attempt to defend Paul's horrible theology on this particular subject is that one must not be understanding him correctly, or there has been some kind of translational error. Most, if not all Christians and Messianics, simply refuse to even entertain the possibility that Paul is simply wrong about certain things. So I'll be more specific, and provide references straight from the Greek testament, if you would truly like to discuss this with an open mind? Judging by your user name this shouldn't be a problem, since both of us are interested ONLY in the truth, whatever that may be, even if it means adjusting our own beliefs. Correct?


That depends on the one your asking. But that really has no bearing in this discussion.

However, you are incorrect. Peter was the original, and true Apostle to the gentiles. I happen to believe that Paul was a false Apostle, and the Greek testament itself confirms that fact. I know that is not a very popular opinion in Jesus based forums, but I wanted to let you know ahead of time exactly where I stand concerning Paul. The reasons why I believe that to be the case would more than likely be out of bounds for discussion here at CF. But I'll answer any questions you (or others) might have, through the private messaging system this forum uses.

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I can give you a personal example of a split with in our family

We were eating lunch one day and my adopted son's birth uncle(also MJ) was having a beef, bean and cheese burrito with us(kosher according to us and our congregation/ most MJs)

After a couple bites he asked if there was cheese, I said yes and he jumped to his feet, ran to the kitchen sink and spit it out and rinsed his mouth like he had just contacted poison:o

Their congregation does not mix meat and dairy....clearly a problem

But to our amaisment it was sooooo much a problem we have never eaten a meal with them again

They cant eat a thing at our house now as even the dishes we serve food on are contaminated because of the non separation of meat and dairy

Where before we saw them a lot, I haven't seen them in sooooo long now which is sad since we adopted the family's daughter's baby and knowing them had been such a blessing to my son

We were hurt and confused as most MJ congregations don't practice that halaka and why were they choosing that over relationship with us.....but

Before had we done that too? Yes many times with kosher food vs unclean food( pork/ shellfish)...I had refused to eat at all my chicken cob salad served with real bacon bits that my mom made for me on my birthday and only had birthday cake that night, or there was a chicken asian dish with some oyster plum sauce at niece's graduation dinner that they had paid for
We let what folks served at events( family included ) get in the way of fellowship and relationships...can you see the dilemma for Gentiles coming into Torah Teaching with the Jewish culture

It can become a tangled web of issues from what catsup you eat and does your chicken sausage have the right casing. Is that burger fried on the same grill as those pork ribs over there, were these refried beens on my plate made with lard or a vegetable based grease

Most congregations are not looking for strictness and the third degree even though they are Torah therefore Kosher observant, for them its a don't ask don't tell situation. But some do require strictness and that can begin to affect relationships with the world and all Christian / Jewish/ MJ interaction too

Thats why you see the label legalistic thrown in MJ's faces.

Knowing how hurt I was at our own family situation with the meat/milk thing, I can definitely see why folks would resort to name calling and fighting over the Bible and the creation of sects / denominations when it comes to halaka

It really does separate friends and families and communities

Thats is just one example where I have been on both sides of the fence with halaka

Hellenized Jews and Christian Gentiles were solving the problem but not in a good way because they broke off completely from the Jews and created something that wasn't there before, just to keep fellowship going where strained relationships were forming now that this new Torah lifestyle was surfacing. Also the Jews didn't make it easy to transition in either ...can you imagine never seeing your family again because of that region's ( house rules)..

It was wisdom for the disciples to have a few house rules(halaka) for them to follow and allow the Torah teaching to change them as the Word became alive to them gradually

And the eating thing especially was as much an issue then as now as many Christians were judged unclean(as bad as being unsaved/pagan) based on what was in them( food wise) or where they had gotten their last(often clean) meal ( the place). Sooooo instead of judging food Kosher /clean or not it was the person who was unclean or not..... even with the Spirit of God living inside them ....simply because the place that served their Kosher meal bought their beef from pagan Pete's not from a kosher butcher

Its reallllly messy business, and thats why I said I wish all folks coming into this would feel the freedom to understand the Torah first and not accept it blindly because their Torah teacher said so

If it doesnt feel right hold off till it does as we are not talking a salvation issue here...All MJs will attest to that .....It is an obedience issue sure but as you can see, there are stumbling blocks everywhere and if you don't know the Word in these areas soundly you could be mistaking the house rules of your small corner shul as a true Torah command.

Ohhh and to solve the issue of meat and milk with your Orthodox Jewish /MJ friends...eat out( vegan is good ) or at their place and order what their having....its alot easier
And nooooo casseroles

Truthfrees said:

Makes sense. You have a gift for making things clear.

1. "TORAH keeping is keeping covenant. TORAH breaking is breaking covenant. "

2. "When it comes to doctrine, the correct answer is provided by Tradition, but even if you happen to disagree with the Traditional doctrine (regarding some invisible issue), it does not matter, for your disagreement only enters the realm of reality if it starts to affect praxis, halaka, lifestyle."

3. "Jews would really only split or break with each other over matters of halaka, matters of how to live your life and keep mitzvot."

Praxis - practice, as distinguished from theory. The gap between theory and praxis, text and world". Accepted practice or custom. "patterns of Christian praxis in church and society"

Halacha - Jewish law and jurisprudence, based on the Talmud.

Mitzvot - commandments, traditionally understood to come from God and to be intended for the Jewish people to observe. Those of us who live in the western world are often uncomfortable with the idea of being “commanded” to do something, because it seems to deprive us of the right to choose how we behave.

1. What's an example of something Jews have split over?

2. Have they split with MJ's over any Halacha?

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Tishri1 said:

Their congregation does not mix meat and dairy....clearly a problem

We were hurt and confused as most MJ congregations don't practice that halaka and why were they choosing that over relationship with us.....but

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Does this congregation have a web page? That sounds like the kind of place I like to tweak noses, especially if the leader calls himself rabbi.

.

More advise- ( things I would do different if I could turn the clock back):

1When Christian objects to Torah reallllly listen to them and dont judge, same with Jews(about Yeshua), leave them lots of room to explore this as they wish.

2We cannot be one unless we are willing to be one with all our faults and we will always have faults sooo try to not play God...He is working in each of us to make us one, we just have to be willing to let him do this as he wills and not try to do it for him remember the tares and wheat grow together , the wild olive is grafted into the natural olive. Who knows what we are till he comes....miracles happen in the meantime....the first will be last and visa versa

3This is where the gifts you possess will come in handy....This is where you have felt judged by folks but where you actually have the power to help

Bless and do not curse no matter what and bless again when you do slip up as we all do....keep those who judge you on your blessing list

4Your doing soooooo good so far and it will be the best ride of your life if you do only what you feel you understand and have a very comfortable feeling about

5And dont lay the same expectation on anyone else that the Lord lays on you.....your feeling led, allow them to feel led too however it happens to them

6 again ...Bless those who curse you and
Use your gifts when the holy spirit nudges your heart

Im very excited for you!

Truthfrees said:

OBSERVATIONS:
I've always wondered what we Christians mean by the law is no longer in effect.

The "thou shalt nots" are no longer in effect? Kill, steal, lie, commit adultery, etc is NOW OK? I don't think so.

Scripture food laws, mostly boil down to don't eat carnivores, and scavengers, only eat plant eaters. That makes sense. Why disregard something Hashem said? If I understand correctly, mad cow disease happened because plant eaters were given meat, blood, ground bone, etc in their feed. We can get medical troubles by eating clams, ham, shrimp, (carnivores, scavengers), etc. Hashem knows what HE'S talking about. Why take the risk of disobeying?

I see we Christians need to start respectfully listening to Jews and MJs so that we can sort out our errors, and be de-Hellenized. We don't even know we're Hellenized. We wrongly wag the finger at Jews and MJs. The good news though is Yeshua prayed that we all may be one, and I KNOW HIS prayers get answered. (John 17:21-22)

We were all one in the Apostle's day. We need to do that again, based on truth.

Some things that need to be sorted out with Christians are TORAH observance (specifically Halacha), and Replacement theology. As Christians do this, they will have more credibility with our Jewish brothers on the issue of Yeshua Messiah.

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pat34lee said:

Does this congregation have a web page? That sounds like the kind of place I like to tweak noses, especially if the leader calls himself rabbi.

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Nooo they didn't say what it was called

Aryeh Jay said:

Conservative Jews and Orthodox Jews have split on several areas of Halacha. One example would be driving on the Sabbath.

Different branches of Orthodox Jews have split over what exactly is a forbidden grain on Passover. Sephardi allows rice while Ashkenazi does not.

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The neat thing about it though is they live a bit differently but on holiday when huge groups get together we see them come together as much as they can

We need more of this

Every year we see our bread mingling together and touching together on the seashore on tashliek ....hundreds of Jews and MJs tossing their bread into the ocean ....and there is no respecter of persons and separation of sins(leaven) as it mingles, touches and rolls thru the waves and falls again on the shore... as we walk along the beach, my feet walking over each piece carefully knowing the prayer said in earnest to Abba , "forgive me my sins" represented in each piece of bread I encounter there

On days like this it doesn't matter the differences one iota!!