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Peanut gallery:Accepting human evolution is not a rejection of orthodoxy

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Assyrian

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I accuse him of playing games,
And I called you on it. It was a baseless accusation, which you haven't been able to defend.

I accuse you of conflating the Scriptures by diverting the discussion to irrelevant tangents,
As I haven't mentioned any scriptures in this discussion, and you don't provide any evidence for your accusation, it looks like you are the one trying to divert the discussion to irrelevant and unsubstantiated tangents. In fact that is exactly what you did when you accused the Fijian of playing games instead of dealing with his point.

yours is the greater error. I love some of the TEs on here, pray for them earnestly and believe them to be misled by a secular myth. Others I feel are led into fascinating but divisive intellectual exercises which is not only forgivable, but important. You I have not made up my mind about but suspect are simply promoting an atheistic philosophy. If you actually care about the Scriptures or sound Christian doctrine you couldn't prove it by your posts and the fact that you took your pseudonym is from a pagan empire indicates to me your just here for sport.
As well as the CrEvo debate I am also very interested in Church history, particularly the great missionary movement of the dark ages that brought the gospel across the Silk Road to Mongolia and China and down into India. The missionary church that spread the gospel was the Assyrian Church.

Isaiah 19:23 In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and Assyria will come into Egypt, and Egypt into Assyria, and the Egyptians will worship with the Assyrians.
24 In that day Israel will be the third with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing in the midst of the earth,
25 whom the LORD of hosts has blessed, saying, "Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel my inheritance."


Bottom line, I don't think you know what the scientific or theological implications are for the ongoing debate. What is far more important, I don't think you care.

Rage on you crazy diamond, I'll see you on the dark side of the moon.
There's no dark side of the Moon really. It's all dark.
 
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mark kennedy

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And I called you on it. It was a baseless accusation, which you haven't been able to defend.

It's just as well you don't know what I based it on because I've seen you address Scriptural issues and it's unimpressive at best.

As I haven't mentioned any scriptures in this discussion, and you don't provide any evidence for your accusation, it looks like you are the one trying to divert the discussion to irrelevant and unsubstantiated tangents. In fact that is exactly what you did when you accused the Fijian of playing games instead of dealing with his point.

So you support Fijian and his flaming of creationists, why am I not surprised?

As well as the CrEvo debate I am also very interested in Church history, particularly the great missionary movement of the dark ages that brought the gospel across the Silk Road to Mongolia and China and down into India. The missionary church that spread the gospel was the Assyrian Church.

Whatever

Isaiah 19:23 In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and Assyria will come into Egypt, and Egypt into Assyria, and the Egyptians will worship with the Assyrians.
24 In that day Israel will be the third with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing in the midst of the earth,
25 whom the LORD of hosts has blessed, saying, "Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel my inheritance."

Did you have a point to make there that I missed?

There's no dark side of the Moon really. It's all dark.

Then tear down the wall, the bleeding hearts and artists must make their stand. But I warn you, it's not easy banging your heart against some mad buggers wall.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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theFijian

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If readers of this are interested, I have placed Mark Kennedy on my ignore list as I do not find discussion with him in any way edifying, his unwarranted confrontational attitude is quite lacking in any of the fruits of the spirit.

If people care to look they will see that my initial participation in this thread was to simply ask a perfectly honest question which was not a trap of any kind. MK, clearly playing to the crowd, decided to respond with insults. no doubt he will claim this is just 'telling it like it is'.

His continued false accusations against TEs as being deluded by atheistic philosophy is patently false considering that many of the regular TEs here hold to confessional , conservative and reformed theological positions. Never mind that he wont actually substantiate these accusations.
 
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mark kennedy

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Rather pathetic Mark. You included a quote from Paul (fair enough) then a quote from the gospel according to Mark Kennedy right after it. Maybe you thought people reading it would think they were one and the same. You play fast and loose with scripture and then have the gall to accuse TEs of playing it lip-service (in your mind I'm sure that just means anyone who doesn't agree with you). I think you're beginning to believe your own lies Mark.

This is what he said, it starts with calling me pathetic and ends with calling me a liar. Of course, the TEs don't condemn or report this obvious flame but instead support his inflammatory rhetoric. This is a prime example of why I am convinced TE is not only not a Christian doctrine but an obvious attack on core Christian conviction. Whether it is espoused by a professing Christian or an atheistic materialist it is a divisive, contentious and deliberate attack on Christian orthodoxy. What happens is when they can't answer the questions or refute the arguments a flamer like theFijian comes in and derails the discussion. The purpose is to bury the substantive points and distract from the real issues.

When I get through refuting TE as a psuedo-Christian philosophy I have something even more devastating for you. I don't care who is playing the lead or comedy relief in your Darwinian theater of the mind, the truth will prevail.

They do not defend the Scriptures or the Gospel, they attack Creationists and that's all they do. In over five years I have heard the Gospel from only one of them and he had no clue what the scientific issues involved were. The rest are simple rhetoric with no other purpose then demeaning and demoralizing Christian fundamentalists and evangelicals. If they were winning, it would not be necessary and if this philosophy were Christian it wouldn't happen in the first place.
 
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shernren

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By the way, I've posted to the debate.

They do not defend the Scriptures or the Gospel, they attack Creationists and that's all they do. In over five years I have heard the Gospel from only one of them and he had no clue what the scientific issues involved were. The rest are simple rhetoric with no other purpose then demeaning and demoralizing Christian fundamentalists and evangelicals. If they were winning, it would not be necessary and if this philosophy were Christian it wouldn't happen in the first place.

Now that's an outright lie for you.

TEs do defend Scripture. In fact, they have done literally just that in this thread, where Assyrian (whom you disparaged earlier) has spent more than five pages over two or three weeks debating with yeshuasavedme, a creationist who has been championing strange doctrines with reference to the apocryphal book of Enoch which he claims is part of the canon of Scripture.

Someone comes along and claims an apocryphal book is on the same level as the recognized canon. What do the creationists do? Bring out their biblical doctrine? Show the heretic what orthodoxy looks like? No, they hide behind whatever it is they're hiding behind and never so much as poke their nose into that thread, leaving it, ironically, to the un-Christian, un-Biblical, inflammatory, atheist-on-the-inside evolutionists to defend truth and Biblical doctrine.

I want you to see the irony in this: the very people you call unbiblical are engaged in the very act of literally defending the Bible, while every single creationist on this forum (other than yeshuasavedme himself) has been unwilling to defend what (they claim) they believe in.

Who has made the greater mistake, mark?

The theistic evolutionist, or the creationist who believes in open theism?
The theistic evolutionist, or the creationist who takes the Apocrypha as inspired scripture?
The theistic evolutionist, or the creationist who is a Muslim?
The theistic evolutionist, or the Intelligent Design advocate who explicitly avoids mentioning God or the Bible so that his theories are more intellectually palatable?

You believe that evolution is the ultimate lie of the devil. Good for you! Even the demons believe that it is (if you are right), and they tremble.

Meanwhile, in the land where our Saviour once walked, taught, died and rose again, people are greeting each other "Happy New Year!" beautifully with the bright exciting flashes of gunfire, bombs and missiles, exchanged between Jews (who, as Jews, more likely than not believe that we all descended from a literal Adam who was created supernaturally) busily blowing up Palestinians and Palestinians (who, as Muslims, more likely than not believe that we all descended from a literal Adam who was created supernaturally) busily blowing up Jews.

Creationism lost the moral high ground ages ago, and frankly mark, you are not helping one bit.
 
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mark kennedy

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By the way, I've posted to the debate.
Now that's an outright lie for you.

No it's not, you don't defend the Scriptures you just attack creationists.

TEs do defend Scripture. In fact, they have done literally just that in this thread, where Assyrian (whom you disparaged earlier) has spent more than five pages over two or three weeks debating with yeshuasavedme, a creationist who has been championing strange doctrines with reference to the apocryphal book of Enoch which he claims is part of the canon of Scripture.

I'll check it out but as far as the TE view of Scripture its ambiguous at best.

Someone comes along and claims an apocryphal book is on the same level as the recognized canon. What do the creationists do? Bring out their biblical doctrine? Show the heretic what orthodoxy looks like? No, they hide behind whatever it is they're hiding behind and never so much as poke their nose into that thread, leaving it, ironically, to the un-Christian, un-Biblical, inflammatory, atheist-on-the-inside evolutionists to defend truth and Biblical doctrine.

Now who is peddling falsehood, I don't go calling people heretics. I do know the difference between a philosophy put in theological garb and the genuine article of a church doctrine. I do consider TE to be a fast and loose superficial treatment of the Scriptures but as far as it being a defense of Scripture and essential doctrine I have yet to see it.

I want you to see the irony in this: the very people you call unbiblical are engaged in the very act of literally defending the Bible, while every single creationist on this forum (other than yeshuasavedme himself) has been unwilling to defend what (they claim) they believe in.

I don't know if I would call him 'biblical' just barely aware of him.

Who has made the greater mistake, mark?

You have rejected essential doctrine based on a secular philosophy not Biblical principles.

Creationism lost the moral high ground ages ago, and frankly mark, you are not helping one bit.

There is that aire of superiority that is so much a part of the TE rhetoric. My final post is in the Formal Debate forum, enjoy...
 
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BreadAlone

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MOD HAT

Hey! Let's keep the personal pettiness and comments towards one another to ourselves, okay? We don't need that mixed in with this lively discussion. Yes, one half og you disagrees with the other half. But that doesn't mean you cannot be polite and respectful, so either learn to correspond civilly or decide not to correspond at all.

Thank you kindly . .
 
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shernren

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Phew, done.

A little note: I got tired of adding "emphasis added" tags to Bible quotes where I bolded stuff. Bibles do not use bold formatting as far as I am aware and so I consider it self-evident that emphases (where present) have been added in all Bible quotes. (Oh, what a wonderfully double-meaninged sentence!)

*potters off to calculate the Poynting vector of a helical mode of light, while staring at his optics textbook and wondering why anyone would possibly use it.*
 
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mark kennedy

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Amazing, the debate is over and the final fragments of a conclusion were as disjointed as the piecemeal evidence for human/chimpanzee common descent. From this day forward I will never engage TEs on Biblical issues since they have never taken the subject seriously. The Origins Theology forum is for all intents and purposes devoid of theology but I at least gave them the chance to try their hand at it.

Still in the spirit of open exchange I will make this offer one last time:

In spite of the fact that I have very serious problems with theistic evolution I would be willing to beat my intellectual swords into plowshears under certain conditions.
  • No more double standards, if you can have doubts about Genesis 1-11 as actual history we are allowed to be skeptical about the chimpanzee/human common ancestor.
  • The clear meaning of Paul and Moses have to be given their full weight as being foundational to creationism as a formal doctrine.
  • The difference between evolution as natural science and evolution as natural history has to be recognized and acknowledged.
  • The Historicity of Scripture as an essential element of the Gospel must be affirmed and defended academically.

Last chance, take it or leave it. I won't offer it again.
 
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mark kennedy

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*erases not-nice post*

nevermind...it's not worth it.

I'm going back to studying neuroscience...it's probably a better use of my time right now since I have an exam on Thursday.

Ok, good luck with the exam.
 
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The Barbarian

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Still in the spirit of open exchange I will make this offer one last time:

In spite of the fact that I have very serious problems with theistic evolution I would be willing to beat my intellectual swords into plowshears under certain conditions.

Personally, I don't care. A vigorous attack on my ideas is not out of bounds, so long as you don't call names or misrepresent what I write. I have gone hammer and tongs with a large number of people whom I now respect and like, largely because they were forceful in their arguments.


No more double standards, if you can have doubts about Genesis 1-11 as actual history we are allowed to be skeptical about the chimpanzee/human common ancestor.

That's the debating position, isn't it? Each of us is to support his position as best he can.
  • The clear meaning of Paul and Moses have to be given their full weight as being foundational to creationism as a formal doctrine.

Being a rather orthodox Christian, I'm not going to agree, but you're free to argue otherwise.

  • The difference between evolution as natural science and evolution as natural history has to be recognized and acknowledged.
What do you think the differences are?

  • The Historicity of Scripture as an essential element of the Gospel must be affirmed and defended academically.

That is not consistent with the views of most Christians. But it's not something that will cost you your salvation.

I will respect your intent to understand God and His word as best you can. But often, it seems I'll be disagreeing with you. Can you live with that?
 
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shernren

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From this day forward I will never engage TEs on Biblical issues since they have never taken the subject seriously. The Origins Theology forum is for all intents and purposes devoid of theology but I at least gave them the chance to try their hand at it.

Bon voyage, I don't think you'll be missed much. But you've made such pronouncements of despair before - and yet been baited back into debate some way or other. Will that happen? Only time can tell.

Indeed, Jesus Himself commanded us not to throw our pearls before dogs, and perhaps that is the command you ought to heed. If you really think we have no appreciation for Scripture, then leaving is the right thing for you to do. Go on now.

:p

But I have a right to ask what, exactly, you would consider Biblical or Scriptural. It is becoming increasingly clear to me that, to far too many creationists, Scripture isn't Scriptural. Only creationism is.

This very fact reared its head in our debate. There were two points in the debate where I canvassed especially wide ranges of Scriptural material to see what the Bible, as a whole, had to say about a particular matter.

The first was in the second half of Post 2, where I looked at the idea of communal consequences for individual sin.

The second was in the first half of Post 3, where I looked at Paul's attitude towards history and genealogy.

I hope it does not escape anybody's notice that not only did mark not respond at all to those points, he did not even quote them. The points at which I delved most heavily into Scripture are precisely the points where mark said nothing in reply. (And they were points which deal fatal damage to his ideas.)

I really doubt mark will be gone for long. But if he really does want to beat swords into plowshares (and I hope he does - blessed are the peacemakers, and I would greatly desire that he should see such blessings), here's the question I have for him:
How can you possibly say that TEs do not take the Bible seriously when, in this very debate, you utterly failed to engage points supported by wide swathes of the Bible?
 
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shernren

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Here are two quotes from just about opposite ends of the Christian spectrum.

From Robert Farrar Capon, an American Episcopal priest and author:
... No matter how many fine and fancy meanings we may be able to draw out of [Adam and Eve's] historicity, it must also have a plain meaning: somewhere along the line, some people had to have shown up at a real time and place as the first of a race of priestly beings.

I feel I am about to lose my audience. I shall give you one disclaimer. I am not at all concerned here with whether those people were a lonely he and she, or a crowd, or whether they were made in one shot or gradually pasted up over millions of years. The only point I want to make is that if you seriously intend to see history as a real web, then the web itself must have a beginning,
and that beginning must be discussed historically. No one should be exempted from the attempt to write Genesis; and no one ever is. Admittedly, neither scientists nor theologians have reporters' notes on the event, so everybody has to do the job imaginatively; but it is precisely that job that everyone has to do, scientists as well as theologians. There is no real choice about Adam and Eve. The only open question is whether we will do them, and the rest of history that follows from them, justice.

I bring this up because a great deal of solemn nonsense has been bandied about on the subject. In the interest of making a hasty accommodation between a stale biblical chronology and a half-baked theory of universal evolution, all kinds of things were said by all kinds of people. On the one hand, biblical obscurantists made a frantic attempt to salvage the chronology by sweeping scientific knowledge under the rug. On the other, modernist theologians retreated so hurriedly before the specter of evolutionary supersession that they abandoned wholesale the theology and horse sense of the Scriptures. The first have, mercifully, met the fate they deserved; but the second are still with us. They have such a fear of sounding like Genesis that they end up sounding like gibberish. They are so afraid of making Adam and Eve particular human beings that they forget that, if history is real, some particular people will have to turn out to have been Adam and Eve. In the day of judgment we may find out that they called each other Oscar and Enid and that they lived on a Norwegian fjord; but those will be only details. They themselves will have existed. And the essential historical fact about them will be not simply that our biological inheritance came from them but that
all the threads of the web began with them. It is precisely the rest of history that you lose if you unload Adam and Eve.

- Robert Farrar Capon, An Offering of Uncles [emphases in original]
He is just about as liberal as you can get without heading irrevocably down Spong's path; for example, he basically says (in the same book, or a collection including it) at one point that no Calvinist has ever made sense of Romans 9 to 11. (To those who would consider that the unpardonable sin, I can only say that no less than Luther considered James "right strawy stuff". Oh the irony.)

At the other end of the spectrum is John Stott, who certainly gives Paul and Moses their full weight, and whom nobody could possibly accuse of taking the historicity of Scripture lightly. He says in his commentary on Romans, right about Romans 5:18-21 too:
But the case with Adam and Eve is different. Scripture clearly intends us to accept their historicity as the original human pair. For the biblical genealogies trace the human race back to Adam; Jesus himself taught that ‘at the beginning the Creator “made them male and female” ’ and then instituted marriage; Paul told the Athenian philosophers that God had made every nation ‘from one man’; and in particular Paul’s carefully constructed analogy between Adam and Christ depends for its validity on the equal historicity of both. He affirmed that Adam’s disobedience led to condemnation for all, as Christ’s obedience led to justification for all (5:18).

... But surely the human fossil and skeleton record indicates that the genus homo existed hundreds of thousands of years before the New Stone Age? Yes. Homo sapiens (modern) is usually traced back to about 100,000 years ago, and homo sapiens (archaic) to about half a million years ago, homo erectus to about 1.8 million years ago, and homo habilis even to two million years ago. Moreover, homo habilis was already making stone tools in East and South Africa; homo erectus was making wooden tools as well and living in caves and camps, while homo sapiens (especially the European Stone Age sub-species Neanderthal man), although still a hunter-gatherer, was beginning to paint, carve and sculpt, and even to care for the sick and bury the dead. But were these species of homo ‘human’ in the biblical sense, created in the image of God, endowed with rational, moral and spiritual faculties which enabled them to know and love their Creator? Ancient skeletons cannot answer this question; the evidence they supply is anatomical rather than behavioural. Even signs of cultural development do not prove that those involved were authentically human, that is, God-like. The likelihood is that they were all pre-Adamic hominids, still homo sapiens and not yet homo divinus, if we may so style Adam.

Adam, then, was a special creation of God, whether God formed him literally ‘from the dust of the ground’ and then ‘breathed into his nostrils the breath of life’, or whether this is the biblical way of saying that he was created out of an already existing hominid. The vital truth we cannot surrender is that, though our bodies are related to the primates, we ourselves in our fundamental identity are related to God.

What then about those pre-Adamic hominids which had survived natural calamity and disaster (as large numbers did not), had dispersed to other continents, and were now Adam’s contemporaries? How did Adam’s special creation and subsequent fall relate to them? Derek Kidner suggests that, once it became clear that there was ‘no natural bridge from animal to man, God may have now conferred his image on Adam’s collaterals, to bring them into the same realm of being. Adam’s “federal” headship of humanity extended, if that was the case, outwards to his contemporaries as well as onwards to his offspring, and his disobedience disinherited both alike.’​

Stott, J. R. W. (2001, c1994). The message of Romans: God's good news for the world. The Bible speaks today (163-164). Leicester, England; Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press.
Here we have someone who, in the same breath, vehemently defends the historicity of Adam while accepting his biological evolution as a distinct possibility. How confusing was that?

As such it is a widely held position, and personally I would think it is a fine enough position to hold.
 
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The Barbarian

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I think Mark weakened his position by supposing evolution is contrary to the notion of Adam as real person. There is nothing in the theory that would deny we are all descended from two people God chose to found mankind.

And of course, promoting justification by faith alone undermines his stated support for the Bible as God's word:

James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

I would not have used the arguments Shernen used, but he countered Mark's assertions quite effectively.

I was surprised to see that Mark asserted that nothing was random with God. Randomness is certainly part of His creation.

Ecclesiastes 9:11 I returned and saw under the sun that—

The race is not to the swift,
Nor the battle to the strong,
Nor bread to the wise,
Nor riches to men of understanding,
Nor favor to men of skill;
But time and chance happen to them all.

As Cardinal Ratzinger writes:
According to St. Thomas Aquinas: “The effect of divine providence is not only that things should happen somehow, but that they should happen either by necessity or by contingency. Therefore, whatsoever divine providence ordains to happen infallibly and of necessity happens infallibly and of necessity; and that happens from contingency, which the divine providence conceives to happen from contingency” (Summa theologiae, I, 22,4 ad 1).
Communion and Stewardship: Report of the International Theological Commission
 
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shernren

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And of course, promoting justification by faith alone undermines his stated support for the Bible as God's word:

James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

I would disagree with your line of reasoning here, actually. The "faith" here is a different kind of faith from Paul's "faith" in Romans.

It is quite common for a word to have different meanings in different contexts. The astronomer will say "The sun rose this morning, and then the temperature rose, and then all the birds rose from the ground where they had been resting." In each case "rose" has related yet subtly different meanings.

But that's something for a different thread.

What would you have argued? I'm curious to know.
 
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mark kennedy

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Personally, I don't care. A vigorous attack on my ideas is not out of bounds, so long as you don't call names or misrepresent what I write. I have gone hammer and tongs with a large number of people whom I now respect and like, largely because they were forceful in their arguments.

I tend to agree that a strong argument doesn't diminish my ideas, it strengthens them. I just don't see pounding away at basic doctrine only to have it dismissed or otherwise slighted.


That's the debating position, isn't it? Each of us is to support his position as best he can.

Right and I don't have a problem with someone taking me to task on detailed specifics. I'm just at the point where discussing theology with a point of view that is more bent toward a secular mindset then a Biblical worldview will ever result in anything worthwhile.

Being a rather orthodox Christian, I'm not going to agree, but you're free to argue otherwise.

The Christian faith is based on a personal relationship that is part of God's wonderful work in redemptive history. I think it's important that believers affirm basic insights and doctrines or there is no basis for fellowship. This is especially true in the New Testament but the Old Testament starting with Genesis relates vital events during redemptive history that are necessarily true or false.

That's the one thing that TEs don't get about YEC, these convictions don't come from a literal reading of Genesis. It's the New Testament treatment of the Old Testament narratives as history that is at the heart of the issue.

What do you think the differences are?

Evolution in genetics is the change of alleles in populations over time, evolution as natural history is an a priori assumption of universal common ancestry that is made before the empirical evidence is considered. Blending the two in an artificial intellectual fantasy. That's one of the reasons I prefer genetics to paleontology, genetics focuses on living systems rather then dead ancestors.



That is not consistent with the views of most Christians. But it's not something that will cost you your salvation.

I strongly disagree, most Christians for instance have no problem with some kind of Intelligent Design. What I'm finally deciding to do is to reject TE as a secular philosophy that has no bearing on Church doctrine whatsoever. I don't like the idea but it's gotten to the point where I might end up treating TE as I would any secular philosophy simply because I don't have another option.

I will respect your intent to understand God and His word as best you can. But often, it seems I'll be disagreeing with you. Can you live with that?

Of course but I would expect Christians with differences to at least understand the real bases for YEC conviction and how it's inextricably linked to doctrinal issues. That is to say that if you can't accept the fact that YEC is a sound doctrinal position and why is vital, otherwise I am going to refrain from discussing doctrinal issues with a point of view I consider deliberately divisive and contentious.

Still haven't made up my mind but I'm getting there.
 
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mark kennedy

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Bon voyage, I don't think you'll be missed much. But you've made such pronouncements of despair before - and yet been baited back into debate some way or other. Will that happen? Only time can tell.

I didn't say I was leaving, what I am deciding with whether or not I will discuss doctrinal issues with people I consider to be promoting atheistic materialism in sheep's clothing. You are one of the primary reasons. I know you relish that ability to run off creationists so you can make sport of creationism unhindered but you failed to address serious doctrinal issues and did your little victory dance anyway.

Indeed, Jesus Himself commanded us not to throw our pearls before dogs, and perhaps that is the command you ought to heed. If you really think we have no appreciation for Scripture, then leaving is the right thing for you to do. Go on now.

So you do understand, that's good, that's real good.

:p

But I have a right to ask what, exactly, you would consider Biblical or Scriptural. It is becoming increasingly clear to me that, to far too many creationists, Scripture isn't Scriptural. Only creationism is.

Your ability to build a sound argument from Biblical authority is remarkably weak. I think that stems from conviction and I'm really losing patience with trying to reach people who are oblivious to the clear meaning of primary proof texts.

This very fact reared its head in our debate. There were two points in the debate where I canvassed especially wide ranges of Scriptural material to see what the Bible, as a whole, had to say about a particular matter.

The first was in the second half of Post 2, where I looked at the idea of communal consequences for individual sin.

The second was in the first half of Post 3, where I looked at Paul's attitude towards history and genealogy.

First of all the fact that sin is universal is not up to your personal opinion, they reason why was the point of doctrine being addressed. Paul was crystal clear and you simply contradicted the clear meaning of the texts. I can only conclude you either can't grasp it or don't care. I've came to the conclusion that it is the former.

Secondly I was not only clear but offered detailed specifics why Genesis is a book of generations focused specifically on history and genealogy. I have 2,000 years of Christian scholarship supporting Adam and Eve as our first parents, specially created and the cause of sin entering the human condition universally. You simply have a modernist worldview pretending to represent Biblical theism.

I hope it does not escape anybody's notice that not only did mark not respond at all to those points, he did not even quote them. The points at which I delved most heavily into Scripture are precisely the points where mark said nothing in reply. (And they were points which deal fatal damage to his ideas.)

I was through in my Biblical and theological points and addressed your dogmatic assertions, you failed to support your views and those in the Darwinian theater of the mind you are playing to will agree with you as long as you attack creationism so it doesn't matter what you say.

I really doubt mark will be gone for long. But if he really does want to beat swords into plowshares (and I hope he does - blessed are the peacemakers, and I would greatly desire that he should see such blessings), here's the question I have for him:
How can you possibly say that TEs do not take the Bible seriously when, in this very debate, you utterly failed to engage points supported by wide swathes of the Bible?

First of all notice he addresses me in the third person, that's important because it means he has abandoned the dialogue with me. I did a detailed exposition of the positive proof texts including the essential Romans passages and supported it with highly credible Christian scholarship. Then when you couldn't answer it substantively you concluded with a rambling and discounted conclusion that abandoned the Scriptures as primary authority.

I see no reason to continue to do extensive expositions of Biblical points of doctrine with someone who simply pretend the argument, defense and elaboration never happened.

I realize you have no clue what I am trying to do in this thread because you have been lulled into a false sense of security by Darwinism. I really mean it, you might not know or care what is coming next but my approach is going to change. You are the primary reason for it, I hope you like what you get.
 
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