PC-USA vote to allow ordination of Homosexuals

[Hupomone10]

Presbyterian gay ordination: Presbyterian Church votes to allow gay ordination - latimes.com

"A debate that has raged within the Presbyterian Church for more than three decades culminated Tuesday with ratification of a measure allowing the ordination of gay and lesbian ministers and lay leaders, while giving regional church bodies the ability to decide for themselves."

"With the vote of its regional organization in Minnesota, the Presbyterian Church USA became the fourth mainline Protestant church to allow gay ordination, following the Episcopal and Evangelical Lutheran churches and the United Church of Christ." (from the linked article)

The Presbyterian USA denomination is without a doubt based on Calvinist theology. There are certain things that go with that, one being that God by His own sovereign choice elects certain individuals to salvation and regenerates them through the gift of faith granted to whom He wishes.

Theological Question
How can they reconcile this decision with their theology of sovereign grace and election?

a. Have they also believed that God's sovereign choice of not only people for salvation but people for church leadership is a statement by God that this sin is not a sin?

b. Have they also given up on the doctrine of election in order to come to this decision, considering that if God would only elect those whom He granted repentance to turn from homosexuality, then the doctrine would no longer fit with a denomination allowing membership and leadership that are confirmed homosexuals with no intention to repent?

c. In summary, would God elect a person to salvation who at the very outset of their Christian walk had no intention of repenting or seeking freedom from this abomination in God's eyes.

d. Is it just a matter of time before Baptist denominations and associations go this same direction?


This is not to be a Calvinist-bashing or Calvinist theology bashing thread. Any doing this other than offering observations, the Moderators have my complete endorsement to delete the posts. As the list in the above quote verifies, this liberal trend crosses the boundaries of both Arminianism and Calvinism.

I just want to know if anyone knows how they rationalize it or if they are giving up their theological roots also.

It is something that should be addressed, because it is not a direction that we as Baptists ever want to go.

Thanks,
H.

 

[Hammster]

PCUSA gave up their theological roots along time ago. That's why most reformed Presbyterians belong to the PCA instead.

 

[sealacamp]

I just want to know if anyone knows how they rationalize it or if they are giving up their theological roots also.

I can't imagine how anyone that follows Christ can rationalize any errant behavior. Since that is the case each one of us should remain humble and surrendered before our God since none of us are right. But to stand in the Lords face with total rebellion and say that God is wrong and we are right is just crazy to me and I can't see how anyone can do that with a clear conscience to God.

Sealacamp

 

[kenrapoza]

PCUSA gave up their theological roots along time ago. That's why most reformed Presbyterians belong to the PCA instead.

Right - I'm a PCA guy and I agree with Chris. The PC(USA) isn't Reformed in the same way that the PCA, or OPC, or ARP, or RPCNA, or URCNA are; just like the ELCA isn't Lutheran in the same way that the LCMS or WELS are, and the ABC isn't Baptist in the same way that the SBC is. Obviously I'm referring to liberal denominations that still retain the nomenclature and peripheral aspects of their heritage but embrace a fundamentally different modernist theology.

We shouldn't be surprised when liberal denominations do liberal things. We also shouldn't be surprised when denominations that don't value their theological heritage enter into altar-and-pulpit fellowship with other denominations whose theologies are incompatible with theirs.

By the grace of God (and the grace of God alone) may we remain faithful to the Scriptures. May we not think that we are too holy to fall into some of the same traps. May we continue to believe and teach the Law in all its uncompromising fierceness and the gospel in all it's pure sweetness. May our witness always be a gospel light to the nations and may Christ always be exalted as our consummate Prophet, our great high Priest and our great returning King.

 

[Hupomone10]

Thanks for all your responses thus far.

I found myself in a quandary trying to figure it out. With all the discussions I've been involved in recently around here there is one thing for sure; and that is that the Calvinists I know are very passionate about the Word and don't compromise it. That's why it seemed such a paradox.

The answers hit the nail on the head, IMHO. It's a matter of going down the liberal road. Once you let the Word go as your authority, it's no big deal to turn your back on the very theology that was the backbone of your denomination.

Bill Gothard, founder of the Institute in Basic Youth Conflicts (now the Institute in Basic Life Principles) often said "a man's morality dictates his theology."

I guess when it comes to these areas, that is very true.

 

[Pete_Martinez]

Coming soon to a baptist church near you...

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Advocates for the rights of persons whose lives are characterized by homosexual acts are being very successful in gaining ground because they dishonestly substitute the euphemism “gay” for homosexual” and speak or write about the “sexual orientation” of homosexuals rather than about the homosexual acts that they perform. They falsely claim that they are asking for “gays and lesbians” to have the same right to marry that heterosexuals have, but the truth is that people who are participating in homosexuals acts and relationships have the very same and equal right to marry a person of the opposite sex that heterosexuals have. What they really want is to have their homosexual affairs accepted as “marriages,” but that is impossible without making a mockery of the sanctity of marriage. Heterosexuals do not have the right, in most states, to marry people of the same sex, and it is not fair for homosexuals to have that right that heterosexuals do not have. Pedophiles and pederastrists do not have the right to a perverted marriage just because of their sexual perversion; people given to zoophilia and inappropriate behavior with animals do not have the right to a perverted marriage just because of their sexual perversion; and homosexuals do not have the right to a perverted marriage just because of their sexual perversion.

Homosexuals are not only sexual perverts; they are also liars who are willfully and deliberately deceiving the public by substituting the word “gay” for homosexual” and speaking or talking about the “sexual orientation” of homosexuals rather than about the homosexual acts that they perform. Do Baptists want to have lying sexual perverts in their pulpits willfully and deliberately deceiving them? If they do not, they had better stop using the euphemism “gay” instead of the clinical term “homosexual” and face up to the fact that homosexuals who are committing homosexual acts are lying sexual perverts attempting to deceive the public into believing that they are simply asking for the same rights that everyone else has.

For a few years, I had a neighbor who was a homosexual pastor who kept a 19-year-old boy that he used as a sex toy. When the pastor committed suicide by taking an overdose of heroin, the media portrayed him as a loving pastor who ministered to hurting people even though the apartment where he committed suicide was in a red-light district famous for homosexual prostitution. The reality was that he was a lying homosexual pervert and heroin addict taking sexual advantage of a very confused 19-year-old boy and getting more homosexual sex on the side from homosexual prostitutes.

Homosexuality is a disease of the mind that grows worse and worse as one continues to commit the sin of homosexual acts, leading to greater and greater spiritual and moral depravity. Young homosexuals are often not yet so severely depraved that the gospel cannot bring them to salvation, but they need a loving pastor who is filled with the Holy Spirit rather than lust for flesh of the same sex. Do Baptists want to have lying sexual perverts in their pulpits lusting for flesh of the same sex? If they do not, they had better stop using the euphemism “gay” instead of the clinical term “homosexual” and face up to the fact that homosexuals who are committing homosexual acts are lying sexual perverts lusting for flesh of the same sex.

 

[Hupomone10]

Your words are bold, but I agree with you. It's been a while since I thought about the outright lying and deception even of themselves that is going on with that agenda.

One powerful point you made was that they already have the same rights hetero's have to marry someone of the opposite sex. And the converse, I am restricted, just as they are, from marrying someone of the same sex; so the supposed "rights" we don't have are equal as well.

Another point, the point that it often gets worse as the person gets older. The law of diminishing returns goes into effect anytime we live by our feelings in any area instead of living by principles and living by faith.One thing I discovered a few years ago with alcoholism that I didn't know years ago was that this condition gets worse as the person gets older. It progresses, such that the person who was an alcoholic at a young adult age and overcame it, if he returns to drink in mid-life he often finds it impossible to just start drinking normally as he thinks he should be able to do. Once hooked, it actually becomes easier to become hooked again at a later age, at least with some.

Blessings,
H.

 

[DeaconDean]

Adolph Hitler was right about one thing...

If you say it loud enough, if you say it long enough, people will believe it.

Does this move suprise anybody?

This actually began 2 years ago here in Charlotte, No. Carolina.

I submit:

Will gay Presbyterians lead?

Charlotte-area elders, pastors weigh in today on whether noncelibate gays and lesbians can hold leadership posts.

By Tim Funk

Link

BTW, the vote passed, and this was from 2009.

So catch up world, it has already happened.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Jim the Puritan]

For a few years, I had a neighbor who was a homosexual pastor who kept a 19-year-old boy that he used as a sex toy. When the pastor committed suicide by taking an overdose of heroin, the media portrayed him as a loving pastor who ministered to hurting people even though the apartment where he committed suicide was in a red-light district famous for homosexual prostitution. The reality was that he was a lying homosexual pervert and heroin addict taking sexual advantage of a very confused 19-year-old boy and getting more homosexual sex on the side from homosexual prostitutes.

This reminds me of an episode here. Several years ago, a liberal church decided they were going to show their endorsement of homosexuality by hiring a gay pastor. Once the guy was installed, all you would ever hear about in that church was "gay" this, and "gay" that. Every Sunday, plus the new gay pastor decided to make the church his soapbox for advancing the gay agenda in the local media.

People going to the church got tired of the gay today, gay everyday slant of the church. Many left to find other liberal churches that weren't so in your face about homosexuality. And then the most dramatic episode occurred, which was the church was set on fire.

It was immediately ascribed to "homophobia." It eventually came out the fire was set by a former homosexual partner of the pastor who was upset he had been dumped by the pastor.

This being the last straw, gay pastor was discharged from the church. But the damage was done. Church has not been fully repaired, and sits largely empty. They get maybe 10 people on a Sunday, and have no fulltime pastor.

 

[kenrapoza]

PG and Jim - those are some crazy situations. What a reproach some quarters of "the church" have become. Fortunately, those types of scandals aren't typical of even the liberal churches.

 

[Jim the Puritan]

I'm not so sure of that at least in terms of general sexual immorality in liberal churches.

I remember in college (35 years ago to date me) the pastor of the local Congregationalist church (UCC) was having sexual affairs with women in the congregation. He was also the college chaplain. Who knows what was going on with students the guy was interacting with.

And I think of my friend, a Catholic, who recounted to me her experience when she was at a wedding officiated by an Episcopal priest. At the reception, she got tired and the priest offered to give her a ride back to the hotel. On the way he propositioned her, claiming he was in an "open marriage" and it was ok. Being a good Catholic, she was shocked and refused. She found out later the wife of the priest separately went off with one of the guests and had sex with him.

 

[SonOfTheWest]

I believe this is the tip of the iceberg. These sort of changes within the Church I think is going to continue.

 

[Hupomone10]

2 Samuel 23:9-10
"Then the men of Israel retreated, but he (Eleazar) stood his ground and struck down the Philistines till his hand grew tired and froze to the sword. The LORD brought about a great victory that day."
(even though everyone else retreats, you must stand)

We will continue to stand for the truth and for the Lord, though none stand with us.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

I just wanted to say, I believe that the PC(USA) has technically allowed the ordination of homosexual clergy for quite a while now. Individual presbyteries have to vote to allow it for their individual regions, though, and I'm not sure that all that many actually have. I don't imagine tha homosexual ordination will come to conservative Baptist churches any time soon (maybe some of the more liberal churches, but not the SBC, Free Will Baptists, etc.). The problem I see is that Christian views on homosexuality will likely become increasingly marginalized in the next few decades, to the extent that, within ten years or so, we may have a court case like the one in Britain that barred a Christian couple from fostering children because of their view on homosexuality. It's possible that, if enough churches move away from the Christian view of the issue, conservative churches could become marginalized enough to be labeled as "hate groups", although that seems less likely, since evangelical churches are growing while more liberal churches tend to lose members.

 

[Basil the Great]

There is a definite trend here. Some retired United Methodist Bishops recently released a letter which basically favored a change in that denomination's policy on gay ordination. I wonder if eventually some of the more liberal Evangelical groups, like the American Baptist Church, say within 10-25 years, could also go along with the ordination of gays?

 

[supersoldier71]

I sometimes worry that sound Christian thinking and practice will be marginalized to the extent that the true Body of Christ will be labelled a "hate group". In fact, it makes sense for the prince of lies to hang that tag on the Church. I'm comforted by the fact that if we obey our Lord and Savior, He will deliver us from those enemies. Love the Lord [our] God with all our hearts and all our mind and all our strength, (and if we love Him, we obey His commandments), love our neighbors as ourself (by meeting their earthly needs yes, but more importantly, preaching the Gospel).

If we obey His commandments, then the Lord will take care of the rest.

Also, I think Christians who feel that the PCUSA is in error, we should be praying earnestly and diligently that the Lord will show them their error and give them the spirit of repentance. Only the Holy Spirit can change hearts, and I believe that their are some well-meaning but misguided individuals who are being led astray, and my sense is that ONLY God can put things right.

Good night and God bless.

 

[kenrapoza]

Isn't the American Baptist Church already considered to be mainline? From what I recall, they are one of the "Seven Sisters" of the mainline denominations.

 

[Basil the Great]

Isn't the American Baptist Church already considered to be mainline? From what I recall, they are one of the "Seven Sisters" of the mainline denominations.

You might just be right about that. I will check into it.

Yes indeed! You are correct. According to what I just read, the 7 Mainline Sister Churches are: American Baptist, Congregational/United Church of Christ, Disciples of Christ, Episcopal, Lutheran, Methodist and Presbyterian.

 

[BloodyRachel]

I can't believe this plague is still spreading.