Paul's understanding of Clean and Unclean food

[RDKirk]

I think you and a lot of mainstream Christians who have been raised in a religious culture that says all animals are food,

Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. Genesis 9

The Torah was given specifically to the Israelites explicitly to make them different from everyone else.

Everyone else was still going by Genesis 9.

Gentiles were never under Torah dietary rules.

Paul did not place them under Torah dietary rules.

 

[RDKirk]

No, some when they fast eat no meat and only vegetables. Some eat nothing at all and only water

Vegetarianism is not fasting.

Jains, for instance, are not fasting. Vegetarianism has never been fasting, except in some modern contexts where people pretend to be doing something they're not really doing.

That's just "play fasting."

 

[Ken Rank]

The bottom line is this... God created certain animals to be used for food and certain animals were not created as food, they had a different function. God hasn't changed and there is nothing indicating He changed His mind and what He created certain animals for. Yeshua gave his life to reverse the curse of sin and death, he didn't die so we could eat pork bacon. Eat it if you want... but I don't see where that is based on a biblical mandate. I see where it comes out of Christian tradition based on a 1700 year old decree that tells Christians not to eat the food of the Jews.

 

[Ken Rank]

The Torah was given specifically to the Israelites explicitly to make them different from everyone else.

I have you on ignore but saw this when I realized another user was responding to somebody I couldn't see, I was curious who.

Your claim is wrong and I stopped here with quoting you because if you are wrong here, the rest falls apart anyway. The Torah was given to the Israelites AND the non-Israelites (seen in your bible as strangers or foreigners) at Sinai. It is very plain... regarding the non-Israelites, they were given the Torah, told to assimilate into the tribes they traveled with, and were to be treated as if native body by the Israelites.

Today RD... a gentile is defined as "any believer who is not Jewish." But historically (you can see this in the 1828 Websters) a gentile was, "a pagan, a heathen, anyone who is not a Jew or Christian." We are not pagans and believers, a "gentile Christian" is an oxy-moron but we don't see that because we have changed the meaning of that word before we were born and we are now born into a definition that is not historically accurate. You can't be a pagan and a person of faith.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Vegetarianism is not fasting.

Jains, for instance, are not fasting. Vegetarianism has never been fasting, except in some modern contexts where people pretend to be doing something they're not really doing.

That's just "play fasting."

I never said vegetarianism is fasting. I said eating no meat on certain days is. What is Jains?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I have you on ignore but saw this when I realized another user was responding to somebody I couldn't see, I was curious who.

Your claim is wrong and I stopped here with quoting you because if you are wrong here, the rest falls apart anyway. The Torah was given to the Israelites AND the non-Israelites (seen in your bible as strangers or foreigners) at Sinai. It is very plain... regarding the non-Israelites, they were given the Torah, told to assimilate into the tribes they traveled with, and were to be treated as if native body by the Israelites.

Today RD... a gentile is defined as "any believer who is not Jewish." But historically (you can see this in the 1828 Websters) a gentile was, "a pagan, a heathen, anyone who is not a Jew or Christian." We are not pagans and believers, a "gentile Christian" is an oxy-moron but we don't see that because we have changed the meaning of that word before we were born and we are now born into a definition that is not historically accurate. You can't be a pagan and a person of faith.

they were "grafted in" ;-)

 

[Ken Rank]

they were "grafted in" ;-)

That is exactly what they were and we see the same thing in the NT but we create an atmosphere around it that makes it seem all new in the NT. It isn't... God does not change.

 

[RDKirk]

I have you on ignore

I guess there's no point responding to Ken Rank, although I can't recall ever having insulted him.

At least not intentionally.

 

[RDKirk]

I never said vegetarianism is fasting. I said eating no meat on certain days is. What is Jains?

That's still not fasting. That's just play fasting.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

That's still not fasting. That's just play fasting.

No it isn't. It was also possible to fast for a specific number of hours (Ta'an. 11b–12a). On some occasions, the fast was not a total one, but people refrained only from meat, wine, anointment with oil, and other pleasures (Cowley, Aramaic, no. 30; Dan. 10:3; Test. Patr., Reu. 1:10; Judah 15:4; iv Ezra 9:24; as well as generally in talmudic literature and in that of the Middle Ages).

 

[DamianWarS]

God is not really a rock, Damian... but He is called a rock. Jesus really isn't a lamb (he has no fur, 4 legs, or a tail) but he is called that. God uses symbols to teach and in this case, Peter got it.....

and the vision also shows us the dietary laws are not really anything to do with food either and are symbols themselves for Isreal being the chosen nation, or as you rationalize it, God is not really a rock, although he is called one. as I said, you can't have it both ways. if one is a symbol the root of the other is also a symbol (but really there is no "other" and it describes the same thing)

 

[Ken Rank]

and the vision also shows us the dietary laws are not really anything to do with food either and are symbols themselves for Isreal being the chosen nation, or as you rationalize it, God is not really a rock, although he is called one. as I said, you can't have it both ways. if one is a symbol the root of the other is also a symbol (but really there is no "other" and it describes the same thing)

There is no supporting verse that you can use to come away with that conclusion. You are raised in a Christian culture that believes God used Jesus to make all animals food. But no verse says such a thing, instead it says that God doesn't change and that some animals are not food. So God isn't a rock anymore than the animals used were now called clean. God did not call them clean Damian.

What do you do then about Peter... who told God "NO!" and rebelled against Him because He wouldn't eat? And do you have an example of ANY of the disciples eating ANYTHING that was once called unclean ANYWHERE in the bible? No... you just have a bias that you were born into, a lens through which you read a vision that the receiver himself said was about men, and make it about something else.

Again... eat whatever you want and don't feel the need to try to change me. I won't eat a bottom dwelling poop eater, it isn't food.

Peace.
Ken

 

[Andrewn]

There is no supporting verse that you can use to come away with that conclusion. You are raised in a Christian culture that believes God used Jesus to make all animals food. But no verse says such a thing, instead it says that God doesn't change and that some animals are not food.

Ge 9:1 God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them, “Be fruitful, multiply, and replenish the earth. 2 The fear of you and the dread of you will be on every animal of the earth, and on every bird of the sky. Everything that moves along the ground, and all the fish of the sea, are delivered into your hand. 3 Every moving thing that lives will be food for you. As I gave you the green herb, I have given everything to you. 4 But flesh with its life, that is, its blood, you shall not eat.

The Lord's Apostles repeated God's orders to the Christians:

Ac 15:24 Because we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, ‘You must be circumcised and keep the law,’ to whom we gave no commandment; 25 it seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose out men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who themselves will also tell you the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay no greater burden on you than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality, from which if you keep yourselves, it will be well with you. Farewell.”

The Apostles themselves were living like the Gentiles:

Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they didn’t walk uprightly according to the truth of the Good News, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live as the Gentiles do, and not as the Jews do, why do you compel the Gentiles to live as the Jews do? 15 “We, being Jews by nature, and not Gentile sinners, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.

This apparently settled the issue for several centuries until in modern times some groups returned to advocate for a Saturday Sabbath and for Kosher regulations.

If catfish disgust you, by all means follow your conscience. I don't eat catfish, either. But I eat shrimp and lobster. I don't eat the meat of dogs, cats, rats, squirrels, or monkeys but in many cultures they do. John the Baptist ate locusts and I don't think these were considered clean. I eat beaf but in India they don't.

Many people today are against eating beef bec of pollution. In the Middle East, they considered pigs unclean (for good reasons) but the Greeks ate pigs and they introduced pork when they governed the Middle East. The Apostle Paul said all food is clean. But if a certain item offends your conscience, don't eat it.

 

[Ken Rank]

Ge 9:1 God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them, “Be fruitful, multiply, and replenish the earth. 2 The fear of you and the dread of you will be on every animal of the earth, and on every bird of the sky. Everything that moves along the ground, and all the fish of the sea, are delivered into your hand. 3 Every moving thing that lives will be food for you. As I gave you the green herb, I have given everything to you. 4 But flesh with its life, that is, its blood, you shall not eat.

The Lord's Apostles repeated God's orders to the Christians:

Ac 15:24 Because we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, ‘You must be circumcised and keep the law,’ to whom we gave no commandment; 25 it seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose out men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who themselves will also tell you the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay no greater burden on you than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality, from which if you keep yourselves, it will be well with you. Farewell.”

The Apostles themselves were living like the Gentiles:

Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they didn’t walk uprightly according to the truth of the Good News, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live as the Gentiles do, and not as the Jews do, why do you compel the Gentiles to live as the Jews do? 15 “We, being Jews by nature, and not Gentile sinners, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.

This apparently settled the issue for several centuries until in modern times some groups returned to advocate for a Saturday Sabbath and for Kosher regulations.

If catfish disgust you, by all means follow your conscience. I don't eat catfish, either. But I eat shrimp and lobster. I don't eat the meat of dogs, cats, rats, squirrels, or monkeys but in many cultures they do. John the Baptist ate locusts and I don't think these were considered clean. I eat beaf but in India they don't.

Many people today are against eating beef bec of pollution. In the Middle East, they considered pigs unclean (for good reasons) but the Greeks did and they introduced pork when they governed the Middle East. The Apostle Paul said all food is clean. But if a certain item offends your conscience, don't eat it.

Do you really want a biblical response? Because I can take your post apart in three different ways and prove that you are reading certain scripture through a born into lens that you don't even know is there.

And locusts are clean.

 

[Ken Rank]

I guess there's no point responding to Ken Rank, although I can't recall ever having insulted him.

At least not intentionally.

I don't put anyone on ignore unless there is name calling. If we don't agree, I am fine. Like in this case... if you want to eat swine, that is between you and God, not you and I. I will respect your right to choose if you respect my right to choose. Since neither of us see this as a salvation issue, does it really matter? Mutual respect. But when we get to the name calling point, I tune out. I am too old to deal with it anymore.

I did take the ignore off and hope we can have some good discussions somewhere down the road.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[DamianWarS]

There is no supporting verse that you can use to come away with that conclusion.

the vision itself reveals to us the law is not about food it is about who God has chosen. the very law itself is symbolic so if you want to quote the Joesph dreams again with the skinny cows eating the fat we have a base symbol and that symbol feeds into a greater meaning. As your logic has already affirmed we are not looking for literal skinny cows eating fat cows because that would be silly since they are clearly symbols that mean something greater, we look to that which is greater not the surface symbol. This dream Peter has reveals to us that the dietary laws are in fact symbols not unlike the skinny cows eating the fat. And it is that which they point to that is important and what we really should be looking at, so this dream shows us that the dietary laws are not about food at all they are about who God has chosen.

as I have said, you can't have it both ways. if it is a symbol the entire thing is a symbol if it is literal, the entire thing is literal... both point to a release from the dietary laws so you can pick either one. but you can't say it is only a symbol for Peter's dream in a vacuum but not a symbol for root.

What do you do then about Peter... who told God "NO!" and rebelled against Him because He wouldn't eat?

how many times did Peter say no? 3 times right. does this sound familiar with Peter? how many times did Jesus ask if he loved him? How many times did he deny Christ? this is a theme with Peter and this theme is not void just because you put it in all caps and add an exclamation mark to it. Peter seems to have a habit of learning things through this theme of repetition and it might be a nod back to the denial so that Peter would immediately understand its impact.

And do you have an example of ANY of the disciples eating ANYTHING that was once called unclean ANYWHERE in the bible?

you demand a literal phrase that says "Peter ate a pig" and use the absence of this to justify your cause. Peter is accused by Paul saying "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?" does this mean Peter ate pork? no, because it's not specific but the text is specific about eating with gentiles and we can responsibly infer from this he was eating as per the customs of the gentiles. I would argue any inference that would oppose this would be quite irresponsible and neglectful of what is quite clear in the text... but I guess this is my corrupted upbringing talking right? The thing with saying that last line is it proves nothing... I can accuse you of the same but do you feel any more convinced? does it contribute to the conversation? do you even know my upbringing that you can claim this?

No... you just have a bias that you were born into, a lens through which you read a vision that the receiver himself said was about men, and make it about something else.

do you have any different bias? the text is clear, the dietary restrictions are symbolic to who God calls and if this is true it is just not true in the 1st century but when the law was penned. the meaning has never changed nor has God and it's a strawman to claim this. if you believe there was a time where ethnic Jews were chosen to be God's children and there was a time when that was released to all peoples then this represents the same "change", so if you can wrap your head around that then it should be no problem for this. If God remains the same through this release he remains the same through this reveal of the vision which of course is of the same release.

this isn't about what is food or isn't food, and it never was.

 

[Andrewn]

Do you really want a biblical response?

Sure, but you will need to show me how kosher laws specifically apply to Christians.

And locusts are clean.

I'm not an expert on kosher laws and could be wrong about this. But the Bible says:

Deu 14:19 All winged insects are unclean for you; they may not be eaten.

Since neither of us see this as a salvation issue, does it really matter?

Does it really matter?

 

[Ken Rank]

Sure, but you will need to show me how kosher laws specifically apply to Christians.

Not possible... there are no "kosher laws" in the bible as "kosher" is a rabbinic creation. That aside, the covenant is made with the House of Judah and the House of Israel (Jer. 31/Heb 8). There is no mention of gentiles there, no mention of Christians. When the New Jerusalem comes down, there are 12 gates, 1 for each of the 12 tribes of Israel. There is no gate of the gentiles nor is there a Christian gate. Perhaps this is why Paul wrote that you WERE a gentile (pagan) and WERE an alien of the Commonwealth of Israel but are NOW (through Christ's blood he said) a "fellow citizen." So then... who are you? A gentile? No... a gentile is a pagan, a heathen, anyone who is not a Jew or Christian (Webster's 1828). This is a word whose meaning has changed in the last 70-80 years. Today, that word means, "any believer who is not Jewish." So, using the historical definition, which is in line with the underlying Hebrew or Greek, a gentile Christian is an oxy-moron.

Does it really matter?

Depends on you. Are we to walk out our walk according to the tradition and paradigm we are born into? Or, are we to walk out our walk according to how our Lord walked? Is he our model or have all the rules changed? You decide... really, it doesn't matter to me what you do, it's between you and God.

 

[Andrewn]

When the New Jerusalem comes down, there are 12 gates, 1 for each of the 12 tribes of Israel. There is no gate of the gentiles nor is there a Christian gate. Perhaps this is why Paul wrote that you WERE a gentile (pagan) and WERE an alien of the Commonwealth of Israel but are NOW (through Christ's blood he said) a "fellow citizen."

True, we Christians have been grafted into the tree of Israel. We're no longer Gentiles.

Are we to walk out our walk according to the tradition and paradigm we are born into? Or, are we to walk out our walk according to how our Lord walked? Is he our model or have all the rules changed? You decide...

I understand your logic and see its validity. Perhaps I should start by going on a Mediterranean diet.

 

[DamianWarS]

I'm not an expert on kosher laws and could be wrong about this. But the Bible says:

Deu 14:19 All winged insects are unclean for you; they may not be eaten.

Lev 11:20-23
All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be regarded as unclean by you. There are, however, some flying insects that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground. Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper. But all other flying insects that have four legs you are to regard as unclean.