Paul's Heart for the Lost

[Bond-servant of Christ]

27 “King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you do believe.” 28. Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You almost persuade me to become a Christian.” 29. And Paul said, “I would to God that not only you, but also all who hear me today, might become both almost and altogether such as I am, except for these chains.” (Acts 26)

It is very clear from Paul’s own words, that, when Agrippa exclaimed that Paul was trying to persuade him to become a believer; that Paul responds by saying, that he did not only desire that the King was saved, but ALL who heard him preach the Gospel Message, were saved like him, except for his imprisonment! Any person who reads this with an honest, open mind, will clearly see from Paul’s words, that the Lord is very much concerned for the salvation of every human being, otherwise Paul here speaks that which is no true.

Not only here, but, in Romans 10:1, Paul’s prayer is for the salvation of the whole Jewish nation:

“Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.”

If, as some teach, that Jesus died only for the sins of an “elect” few, then it would be another error in Paul’s theology, to pray in such a way! This is not just wishful thinking, but declares the very heart of the God of the Bible!

In the next chapter of Romans, where Paul is speaking of the Jews and Gentiles, which is basically saying, all human beings, that he says:

“30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!”

The Greek is very clear here, in both places, where we have “ALL”, it is written, “tous pantas”, literally “the all”, which is here for the entire human race. ALL the world are “concluded” (sugkleiō), to be, by the Lord, “disobedient” sinners. Yet, God is able to show mercy to those who will “repent and believe”. “might have mercy”, is “eleese”, is in the “subjunctive” mood, which is “conditional”. This does not teach that God WILL have mercy on the entire human race, but that He MIGHT. These passages show that the Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ, in His shedding His blood on the cross, was for the whole human race, and NOT for any “elect” few, which is a grave error taught by some. This is NOT “universal salvation”, which is another grave error, but, the “universal provision” in the death of Jesus Christ, for the human race, which is only applied to those who “repent and believe”, as the Lord Himself taught in Mark 1:15.

 

[windwhistler]

This is opening a can of worms, I'm afraid. I agree with you. But if, when I see the Lord, he tells me I'm wrong, then without a doubt God is always right. The sad thing is that it separates brothers and sisters in Christ. If we are true believers and Christians according to the Bible's full definition, our Lord must be grieved at the division when he wants us to be united even if we have different opinions. I am sorry if offend any brother or sister with this post.

 

[Bond-servant of Christ]

I am sorry if offend any brother or sister with this post.

why be sorry for what the Holy Bible clearly teaches? If the Truth offends some, then so be it. The Bible says of the preaching of the Gospel, "but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles" (1 Corinthians 1:23). We must never be guilty of "watering-down" the Gospel!

 

[Carl Emerson]

While i agree with your position I would like to ask if you believe the Grace to repent is a gift?

 

[Bond-servant of Christ]

While i agree with your position I would like to ask if you believe the Grace to repent is a gift?

actually, all of salvation is a gift from the Lord. If it were not for the Lord, no sinner would ever desire, of themselves, to seek the Lord and want to repent and believe. It is the working of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the sinner, that is the start of conviction that can lead to eternal life.

 

[windwhistler]

why be sorry for what the Holy Bible clearly teaches? If the Truth offends some, then so be it. The Bible says of the preaching of the Gospel, "but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles" (1 Corinthians 1:23). We must never be guilty of "watering-down" the Gospel!

I see scriptures that could support the other position and can understand why there are different opinions. There are many good theologians who support the other position. I hope no one believes the opposing position actually prevents salvation. I do not believe that either position is the same as a stumbling block to salvation or waters down the gospel.

Others may disagree, but I myself don't believe such differences have to turn Christians against each other. It all comes down to salvation by Jesus paying for our sin and giving us his righteousness. Knowing his love more deeply and loving him more deeply will grow in the heart of a true Christian. I believe Jesus will teach his more of his way as we seek and are open to him. Thus I hope expressing my opinion will not cause offense and disunity.

 

[Bond-servant of Christ]

I myself don't believe such differences have to turn Christians against each other

what do you mean? Just because I don't believe in "election" the way a Reformed person does, does NOT mean that they are my enemy, or that I love them less as a fellow believer! My best friend for almost 40 years is a 5 point Calvinist, and we have agreed to disagree on these issues many years ago.

 

[Brightfame52]

27 “King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you do believe.” 28. Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You almost persuade me to become a Christian.” 29. And Paul said, “I would to God that not only you, but also all who hear me today, might become both almost and altogether such as I am, except for these chains.” (Acts 26)

It is very clear from Paul’s own words, that, when Agrippa exclaimed that Paul was trying to persuade him to become a believer; that Paul responds by saying, that he did not only desire that the King was saved, but ALL who heard him preach the Gospel Message, were saved like him, except for his imprisonment! Any person who reads this with an honest, open mind, will clearly see from Paul’s words, that the Lord is very much concerned for the salvation of every human being, otherwise Paul here speaks that which is no true.

Not only here, but, in Romans 10:1, Paul’s prayer is for the salvation of the whole Jewish nation:

“Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.”

If, as some teach, that Jesus died only for the sins of an “elect” few, then it would be another error in Paul’s theology, to pray in such a way! This is not just wishful thinking, but declares the very heart of the God of the Bible!

In the next chapter of Romans, where Paul is speaking of the Jews and Gentiles, which is basically saying, all human beings, that he says:

“30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!”

The Greek is very clear here, in both places, where we have “ALL”, it is written, “tous pantas”, literally “the all”, which is here for the entire human race. ALL the world are “concluded” (sugkleiō), to be, by the Lord, “disobedient” sinners. Yet, God is able to show mercy to those who will “repent and believe”. “might have mercy”, is “eleese”, is in the “subjunctive” mood, which is “conditional”. This does not teach that God WILL have mercy on the entire human race, but that He MIGHT. These passages show that the Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ, in His shedding His blood on the cross, was for the whole human race, and NOT for any “elect” few, which is a grave error taught by some. This is NOT “universal salvation”, which is another grave error, but, the “universal provision” in the death of Jesus Christ, for the human race, which is only applied to those who “repent and believe”, as the Lord Himself taught in Mark 1:15.

But Paul also knew that only a remnant shall be saved. He knew also that some had been created vessels of Wrath and God is fitting them for destruction. And he knew that all that were of Israel wasn't Israel that God is going to save Rom 9:6!

 

[fhansen]

actually, all of salvation is a gift from the Lord. If it were not for the Lord, no sinner would ever desire, of themselves, to seek the Lord and want to repent and believe. It is the working of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the sinner, that is the start of conviction that can lead to eternal life.

Exactly. And the ancient churches consistently taught that man can still resist that grace. Man cannot possibly turn to God and say “yes” without God’s help, without grace drawing and moving him, and yet man can still refuse that gift and say “no”, either at the beginning or at any point down the road in his walk with God.

Anyway, to know the heart of God is to know that He desires all to be saved, and yet will never force that issue. To believe that God strictly predetermines some to election is to put the cart ahead of the horse, like attempting to sort of look backwards from the perspective of a person now in heaven and state that he was always numbered among the elect and of course that would be true.

But from our perspective now in this life we don’t have absolute knowledge of anyone’s eternal destiny, including our own, so the point regarding election is a rather moot and redundant theological truth: those whose names are written in the Book of Life are numbered among the elect and will, of course, be saved.

 

[5thKingdom]

27 “King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you do believe.” 28. Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You almost persuade me to become a Christian.” 29. And Paul said, “I would to God that not only you, but also all who hear me today, might become both almost and altogether such as I am, except for these chains.” (Acts 26)

It is very clear from Paul’s own words, that, when Agrippa exclaimed that Paul was trying to persuade him to become a believer; that Paul responds by saying, that he did not only desire that the King was saved, but ALL who heard him preach the Gospel Message, were saved like him, except for his imprisonment! Any person who reads this with an honest, open mind, will clearly see from Paul’s words, that the Lord is very much concerned for the salvation of every human being, otherwise Paul here speaks that which is no true.

Not only here, but, in Romans 10:1, Paul’s prayer is for the salvation of the whole Jewish nation:

“Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.”

If, as some teach, that Jesus died only for the sins of an “elect” few, then it would be another error in Paul’s theology, to pray in such a way! This is not just wishful thinking, but declares the very heart of the God of the Bible!

In the next chapter of Romans, where Paul is speaking of the Jews and Gentiles, which is basically saying, all human beings, that he says:

“30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!”

The Greek is very clear here, in both places, where we have “ALL”, it is written, “tous pantas”, literally “the all”, which is here for the entire human race. ALL the world are “concluded” (sugkleiō), to be, by the Lord, “disobedient” sinners. Yet, God is able to show mercy to those who will “repent and believe”. “might have mercy”, is “eleese”, is in the “subjunctive” mood, which is “conditional”. This does not teach that God WILL have mercy on the entire human race, but that He MIGHT. These passages show that the Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ, in His shedding His blood on the cross, was for the whole human race, and NOT for any “elect” few, which is a grave error taught by some. This is NOT “universal salvation”, which is another grave error, but, the “universal provision” in the death of Jesus Christ, for the human race, which is only applied to those who “repent and believe”, as the Lord Himself taught in Mark 1:15.

It is one thing for Paul (or any of us) to desire to see the
salvation of EVERYONE we preach to... however, it is another
thing to suggest that Jesus did not come to save "His People"
from their sins - but to save the "children of Satan" also.


Joh_17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world,
but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Joh 17:20
Neither pray I for these [Jewish sheep] alone,
but for them [Gentile sheep] also which shall believe on me
through their word;


To think that Jesus PAID for the sins of everyone ever born
is to say His Atonement was ineffective and also to say that He
was a LIAR when He taught that some men were NEVER MEANT
to "be converted" or "have their sins forgiven". [Mark 4:12]


Are you ACTUALLY preaching that Jesus PAID for the sins
of people who were NEVER MEANT to "have their sins forgiven"?
Really?

Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

Exactly. And the ancient churches consistently taught that man can still resist that grace.

But, of course, that is not Biblical or true.
It is the teaching of SOME ancient churches... but not others.
Just like SOME ancient churches sold indulgences - and others didn't
Just like SOME modern churches contain pedophiles - others don't.

Jim

 

[fhansen]

But, of course, that is not Biblical or true.

It's actually both: biblical and true. Additionally the more one knows God-His nature and will-the more one understands His intentions for man's will.

It is the teaching of SOME ancient churches... but not others.

I've never encountered any of the ancient churches that teach otherwise. Man is always being drawn to God, but can always reject His overtures.

Just like SOME ancient churches sold indulgences - and others didn't

I know of no ancient church that taught the sale of indulgences. That practice, driven by human greed and ignorance, was a matter of not heeding Church teachings.

Just like SOME modern churches contain pedophiles - others don't.

They all may-truth be known-but not by choice or protocol but mainly by weakness in failing to administer protocol-and the unwillingness to simply say "no". Anyway, sin is rampant in human affairs if you haven't noticed, even if Christians, and especially leaders and teachers, should be held to a much higher account. But the Pentecostal church I used to attend was completely torn apart by the pastor's infidelity, after telling us that he never wanted to sin after being born again long before. Anyway, it can require time and maturity to come to really and truthfully recognize our own failings-and that the church is actually a group of sinners, admitted ones ideally, always in need of the divine physician. That knowledge tends to help ease us down off our high horses.

 

[5thKingdom]

And the ancient churches consistently taught that man can still resist that grace.

But, of course, that is not Biblical or true.
It is the teaching of SOME ancient churches... but not others.
Just like SOME ancient churches sold indulgences - and others didn't
Just like SOME modern churches contain pedophiles - others don't.

It's actually both: biblical and true. Additionally the more one knows God-His nature and will-the more one understands His intentions for man's will.

Wait a minute buddy.
On another thread you just admitted you do not even know
if you are a "child of God" (saved "wheat") or not because
you do not have an "indwelling" Holy Spirit that teaches
you Biblical Truth and "witnesses" with your spirit that
you are a "child of God".


In fact you MOCKED the idea
(which Jesus and the Apostles taught)


Therefore... you have NO BUSINESS talking about knowing
God's nature or His Will or His Intentions because natural man
cannot understand these things... they THINK they understand
(unsaved "tares" THINK they understand Gospel Truth, but they
are so wrong that Jesus says He "never knew you")

I've never encountered any of the ancient churches that teach otherwise. Man is always being drawn to God, but can always reject His overtures.

Well, gladly, your experiences do not determine truth.
Jesus taught ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come" to Him
and He would lose NONE of them. Jesus did not teach that
SOME MEN the Father gives Him will be lost by rejecting
what God intends (the very thought is asinine)


The Apostles taught the same.
The earliest churches (established by the Apostles) taught the same.
These are the MOST ancient churches... long before the RCC
was established.


Secondly, the Apostles taught that NO MAN "seeks God" until
AFTER their regeneration and Jesus taught that some men were
NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or "understand" or "be converted"
or "have their sins forgiven"... so it is a LIE FROM HELL to say
"man is always being drawn to God".


Moreover, the Gospel says God CREATED some men to be
"vessels of mercy" (saved) and others to be "vessels of wrath"
(unsaved). To pretend men CREATED to be "vessels of mercy"
can REJECT God's Will is heresy... just as pretending that men
CREATED to be "vessels of wrath" can REJECT God's Will and
become saved is a man-made heresy not found in the Bible.


You embarrass yourself suggesting such nonsense and pretending
"ancient churches" taught such heresy... some did (like the RCC)
but there have ALWAYS been faithful churches (with real saints)
teaching Gospel Truth.


Do not assume that TRUTH is limited to what YOU understand
or what you have encountered.

I know of no ancient church that taught the sale of indulgences.

First, lets specify WHAT an "ancient church" means.
In the first case it means all of the churches started by the
Apostles (mostly home-churches) which were independent.
However, some people pretend the Roman Catholic Church
(which did not exist for several hundreds of years later)
is THE "ancient church".


Secondly... why do you PRETEND that you are not aware
of the Roman Catholic Church selling indulgences? Is it for
the same reason you pretend their "priests" were not only
corrupt but also have a (well established) history of being
pedophiles? In other words, is it because of the shamful
things your church has done throughout history?

But the Pentecostal church I used to attend was completely torn apart by the pastor's infidelity...

And WHY would it surprise you that a church teaching a false
"works gospel" would not show the "fruit" of being real saints?


I have told you this before... maybe now you can hear me.
Jesus told us we can know false Christians by their "fruits".
This does not only mean good behavior (since many Jews,
Moslems, Buddhist, Hindus, Atheists, etc show good behavior)
It MORE IMPORTANTLY means the "fruit" of preaching the
TRUE GOSPEL. Why is this so hard for you to hear?


Real saints (saved "wheat") understand and preach Gospel Truth.
That is their "fruit"... being TAUGHT by the "indwelling" Holy Spirit.
False "Christians" (unsaved "tares" in the church) preach false doctrines and heresy (like "works gospels") that is their "fruit"
since they are "children of Satan".


When you go to a church teaching false doctrines/gospels...
then KNOW they are showing the "fruit" of NOT being
real saints (saved "wheat"). Of course you can only
discern this if you are "indwelt" with the Holy Spirit,
and you already admitted that you are not....
you even MOCKED the idea.


Jim

 

[fhansen]

But, of course, that is not Biblical or true.
It is the teaching of SOME ancient churches... but not others.
Just like SOME ancient churches sold indulgences - and others didn't
Just like SOME modern churches contain pedophiles - others don't.

This has been addressed and you're still resisting the truth about man and the nature of sin. No church escapes it’s presence.

Wait a minute buddy.
On another thread you just admitted you do not even know
if you are a "child of God" (saved "wheat") or not because
you do not have an "indwelling" Holy Spirit that teaches
you Biblical Truth and "witnesses" with your spirit that
you are a "child of God".


In fact you MOCKED the idea
(which Jesus and the Apostles taught)

We can know God and we can taste of the heavenly gift but even that doesn’t mean we’ll continue to appreciate that knowledge and gift. No one can predict their own perseverance, which is exactly why scripture implores us to persevere.

Therefore... you have NO BUSINESS talking about knowing
God's nature or His Will or His Intentions because natural man
cannot understand these things... they THINK they understand
(unsaved "tares" THINK they understand Gospel Truth, but they
are so wrong that Jesus says He "never knew you")

Now careful there or you’ll be condemned by your own words since you’ve demonstrated that you don’t know Him or His will very well. And I’m not being mean or sarcastic there; I really see that in you.

Well, gladly, your experiences do not determine truth.
Jesus taught ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come" to Him
and He would lose NONE of them. Jesus did not teach that
SOME MEN the Father gives Him will be lost by rejecting
what God intends (the very thought is asinine)


The Apostles taught the same.
The earliest churches (established by the Apostles) taught the same.
These are the MOST ancient churches... long before the RCC
was established.

The ancient churches all taught that man can compromise and forfeit their state of justice, and therefore their salvation. Get on board here, buddy, study first if you wish to make such claims.

First, lets specify WHAT an "ancient church" means.
In the first case it means all of the churches started by the
Apostles (mostly home-churches) which were independent.
However, some people pretend the Roman Catholic Church
(which did not exist for several hundreds of years later)
is THE "ancient church".

More of the same. You’ve bought into convenient pop-mythology without studying the history. You can’t squeeze Jesus into your preconceived box based on novel theology; He won’t fit.

Secondly... why do you PRETEND that you are not aware
of the Roman Catholic Church selling indulgences? Is it for
the same reason you pretend their "priests" were not only
corrupt but also have a (well established) history of being
pedophiles? In other words, is it because of the shamful
things your church has done throughout history?

Well you certainly don’t pretend to read what I wrote. In any case this is a continuation of the same drivel. If you were brave enough to read, to study the truth instead of that which tickles your own ears, then you would know that, in this case, the church never TAUGHT that selling indulgences was ok. That was to ignore, to not heed, to override, church teachings, which is why the church put a stop to the practice. The same goes for pedophilia, or homosexuality for that matter, directly opposed to actual church teachings. As I mentioned in another thread, start with the canons of the 2nd Council of Orange in order to get an idea for yourself about something the church actually teaches. The church doesn’t pretend to be perfect, only that the teachings she received from the beginning are so. It actually teaches that no one, including the Pope, is impeccable, while you seem to be suggesting that you, OTOH, are.

And WHY would it surprise you that a church teaching a false
"works gospel" would not show the "fruit" of being real saints?

They didn’t teach a “works gospel”; they taught much as you do, and that the Catholic Church was in darkness, incidentally.

I have told you this before... maybe now you can hear me.
Jesus told us we can know false Christians by their "fruits".
This does not only mean good behavior (since many Jews,
Moslems, Buddhist, Hindus, Atheists, etc show good behavior)
It MORE IMPORTANTLY means the "fruit" of preaching the
TRUE GOSPEL. Why is this so hard for you to hear?

Well, you better hope you have some other fruit then.

Real saints (saved "wheat") understand and preach Gospel Truth.
That is their "fruit"... being TAUGHT by the "indwelling" Holy Spirit.
False "Christians" (unsaved "tares" in the church) preach false doctrines and heresy (like "works gospels") that is their "fruit"
since they are "children of Satan".


When you go to a church teaching false doctrines/gospels...
then KNOW they are showing the "fruit" of NOT being
real saints (saved "wheat"). Of course you can only
discern this if you are "indwelt" with the Holy Spirit,
and you already admitted that you are not....
you even MOCKED the idea.

Again, lots of words, very little real understanding. I’m getting disappointed in you, J. I havent totally lost hope but there may come a time when I’ll have to shake the dust off, you know.

BTW, the church of Christ, and there can only be one, you know, has produced gobs of true prophets, real saints, those who took the gospel message and ran with it even while many others, including leaders, may’ve sat comfortably back in selfish lifestyles producing little or no fruit or worse, actually blaspheming the name of God by their actions. But the real saints produced fruit, sharing the truth to a lost and dying and hopeless and unjust world about a God of order and justice and love and the desire to give eternal life to those who come to love as He does. And they also shared their own love by donating countless hours of time and quantities of money to help those in need, feeding the hungry and clothing the naked. The church built hospitals and orphanages and developed the educational system including the upper level, university system, and promoted art and science and scholarship and the pursuit of excellence in general. She taught us to love our enemies rather than vanquishing them, promoting an altruism that had arguably never been seen in history before. The church presents a very big and popular target to take aim at, but she’s the ancestor of all Christians, without which Christianity would hardly be a footnote in history by now. She assembled the canon of the Bible, hammered out the doctrine of the Trinity, and the nicene creed, as examples. But, I’m sure you see yourself as numbered among a remnant elite, as all false prophets maintain about themselves.

 

[5thKingdom]

This has been addressed and you're still resisting the truth about man and the nature of sin. No church escapes it’s presence.

We can know God and we can taste of the heavenly gift but even that doesn’t mean we’ll continue to appreciate that knowledge and gift. No one can predict their own perseverance, which is exactly why scripture implores us to persevere.

Now careful there or you’ll be condemned by your own words since you’ve demonstrated that you don’t know Him or His will very well. And I’m not being mean or sarcastic there; I really see that in you.

The ancient churches all taught that man can compromise and forfeit their state of justice, and therefore their salvation. Get on board here, buddy, study first if you wish to make such claims.

More of the same. You’ve bought into convenient pop-mythology without studying the history. You can’t squeeze Jesus into your preconceived box based on novel theology; He won’t fit.

Well you certainly don’t pretend to read what I wrote. In any case this is a continuation of the same drivel. If you were brave enough to read, to study the truth instead of that which tickles your own ears, then you would know that, in this case, the church never TAUGHT that selling indulgences was ok. That was to ignore, to not heed, to override, church teachings, which is why the church put a stop to the practice. The same goes for pedophilia, or homosexuality for that matter, directly opposed to actual church teachings. As I mentioned in another thread, start with the canons of the 2nd Council of Orange in order to get an idea for yourself about something the church actually teaches. The church doesn’t pretend to be perfect, only that the teachings she received from the beginning are so. It actually teaches that no one, including the Pope, is impeccable, while you seem to be suggesting that you, OTOH, are.

They didn’t teach a “works gospel”; they taught much as you do, and that the Catholic Church was in darkness, incidentally.

Well, you better hope you have some other fruit then.

Again, lots of words, very little real understanding. I’m getting disappointed in you, J. I havent totally lost hope but there may come a time when I’ll have to shake the dust off, you know.

BTW, the church of Christ, and there can only be one, you know, has produced gobs of true prophets, real saints, those who took the gospel message and ran with it even while many others, including leaders, may’ve sat comfortably back in selfish lifestyles producing little or no fruit or worse, actually blaspheming the name of God by their actions. But the real saints produced fruit, sharing the truth to a lost and dying and hopeless and unjust world about a God of order and justice and love and the desire to give eternal life to those who come to love as He does. And they also shared their own love by donating countless hours of time and quantities of money to help those in need, feeding the hungry and clothing the naked. The church built hospitals and orphanages and developed the educational system including the upper level, university system, and promoted art and science and scholarship and the pursuit of excellence in general. She taught us to love our enemies rather than vanquishing them, promoting an altruism that had arguably never been seen in history before. The church presents a very big and popular target to take aim at, but she’s the ancestor of all Christians, without which Christianity would hardly be a footnote in history by now. She assembled the canon of the Bible, hammered out the doctrine of the Trinity, and the nicene creed, as examples. But, I’m sure you see yourself as numbered among a remnant elite, as all false prophets maintain about themselves.

I don't find anything in your post worth responding to.
You have your synergistic "gospel" and reject Biblical Truth
(like the fact JESUS said NONE will be lost) so we will just have
to wait for the resurrection to see you is following the True Gospel
and who is following heresy - knowing the Bible PROMISES that
no heretic can enter into the "Kingdom of Heaven" [Gal 5:20].
In the end you can be certain God will not be MOCKED by the
preaching of heresy in the church... and, yes, Jesus taught
thereare TWO (2) churches, not one like you pretend.

One temporal church with "wheat and tares" and one eternal
church with only the "wheat".

Jim

 

[fhansen]

I don't find anything in your post worth responding to.
You have your synergistic "gospel" and reject Biblical Truth
(like the fact JESUS said NONE will be lost) so we will just have
to wait for the resurrection to see you is following the True Gospel
and who is following heresy - knowing the Bible PROMISES that
no heretic can enter into the "Kingdom of Heaven" [Gal 5:20].
In the end you can be certain God will not be MOCKED by the
preaching of heresy in the church... and, yes, Jesus taught
thereare TWO (2) churches, not one like you pretend.

One temporal church with "wheat and tares" and one eternal
church with only the "wheat".

Jim

Alright Jim. Hopefully it hasn't been a totally worthless exchange for either one of us-I always learn a thing or two anyway-and hopefully we'll both make it, in spite of any monergism lurking around here , and be able to compare notes then! Personally I think there'll be some surprises for everyone.

 

[5thKingdom]

Personally I think there'll be some surprises for everyone.

That is your problem, you think your personal "feelings"
can establish some Biblical Truth...but they cannot.

(1) The Bible PROMISES those with the "indwelling" Holy Spirit
KNOW they are the "children of God"... so there will be NO surprise
for them.

(2) How ever the Bible also PROMISES that many "Christians"
are just unsaved "tares" sown by Satan and destined to the same
eternal torment... so you are telling a HALF-TRUTH because there
will certainly be a surprise for "Christian's" following heresy.

Since NO HERETIC can enter into the "Kingdom of God" [Gal 5:20],
no matter how sincerely they thought Jesus was their Lord
[Mat 7:21-23]

Jim

 

[fhansen]

That is your problem, you think your personal "feelings"
can establish some Biblical Truth...but they cannot.

I didn't say it was a feeling, but a reasoned thought, based on the experience of life in this world complete with its human weaknesses and limitations, and on discussing bible interpretations with sincere people, many of which are quite plausible while completely contradicting someone else's quite plausible interpretation. So your "Biblical Truth" can still really be only human opinion, relying on man as it were rather than God. But keep at it, eventually the Truth will have its way as we continue to seek it and one of the first truths to be found is that we didn't really know as much as we thought after all in our role of slayer of all those evil false gospels out there that contradict our own. It's really a matter of getting honest with ourselves-and recognizing that pride is often the real motivation behind our zeal. You have faith though, so you're certainly in the right ballpark.

 

[5thKingdom]

I didn't say it was a feeling, but a reasoned thought...

Yes, our "thoughts" always seem "reasoned" to us.
However, there is only ONE Biblical Truth (one True Gospel)
and the only measure of that Truth is harmony of ALL RELATED
Scriptures. Including the Scriptures that say (a) the Last Saints
"shall understand" Biblical mysteries never known to any previous
saint [Dan 12:8-10] and Last Saints "shall see ALL these things"
[Mat 24:15,33] pertaining to prophecies in the Great Tribulation
"Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1-13].


So, it is simply not BIBLICAL for you to assume that all interpretations
are equally valid because you cannot find HARMONY with all related
passages. And it simp;y does not matter whether you call it some
"reasoned thoughts" or I call it your "feelings" because, in each case
I am presenting passages which YOU cannot refute (passages that
contradict your feelings/reasoned thought) and DESTROY your
"gospel"... while I have yet to see you offer any Scripture that does
not fit within my theological "system", or Gospel.


Finally, while you WANT to pretend that all "gospels" are equally valid,
I will remind you again, what I already told you several times before,
(a) the Bible PROMISES that all heretics (that would be people who
preach false gospels, or "another Gospel") are "accursed" and they
"shall not enter into the Kingdom of God" [Gal 5:20].


So your "feeling" or "reasoned thought" that people who are teaching
false "gospels" (heresy) are NOT clearly showing "fruit" of being
either "babes in Christ", needing much correction, or being unsaved
"tares" which were sown into the church by Satan.. is nothing close
to "reasoned thought" at all... IF the ONLY measure of Biblical Truth is
harmony of all related verses - which your "reasoned thought" clearly
contradicts.



So YOUR "measure" of feelings/thoughts being equally valid, or even
possible on essential doctrines, is (a) exactly the OPPOSITE of what
the Bible says and (b) is the very definition of what "heresy" means
and (c) intentionally ignores what Jesus PROMISED as He taught
that some men are GIVEN understanding of the True Gospel while
other men were NEVER MEANT to ever "perceive" or "understand"
the Gospel, or be ever "be converted" or "have their sins forgiven"
(become saved) and that reality ALONE destroys your "gospel"
and all of your pretending of "reasoned thought". [Mark 4:11-12]

So your "Biblical Truth" can still really be only human opinion, relying on man as it were rather than God.

No, as I have shown you before, the Bible PROMISES the Truth
CAN BE FOUND (as God "reveals" the Gospel in a progressive
manner) by harmonizing ALL RELATED Scriptures.


It is a "illogical thought" for you to pretend that all "gospels" can be
equally valid when the BIBLE PROMISES the exact opposite. Again,
(a) I have provide you with numerous Scriptures that contradict your
synergistic heresy... and you have not presented a single passage
that does not agree with my Gospel... and (b) once again, we are
PROMISED that all heretics (all those preaching false "gospels"
"shall not enter into the Kingdom of God". If that's true (and it is)
then the notion that all peoples "feelings" or "reasoned thoughts" are
to be considered equally valid is, in itself, an absolute contradiction
of what the BIBLE PROMISES about the one True Gospel.

as we continue to seek it and one of the first truths to be found is that we didn't really know as much as we thought after all in our role of slayer of all those evil false gospels out there that contradict our own.

Another example of you inserting your "feelings" or "thoughts"
into the True Gospel of the Bible. You cannot have it both ways,
either the Bible is correct when it PROMISES the True Gospel can
be found (by the real saints) by harmonizing all related Scripture...
or YOUR NOTION that Truth cannot be found and, therefore,
we can only consider everyone's opinion as equally valid is true.
Both cannot be true. I hope even you agree on this point.


I know (that you know) that the later option is nonsensical and
not Biblical... even though you believe it BECAUSE you have never
been able to find harmony of ALL RELATED Scripture (Biblical Truth).
You see CONTRADICTIONS in what Scripture teaches on essential
doctrines (like monergism and synergism) where the Bible promises
real saints will NOT see those contradictions because ALL RELATED
passages will harmonize with their understanding of the True Gospel.


I invite you to (again) TRY to offer ONE VERSE in the Bible that
contradicts my understanding of the Gospel. You cannot.
While I can easily show contradictions in your "thoughts".


Please do not assume that Biblical Truth is limited to what YOU
have been able to understand (that's nonsensical) and please
do not pretend the Gospel Truth CANNOT BE FOUND by real
saints, as that contradicts Scripture -OR- that heretics (all those
teaching heresy) will be able to enter into the Kingdom of God,
again, that contradicts Scripture.

It's really a matter of getting honest with ourselves-and recognizing that pride is often the real motivation behind our zeal.

No, that is just the "feelings" or "reasoned thoughts" of those who
have NOT been able to harmonize ALL RELATED passages... so they
ASSUME Truth cannot be found and all "interpretations" must be
considered to have equal validity.


Again, if we are REALLY honest with ourselves we will SUBMIT
to what the Bible promises about (a) the understanding of the
Last Saints and (b) the True Gospel can be found through the
harmony of all related Scriptures - which those following some
form of synergistic heresy CANNOT do, as the Bible PROMISES
that some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved and (c) that
the Bible is not pretending when it PROMISES that all heretics
(those preaching a false gospels - however sincere they are)
"shall not enter the Kingdom of God".


You see... the "fruit" of a real saint is to reject all theologies that
contradict Scripture (we must have harmony of ALL related verses).
So, when people (like you) are willing to reject or intentionally ignore
Scripture that contradicts your false "gospel" (like the fact that some
men were NEVER MEANT to be saved) and you pretend that all
"interpretations" can be equally valid... you are only PROVING the
exact opposite of what you argue (pretend) above... while you also
reject and intentionally ignore what the Bible PROMISES will happen
to all those preaching a false "gospel" (heresy).


Jim

 

[fhansen]

Yes, our "thoughts" always seem "reasoned" to us.

Right, "us", whoever us are. Anyway, everyone uses reason and experience in this life, along with revelation and grace, to come to their conclusions. That's why God doesn't bother giving revelation and grace to animals-they don't have the ability or faculties to garner wisdom from any of it. Some people however, still use all of this to lesser avail, and end up speaking out well above their paygrade, while others have greater understanding-and humility as well. And I never even insinuated that all gospels or biblical interpretations are equal, definitely not your own. And folks don't just plain agree on the meaning of Scripture in many, many areas-so you're back to your gnosticism.