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For example.
The gospels teach, the way we judge others, we will be judged.
Does this apply to unbelievers, believers, or both?
James also teaches this, so only unbelievers?
I find if it can be applied and there is good fruit, it's for believers.
The teachings of the Bible apply to all people, whether they're saved or not. Not judging others is a universal precept.
1 Corinthians 5:12 comes to mind.The teachings of the Bible apply to all people, whether they're saved or not.
The teachings of the Bible apply to all people, whether they're saved or not. Not judging others is a universal precept.
RDKirk said:I wouldn't quite agree. The precepts of how a Christian should walk in The Way only applies to Christians. The Body of Christ is only the Body of Christ.
Not only are they irrelevant to an unbeliever (because the unbeliever is condemned by his unbelief, regardless how he lives), but Romans tells us that an unbeliever cannot live a Christian life anyway.
1 Corinthians 5:12 comes to mind.
I wouldn't quite agree. The precepts of how a Christian should walk in The Way only applies to Christians. The Body of Christ is only the Body of Christ.
Not only are they irrelevant to an unbeliever (because the unbeliever is condemned by his unbelief, regardless how he lives), but Romans tells us that an unbeliever cannot live a Christian life anyway.
You wrote that the precepts of how a Christian should walk in The Way only applies to Christians. So those who aren't Christians can behave in any way that they want? That makes no sense. Paul even writes about this situation in Romans...
Romans 2:14-15, " (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)" NIV
Paul is really giving us the "you will know them by their fruits" message from a different direction.
Those people spoken of in Romans 2 are "Christian" for all God's intents and purposes--they still have the law written on their hearts, as Paul says explicitly--even if they were not physically circumcised into the law. Otherwise, they would not "do by nature things required by the law" because that would not be their nature.
Actually, I believe in his own head Paul was speaking specifically of those gentile Christians right there in the Roman congregation. Those gentile Roman Christians were uncircumcised and thus did not "have the law" physically, but had the law written upon their hearts and displayed it by their fruit. I certainly don't think Paul was talking about pagans in general.
There are still those people who do not have the law as their nature.
Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. -- Romans 8
If you argue that pagans are also under the requirements of the law, then you are arguing that God requires them to do something that He knows they cannot do.
The OT law applies to everyone who has not been "born again", regardless of their natural origin.
God requires everyone to obey His OT law, but of course that is impossible for every single person. "This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."
Are you saying that God requires everyone to be circumcised? To observe the sabbath? To wear long forelocks?
What is sin is the same, for unbelievers and for believers.
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law."
Is that clear enough?
1 Corinthians 5:12 comes to mind.
Not the way the church teaches people to teach. Judging is automatic. The passage selected non-chalantly rebuking the way they live their lives, totally judging.There is a world of difference between teaching and judging.
Not the way the church teaches people to teach. Judging is automatic. The passage selected non-chalantly rebuking the way they live their lives, totally judging.
Making a distinction when there isn't one, is kinda wrong.
Okay so here's a question I've been wondering for a while. In several places in the bible (Romans 4:5) (Titus 6) (Ephesians 2)...etc Paul has fought for the case that we are ultimately saved by our faith and not by our works. Yet in James 2 James seems to be stating the opposite while quoting Paul. Now I've heard this explained several different ways. One way was that James was talking about our justification by men is by works and that our justification from God is by faith. Another explanation that I've heard is that James was saying that a true faith would have works and those who have faith but don't have works aren't saved. But this explanation was refuted by Jesus himself when he said that not a single believer would be lost in John 6:37-40. And the entire bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure (John 10). The last explanation that I've heard was that James was saying exactly what he seemed to be saying. That we are justified by works and not by faith. To me this seems to be what James was saying so... Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?
This is the part where I get officially bored with the conversation, I can't even remember what it was about. Thanks, I'll release the memory completely and take hold of whatever the future holds.I agree that making a distinction when there isn't one, is kinda wrong, so why are you doing just that?
Yes, both Paul and James are right. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) No contradiction. Perfect harmony.Both St. Paul and St. James are right, and there is no contradiction between their writings. Most Sola Fide Protestants will agree that faith produces works, so those works are the fruit of a living faith, and in that sense they reconcile Sola Fide with “Faith without works is dead.” Or one can adopt a more nuanced view and accept that faith and works are both aspects of our cooperation with God by which He saves those of us who desire it.
Who is right? Paul or James? Or am I missing something here?
Both St. Paul and St. James are right, and there is no contradiction between their writings. Most Sola Fide Protestants will agree that faith produces works, so those works are the fruit of a living faith, and in that sense they reconcile Sola Fide with “Faith without works is dead.” Or one can adopt a more nuanced view and accept that faith and works are both aspects of our cooperation with God by which He saves those of us who desire it.
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