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If you're so dismissive of the argument, blow it out of the water, instead of blowing it away. Give it a death blow with convincing arguments, with Scripture, if the Scripture references are difficult to identify in the arguments.That’s your argument? Lol
Okay. Fair enough. Guess I remembered Eusebius incorrectly.Because the Epistle of James is part of the antilegomena. Eusebius actually says the same:
"Among the disputed writings, which are nevertheless recognized by many, are extant the so-called epistle of James and that of Jude, also the second epistle of Peter, and those that are called second and third of John, whether they belong to the evangelist or to another person of the same name." - Eusebius, Church History, Book III, 25:3
The Antilegomena includes Hebrews, James, Jude, 2 Peter, 2 & 3 John, and the Apocalypse of John. As well as certain books which aren't recognized in the Canon today: 1 Clement, the Shepherd, Epistle of Barnabas, and the Didache. Eusebius calls these rejected (Book III, 25:4) but they are mentioned as Antilegomena in the the writings of the other fathers, and the Muratorian Fragment, and are also included in Codex Sinaiticus.
-CryptoLutheran
Let's understand the situation. God's people are in distress. God sends us to bring them out of oppression. To reach safety, they have to cross a desert. Moses realised he needed something to convince Israel to come out of Egypt. God made him complete, equipped him to be able to bring her out. This is what we call grace, gifting.We're actually saved by grace, not really faith. It's through faith.
We're justified by faith. And I believe that there's two types of justification:
1) Justification before God (as in Abraham) which we obtain through Christ (Paul) and
2) Justification before men (which is what I believe James is referring to).
Men judge our dedication towards God based on our actions. And if we truly love God, then we will want to do things that will please Him which will manifest themselves in Christian "works". This is not a salvation issue, but practical James is telling us that somethings wrong if our "faith" does not manifest itself in works. So those who said that both James and Paul are correct are right. No contradiction, as usual, just misunderstood..
You didn't even respond to my post but went into a whole nother thing, so I don't think that you want to respond to my post.If you're so dismissive of the argument, blow it out of the water, instead of blowing it away. Give it a death blow with convincing arguments, with Scripture, if the Scripture references are difficult to identify in the arguments.
Why would you expect that New Covenant gifts of grace are comparable to the Old Covenant's freeing of God's chosen people? And establishing them back into the promised land God promised to them?Let's understand the situation. God's people are in distress. God sends us to bring them out of oppression. To reach safety, they have to cross a desert. Moses realised he needed something to convince Israel to come out of Egypt. God made him complete, equipped him to be able to bring her out. This is what we call grace, gifting.
How does manifesting good works to men match up with this gifting? I mean how do those works help in gathering?
Paul said the events of the Exodus were recorded for our enlightment.Why would you expect that New Covenant gifts of grace are comparable to the Old Covenant's freeing of God's chosen people? And establishing them back into the promised land God promised to them?
This is just an odd and incorrect comparison. Comparison is to compare two things similiar, not directly different.
How have your calling to works been like Moses? Maybe their is something in your answer
So?Paul said the events of the Exodus were recorded for our enlightment.
Jesus said he never came to heal people and feed the poor, social work. In fact He was irritated that He had to keep showing proof that God was able to save, free people from wasting their lives gathering and protecting earthly treasure.
How did God give proof? He made the water and food scarce and then provided. Now the people could forget about these things, because they would be added to them. They had to concentrate on being the promise made to Abraham: blessings to the world. How? By freeing THEM from chasing after earthly treasure. Repenting from futile activity.
You will find the exact same pattern in the ministry of Jesus.
We have to continue in this Way.
God wants His sons and daughters to bring souls out of laboring for riches that perishes.So?
The question you asked the other poster is what works did they do that are like Moses.
I'm still not getting your point here.
How does Moses or what happened in the Old Testament and Old Covenant have to do with us being saved by faith and your expecting works like Moses did?
Seems to me that you have no basis for the comment that you made even after I asked for clarification.
There's a balance there, we are a city on a hill that cannot be hid and we shouldn't put our lamp under a bushel. At the same time we should not be sounding a trumpet before us or performing our good deeds to be seen of men. In that culture the slaves were treated no better then pack mules, I think the poor James and Paul are talking about are slaves. The book of Philemon is about a slave named Onesimus, that slave is now considered a saint by the Eastern Orthodox. He had ran away from his master Philemon, Paul sends him back to Philemon with the letter that bears his name.We're actually saved by grace, not really faith. It's through faith.
We're justified by faith. And I believe that there's two types of justification:
1) Justification before God (as in Abraham) which we obtain through Christ (Paul) and
2) Justification before men (which is what I believe James is referring to).
Men judge our dedication towards God based on our actions. And if we truly love God, then we will want to do things that will please Him which will manifest themselves in Christian "works". This is not a salvation issue, but practical James is telling us that somethings wrong if our "faith" does not manifest itself in works. So those who said that both James and Paul are correct are right. No contradiction, as usual, just misunderstood..
Ok. I see where you are with this.God wants His sons and daughters to bring souls out of laboring for riches that perishes.
When your pastor asks you to take part in an evangelism campaign, ask him the same question Moses asked God: "Why should anyone listen to my message?"
Don't forget, God gave Moses the proof that He was WITH Moses, that He could take them into the right place, become blessings to the world, work for treasure in Heaven.
What Adam was created for.
The point is that you can be in the right place, in Christ, only if His commands abide in you.
IOW, good works don't get you into heaven. Good works get you into Christ. That's a huge topic. This is just the start of a deep study.
did the body of Adam have LIFE before YHVH breathed into Him LIFE ?Good works don't get anyone into Christ. We have access into Christ and His grace by faith. Romans 5:2, Romans 4:1-8, Titus 3:4-7, Romans 11:5-6, etc.
I'm not sure if I fully understand your point here but I'll try and respond. We are saved by grace, through faith. However, we are also justified (made righteous in Gods eyes) through faith through the righteousness of Christ. This is what Paul was talking about. James, on the other hand is referring to justification before men which is not a salvation issue per se.There's a balance there, we are a city on a hill that cannot be hid and we shouldn't put our lamp under a bushel. At the same time we should not be sounding a trumpet before us or performing our good deeds to be seen of men. In that culture the slaves were treated no better then pack mules, I think the poor James and Paul are talking about are slaves. The book of Philemon is about a slave named Onesimus, that slave is now considered a saint by the Eastern Orthodox. He had ran away from his master Philemon, Paul sends him back to Philemon with the letter that bears his name.
That's what both Paul (1 Cor. 11) and James (James 2) are looking at, believers are to build one another up in their faith. From that lowly station this man rose to be Bishop of Ephesus. In the church the least of us can become the greatest, and Jesus teaches how you treat the least of these 'my brethren' is how you treat him (Matt. 25:40).
Grace and peace,
Mark
I'm not sure if I fully understand your point here but I'll try and respond. We are saved by grace, through faith. However, we are also justified (made righteous in Gods eyes) through faith through the righteousness of Christ. This is what Paul was talking about. James, on the other hand is referring to justification before men which is not a salvation issue per se.
Now some might say that justification before men (being made righteous in the eyes of men) is not important, and that it's only important in the eyes of God but in fact although certainly not as important, it does have great significance to us the reason being (which is what James is revealing to us) once a believer gets saved, our actions (works) becomes that believers testimony to the unsaved world.
You see, it's our actions as believers which become a "demonstration" of our faith to unbelievers as well as our dedication to God which could result in a positive impact on them and could ultimately result in their eventual conversion. As I said no contradiction between Paul and James, actually they're complementary to one another. It's our actions (works) which is how we prove our faith to mankind in general.
Wisdom is vindicated by her children and grace is known by it's fruit. We are saved for good works, not by them. God is glorified by these good deeds, not the least of which is how we treat one another. If you do it to be seen of men you forfeit the praise that comes from the Father. If we do our good deeds openly God is glorified and we share in the joy that comes from grace.James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?
18 . . .Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
As for bragging about what we do for God, you're right we shouldn't do that. We should do these things quietly, as when we do the kind of "Christian works" that's pleasing to God, we are basically glorifying Him, not looking for any credit or gain as a result of doing those things. It should always be God who gets the glory, and we are not to be looking to glorify ourselves.
did the body of Adam have LIFE before YHVH breathed into Him LIFE ?
What is written? (not what do I think)What do you think? And how does your answer relate to the question at hand?
As I have mentioned before, there is a pattern in the Exodus that bears remembering.Good works don't get anyone into Christ. We have access into Christ and His grace by faith. Romans 5:2, Romans 4:1-8, Titus 3:4-7, Romans 11:5-6, etc.
What is written? (not what do I think)
What else is written
similar in GOD'S WORD about a body without breath, or a body without life ?
This is one inescapable truth recorded in God's Word about faith. (without works).
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