Der Alter, I have no wish to cross swords with you. But in no way am I a newbie either, who needs 'educating'.
I got saved 17 years ago, was baptised by the Holy Spirit 6 months later, spent many years attending Pentecostal and Messianic churches, and then over a year as a church Pastor and street evangelist. I've also written a book about Paul, although there are no plans to publish it yet. After 8 years of intensive study, I'm still finding new things to add. So I do know my stuff.
You may not need educating but I believe that you have developed set of assumptions/presuppositions which color your understanding. You got saved 17 years ago? Triple that for me. I have studied at the graduate level including both Biblical languages. I kind of had a head start on Greek. I started learning to speak Greek, working with Greek "
guest workers", the year that Elvis and I were stationed in Germany.
Of course I used to treat Paul's writings as infallible, same as you. Doesn't everybody? That is until 8 years ago, when I tried to find the parallels between him and Jesus. That's when I discovered that he says one thing here, and another thing there. You just can't pin him down.
I think Paul can be pinned down very well. I am not aware of any place where he "
says one thing here, and another thing there."
I also found many instances of him saying 'don't do such and such', and then going and doing exactly what he said not to do. One can easily find examples of him breaking almost every commandment he delivered.
Empty assertions. You have not provided any evidence for this.
He is the very last example of a decent, honourable man we should emulate. Of course he said great things about himself, but don't all successful conmen do that?
False accusation and you are entitled to your opinion. But I prefer scriptural evidence, not opinion, and I have not seen any.
But as he said, 'he is all things to all men'. To the Christian he came to bury the Torah. To the Messianic he came to confirm the Torah. A person sees what they want to see.
That is exactly what you are doing, seeing what you want to see. No evidence!
I've no doubt that you can excuse away all the problems, of which there are many. But is this how we find the truth about anything? By taking a side and defending it to the hilt, like a football supporter? I prefer to let the Bible speak for itself, and if Paul comes out looking bad, then so be it.
You have yet to present any scripture in There is nothing to excuse away, just correcting biased interpretation.
To be fair, he teaches some very good things. Who cannot be moved by his exposition "Love is patient, love is kind (etc)"? Many other teachings are also helpful, such as "everything works together for the good of those who believe", techniques for spiritual warfare, and so on.
Good.
But where it all falls apart is his endorsement of doing our own thing, which he expressed most concisely in Colossians 2:16: "Let no-one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a New Moon or Sabbaths".
I see nothing falling apart except your arguments. Where does Paul advocate us doing our own thing? What exactly do you find wrong with Col 2:16? Have you read Acts 15 and 21?
Now as an evangelist, who knew the commandments inside out, why would he put such a huge stumbling block in front of believers? It's one thing to teach salvation by grace, as rightly expressed in Eph 2:8-9 (yes I mean it). But it's a whole other thing to make this the basis for daily living, where we are expected, even required, to confirm our faith with ongoing good works and obedience to the commandments, as per James 2:14-26.
I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Are you saying Paul is right or wrong for requiring good conduct? I read Paul condemning a lot of sinful acts in his writings. If you are saying that we have to peform "
good works" to gain or keep our salvation then I have to ask wasn't Jesus' sacrifice enough?
If Paul had been serious about building a strong, effective church, he would have been hammering new believers with reminders to now go and do a life of good works and obedience to the commandments. But no, we find him doing the very opposite, as in Col 2:16, Galatians and elsewhere.
So you think not eating certain foods, and observing days, months and years are good works that gain us salvation? See previous response.
So after 8 years, I've reluctantly concluded that it was his intention all along to destroy the church from within. He couldn't do it from outside by persecution, so now he would do it from within. He knew full well that if he could infuse a disrespect for the law, then she would lose her power, protection, and ultimately the respect of the broader community. And isn't that what we see today, by and large?
A load of assumptions/presuppositions and to your question no!
He put on a good show, and managed to fool the apostles for a while. Despite his evident lack of sincerity, he was still able to raise up many godly believers, all Torah-observant, in Thessalonica and Berea (1 Thess 2:13-14 and Acts 17:12). However his true intentions came out with his new teachings at Ephesus (Acts 19:8-9), and as Jeremiah said, "Can the leopard change it spots?" (Jer 13:23). The implied answer is no.
Jeremiah was talking specifically to the king and queen of Israel not all mankind. If this was true for all mankind nobody would be saved because nobody can change. If Paul was able to deceive all the apostles then the Holy Spirit was not leading them into all truth and nothing they say is reliable. If the Christians at Thessalonica were Torah-observant why were they persecuted by the Jews? Acts 17:12 does not support your attack on Paul. All of your proof-texts are bits and pieces yanked out-of-context trying to prove your assumptions/presuppositions.
Paul has fulfilled his purpose, but we are on the verge of tremendous persecution, and his gospel just won't hack it anymore. Paul himself listed the fruits of his gospel as "infirmities, reproaches, poverty, persecution, distress, weakness, foolishness" (2 Cor 12:9-10).
Here you are deliberately twisting what Paul said. Paul was persecuted by the Jews and the Romans as were all Christians at that time, as Jesus prophesied. Torah observance did not save the Jews from the same persecution by the Romans. If I recall correctly Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed and millions of Jews were slaughtered.
I invite you to compare his gospel of defeat with Yeshua's gospel of victory, which emphasises good works and obedience to the commandments. The fruits of that are resistance to disease (Ex 15:26), long life (Ex 20:12; Deut 4:40; 32:46-47), and protection and victory (Deut 28:1-14). That's what's needed to endure the Great Tribulation, not the weakness of Paul's gospel.
Where was that resistance to disease, long life, protection and victory when Rome destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple and slaughtered millions of Torah observant Jews? I guess their practices were just as weak as Paul's supposedly were. I see no weakness in Paul's teaching. The only way anyone could believe this is by reading only selective verses wich support one's assumptions/presuppositons and ignoring the rest.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Please don't come back in attack mode. I've been gracious to you, and expect the same in return. Thank you.
TorahMan
I don't attack I simply post facts. Please show me where any NT writer commanded gentile Christians to be Torah observant?
Excellent!
