Paul, the False Apostle: Rebuttal of Point 3

[IchoozJC]

The point he was making is that Paul himself never repented when he had his so called conversion experience.

How can you say he never repented?

 

[Der Alte]

Thank you, Der Alter for an intelligent reply. Yes, I know that there are problems with some of the Hebrew origins of Matthew. However that doesn't change the points of what I was saying. If you want to look towards more reliable sources we can do that. Eusebius of Caesarea (260-340 CE), Archbishop under Constantine, tells us in his Ecclesiastical History that James was "the lord's brother, who had been elected by the Apostles to the episcopal throne at Jerusalem," (E.H. 2.23).

Josephus, also knows this when he says in his Lives of Illustrious Men ch. 2 that "He [James] alone enjoyed the privilege of entering the Holy of Holies, since, indeed, he did not wear woolen, but only linen clothes, and went into the Temple alone and prayed on behalf of the people, so that his knees were reputed to have acquired the callousness of a camel's knees", and that after Jesus died he "was immediately appointed Bishop of Jerusalem by the Apostles." According to him (Josephus), when the Roman Governor died in 62 CE -and the new one was still on his way to Judaea- Establishment High Priest Ananus ben Ananus used the occasion to illegally try and execute Jesus' brother James, because of his role as supreme leader of the Jesus Movement:

"[H]e assembled the Sanhedrin [the 'Supreme Court'] of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some of his companions. And when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the Law, he delivered them to be stoned. But those citizens who seemed the most equitable and THE MOST CAREFUL IN THE OBSERVATION OF THE LAW were offended by this," (Antiquities of the Jews 20.1).Two generations later, a more legendary account is recorded by Hegesippus, but with the note that James "proved a true witness to Jews and Gentiles alike that Jesus is the Christ," (E.H. 2.23). All of this and more can be found at false apostle Paul website. Why the emphasis on James? Because as noted above we see that Ananus ben Ananus tried to execute James. This must be the same Ananus that Paul refers to in his conversion experience.
Lord,” Ananias answered, “I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your holy people in Jerusalem. And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.”
But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”
Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, and after taking some food, he regained his strength. — Acts 9:13–19, NIV
But look in Acts 5:3: "`Ananias,' Peter asked, `why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit?'"

In other words all you have done is copy/paste a bunch of stuff from Paulhaters-я-us. Have you actually read any of the primary sources yourself? How do you know that the website you are C/P from is reliable and their information is correct?

"Because as noted above we see that Ananus ben Ananus tried to execute James. This must be the same Ananus that Paul refers to in his conversion experience." How could Ananus be Ananias? Ananias, presumably a Christian, fell down dead, in Act 5:5. If Ananias killed James, sometime before he died, how could James still be alive in Acts 21?

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alter,

You really haven't answered TorahMan's response. The point he was making is that Paul himself never repented when he had his so called conversion experience. Sure he can tell others to repent. But what does that show or mean? Nothing, just because he tells others to do it doesn't mean he did it. In America we have a saying, That's the pot calling the kettle black. Since the pot is black just like the kettle it shows hypocrisy. Telling others what to do when the person hasn't done it themselves. Or pointing out the fault of others when they themselves have the same faults.

I might not be the brightest bulb on the tree but I do know how to read. This is Tman's first sentence "If Paul had known about repentance, surely he would have included it in his salvation formula at Rom 10:9 and Eph 2:8-9. However he didn't, which is odd." I proved that Paul did know about repentance.

Further if you look closer to what TorahMan said you will see that he was pointing to what Paul says one must do to be saved. Ephesians;

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ[a]—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.

Paul then goes on to say,

15 He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace, 16 and might reconcile both groups to God in one body[a] through the cross, thus putting to death that hostility through it. 17 So he came and proclaimed peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near; 18 for through him both of us have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God, 20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone.[c] 21 In him the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom you also are built together spiritually[d] into a dwelling place for God.

Now compare this to, John 15: 10

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Or Matthew 19,

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Who was Jesus speaking to in Matt 19:17, a New Testament gentile Christian or an OT Jew in Israel? John 15:10 says "my commandments" not "the commandments." What was Jesus' new commandment upon which all the law and the prophets hang? Read Acts 15:20, 29, 21:25 for the 4 requirements for gentile Christians.

<staff edit>

 

[Phantasman]

Der Alter,

You really haven't answered TorahMan's response. The point he was making is that Paul himself never repented when he had his so called conversion experience. Sure he can tell others to repent. But what does that show or mean? Nothing, just because he tells others to do it doesn't mean he did it. In America we have a saying, That's the pot calling the kettle black. Since the pot is black just like the kettle it shows hypocrisy. Telling others what to do when the person hasn't done it themselves. Or pointing out the fault of others when they themselves have the same faults.

Further if you look closer to what TorahMan said you will see that he was pointing to what Paul says one must do to be saved. Ephesians;

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ[a]&#8212;by grace you have been saved&#8212; 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God&#8212; 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.

Paul then goes on to say,

15 He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace, 16 and might reconcile both groups to God in one body[a] through the cross, thus putting to death that hostility through it. 17 So he came and proclaimed peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near; 18 for through him both of us have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God, 20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone.[c] 21 In him the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom you also are built together spiritually[d] into a dwelling place for God.

Now compare this to, John 15: 10

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Or Matthew 19,

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

<staff edit>
Also I would like it if you would reply to my post on 17 May 12;19 AM

Thank you,
charliemc

You miss the message.

Paul taught the "quickening" of the spirit. (look up quickening). Jesus taught the exact same thing. Both are speaking spirit, and you are comparing physical things. Paul is speaking as a person who never met Jesus as the disciples did, but through the Holy Spirit (as we do). The Jews wanted a sign, and Jesus gave it to them. The Greeks wanted knowledge and Paul gave it to them.

 

[Phantasman]

Paul's salvation formula says NOTHING about repentance, so was he even saved? Apparently not.

If Paul had known about repentance, surely he would have included it in his salvation formula at Rom 10:9 and Eph 2:8-9. However he didn't, which is odd.

For any evangelist worth his salt, the last thing they do is forget the need for repentance. They usually relate their testimony so many times, including the life-changing effect of repentance, that they can virtually do it in their sleep. Their testimony becomes the very last thing they forget.

But because Paul gave us three different versions of his so-called 'salvation experience', none of which say anything about repentance, it's obvious that he didn't realise how central it is. He appears to have said whatever came to mind at the time, probably thinking that near enough is good enough.

Have you ever met an evangelist who didn't jump at every opportunity to urge people to repent? Yet on all three occasions, all Paul really talked about was himself.

These are not the signs of someone who's saved.

According to Peter, Paul is not easily understood, but has the wisdom. And as with all other scriptures (circulating at that time) one needed to become learned to understand.

2 Peter 3
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[IchoozJC]

Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.

2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

That looks like repentance to me.

 

[Der Alte]

You miss the message.

Paul taught the "quickening" of the spirit. (look up quickening). Jesus taught the exact same thing. Both are speaking spirit, and you are comparing physical things. Paul is speaking as a person who never met Jesus as the disciples did, but through the Holy Spirit (as we do). The Jews wanted a sign, and Jesus gave it to them. The Greeks wanted knowledge and Paul gave it to them.

Quick someone call the paramedics, I think I am having cardiac arrest!

 

[catlynne333]

Der Alter,

You really haven't answered TorahMan's response. The point he was making is that Paul himself never repented when he had his so called conversion experience. Sure he can tell others to repent. But what does that show or mean? Nothing, just because he tells others to do it doesn't mean he did it. In America we have a saying, That's the pot calling the kettle black. Since the pot is black just like the kettle it shows hypocrisy. Telling others what to do when the person hasn't done it themselves. Or pointing out the fault of others when they themselves have the same faults.

Further if you look closer to what TorahMan said you will see that he was pointing to what Paul says one must do to be saved. Ephesians;

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ[a]&#8212;by grace you have been saved&#8212; 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God&#8212; 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.

Paul then goes on to say,

15 He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace, 16 and might reconcile both groups to God in one body[a] through the cross, thus putting to death that hostility through it. 17 So he came and proclaimed peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near; 18 for through him both of us have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God, 20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone.[c] 21 In him the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom you also are built together spiritually[d] into a dwelling place for God.

Now compare this to, John 15: 10

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Or Matthew 19,

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

<staff edit>
Also I would like it if you would reply to my post on 17 May 12;19 AM

Thank you,
charliemc

excelent

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alter and Phantasman,

Neither of you have a clue as to what is being taught. John 6

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Yahushua is teaching that it is His Word that is from where the quickening comes from. In other words, His Torah! Which requires study and application to grow in and to understand.

I don't know anybody called Yahushua. I know &#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1513;&#1473;&#1506;/Yehoshua. Hebrew grammar requires that &#1497;&#1492;&#1468; become Yeh or Yoh when used in the first part of compound names. It is Yah when used in the second part of compound names.

Paul is teaching that this quickening can come to the Gentiles by the magical formula of professing Christ Jesus and, from believing that He died on the cross.

Eph. 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh (a word that has a similar meaning to quickening) by the blood of Christ.

Wrong! Nigh does not have a similar meaning to quickening. &#950;&#969;&#959;&#960;&#959;&#953;&#949;&#769;&#969;/zoopoieo translated quicken means to make alive. &#949;&#787;&#947;&#947;&#965;&#769;&#962;/eggus translated nigh, means near.

So Paul is misrepresenting the Words of Yahushua! No mention of Yahushua's Word, no mention of Torah, no mention of study just a magical process that has no worth. He even goes on to say that it comes without works lest any man boast. This coming from a man who constantly is boasting of his own great works! I think the correct word is hypocrite.

Have you ever read 2 Tim 2:15?

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.​

Phantasman also said something about the Greeks were seeking knowledge. The only knowledge that Paul is giving them here is Masonic beliefs.

Eph. 2:19-22
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God. (the Masonic Temple)

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles (Are these the apostles that Paul had no part in? What could he possibly say about the apostles?) and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; "The aspirant for masonic light--the Neophyte--on his first entrance within our sacred porch, prepares himself for this consecrated labor of erecting within his own bosom a fit dwelling-place for the Divine Spirit, and thus commences the noble work by becoming himself the corner-stone on which this spiritual edifice is to be erected." From the Symbolism of Freemasonry.

I have never heard such total nonsense! The masons did not exist in the 1st century. Was Isaiah also a mason?

Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.​

Guess we need to throw out the book of Isaiah also.

<edit>

You never proved any where that Paul repented. All you did was to show that he preached repentance to the Gentiles. But true repentance requires action to make up for the misdeed. If one hates their neighbor and repents of this. He should go to the neighbor and confess his hatred and do good deeds to this man to make up for his sin. Again faith without works is dead. Finally since we are looking at the Ephesians perhaps a look at Rev. 2 might be in order.

I proved what you asked for. Please show me where any of the disciples repented? Can you do that? Can you show me where anyone repented in the new testament? When you do that then I will show you where Paul repented. Hint, someone already did that in this thread. Look up &#963;&#954;&#965;&#769;&#946;&#945;&#955;&#959;&#957;

2 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Just who do you think Yahushua is speaking about? I don't know anyone who claimed to be an apostle and wasn't except Paul!

You have yet to prove that Paul was not an apostle. All you have done is quote a few out-of-context verses which don't say what you claim they do.

 

[americanvet]

I can't speak for all Masons. But this Mason does not worship Baal.

 

[Phantasman]

<quoted post removed>


No one need tell me I don't have a clue. Just that they don't "believe" as I do. It is my reason for not following others, especially OT believers because if the OT was all truth, the Jews would have recognized Christ.

(I need to at least reinsert the Bible part I quoted.)

Galatians 5
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

 

[Criada]

Mod Hat On

This thread has been cleaned.
Please cut out the personal attacks and stay on topic.
Thank you



Mod Hat Off​

 

[Der Alte]

, Wrong! Nigh does not have a similar meaning to quickening. &#950;&#969;&#959;&#960;&#959;&#953;&#949;&#769;&#969;/zoopoieo translated quicken means to make alive. &#949;&#787;&#947;&#947;&#965;&#769;&#962;/eggus translated nigh, means near.

<staff edit>! syz&#333;opoie&#333; "to make one alive together"

eggys
1 near, of place and position
2 near
3 those who are near access to God
4 Jews, as opposed to those who are alien from God and his blessings
5 The Rabbis used the term "to make nigh" as equivalent to "to make a proselyte" If a proselyte isn't connected "together" with his teach then what is he?

What is your source for this? How the Jewish Rabbis used the term is irrelevant. We are talking about how Paul used the term and none of the primary definitions have a meaning similar to quickening.

I have never heard such total nonsense! The masons did not exist in the 1st century. Was Isaiah also a mason?

Yes, he was look at the next verse. They didn't call them masons and they weren't evil. They were the Shepard Kings and they spoke truth. Isaiah is speaking to the worshipers of Baal that live in Jerusalem like Paul. An he is speaking of the End of the world.

Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

So you are saying that when God said "a precious cornerstone" in Isa 28:16 He was speaking as a Mason, which you have admitted did not exist at the time of Isaiah? Since Paul was quoting Isa 28:16 in Eph 2:20 when he said "the chief corner stone" it had absolutely nothing to do with the Masons organization, which did not even exist at that time.

Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.​

2 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Still waiting for you to PROVE that Rev 2:2 refers to Paul. All you are doing is assuming it does based on your anti-Paul assumptions/presuppositions. You have not and never will be able to present any scriptural evidence that Paul was not exactly what he said he was.

 

[JesusMartyr]

Paul was appointed apostle by Jesus Christ Himself to fill the office vacated by Judas.

Paul's writings specifically mirror the Septuagint in fulfillment of all the O.T. scriptures. Quotes, parallels and allusions by the hundreds.

In his humbleness he stated he was the least of the apostles. But I can witness that because of his writings and his particular calling, I can now understand all the O.T. prophecies fulfilled, and was delivered from death into Life in Christ Jesus because of the Gospels and Pauls clear and beautiful exegesis of Israel redeemed in Christ.

I am appalled that anyone would attempt to convince someone else that Paul wasn't an apostle. I'll pray for those who have fallen for that lie. I won't pray for those who spread it though...

 

[Sheraldo]

Jesusmartyr said:

Paul was appointed apostle by Jesus Christ Himself to fill the office vacated by Judas.

Wait, I thought Matthias filled the office vacated by Judas?



Acts 1:15-26
New International Version (NIV)

15 In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) 16 and said, “Brothers and sisters,[a] the Scripture had to be fulfilled in which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus. 17 He was one of our number and shared in our ministry.”

18 (With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

20 “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms:

“‘May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,’
and,

“‘May another take his place of leadership.’[c]
21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”

23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

 

[JesusMartyr]

Jesusmartyr said:





Wait, I thought Matthias filled the office vacated by Judas?



Acts 1:15-26
New International Version (NIV)

15 In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) 16 and said, “Brothers and sisters,[a] the Scripture had to be fulfilled in which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus. 17 He was one of our number and shared in our ministry.”

18 (With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

20 “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms:

“‘May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,’
and,

“‘May another take his place of leadership.’[c]
21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”

23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

That wasn't Jesus appointing Matthias as a replacement obviously. Their protocol wasn't the plan that Jesus had in store.

Paul was the replacement that Jesus chose. Not what "other apostles" chose.

 

[Sheraldo]

That wasn't Jesus appointing Matthias as a replacement obviously. Their protocol wasn't the plan that Jesus had in store.

Paul was the replacement that Jesus chose. Not what "other apostles" chose.

With all due respect, I just don't see it that way at all. Jesus told us that "every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses." The apostles that Jesus chose knew the Truth. John 17:8 For I gave them the words you gave me, and they accepted them. And in John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of EVERYTHING I have said to you."

I believe that. I find it very hard to believe the account of Paul becoming an apostle because I don't see the matter established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Peace,

Sheraldo

 

[TorahMan]

Paul was appointed apostle by Jesus Christ Himself to fill the office vacated by Judas.

In his humbleness he stated he was the least of the apostles.

What??? The man never stopped boasting! And when he wasn't boasting, he was running down the apostles appointed by Jesus!

For example: “I wish that all men were even as I myself... I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of this boast” (1 Cor 7:7; 9:15); “I am not at all inferior to the most eminent apostles... no-one shall stop me from this boasting... receive me as a fool, that I may boast a little... I speak in this confidence of boasting... I also will boast... I am more than the apostles – in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequently... if I must boast, I will boast... it is doubtless not profitable for me to boast (but I will anyway)... I will boast... I might desire to boast... I will rather boast in my infirmities... you have compelled me to boast... In nothing was I behind the most eminent apostles; I advanced beyond many of my contemporaries”; blah blah blah (2 Cor 11:5, 10, 16-18, 23, 30; 12:1, 5-6, 9, 11; Galatians 1:14).

However Jesus had warned that "whoever exalts himself will be humbled" (Matt 23:12), and when someone tried to praise Him even He would not accept it, but told him to instead praise God (Mark 10:18).

I know that Paul told us elsewhere to be humble (Rom 3:27; Gal 5:26; Phil 2:3), but so what? It's what he said and did concerning himself that counts, and frankly he doesn't look too good.

I am appalled that anyone would attempt to convince someone else that Paul wasn't an apostle.

Given the abundance of evidence which shows he was a liar and a hypocrite, I am appalled that anyone would try to convince someone else that he was an apostle.

TorahMan

 

[TorahMan]

Der Alter,

You really haven't answered TorahMan's response. The point he was making is that Paul himself never repented when he had his so called conversion experience. Sure he can tell others to repent. But what does that show or mean? Nothing, just because he tells others to do it doesn't mean he did it. In America we have a saying, That's the pot calling the kettle black. Since the pot is black just like the kettle it shows hypocrisy. Telling others what to do when the person hasn't done it themselves. Or pointing out the fault of others when they themselves have the same faults.

Further if you look closer to what TorahMan said you will see that he was pointing to what Paul says one must do to be saved.

Hi Charlie,

You get it! Thanks!

The fact that Paul mentioned repentance elsewhere, mostly in an off-hand manner, is irrelevant. All that did was get him off the hook for not preaching the full gospel.

We can see its irrelevance from the fact that the mainstream church ignored those other references, choosing to stick with the basic formula in Romans 10:9 which says "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved".

Paul said it all there, so why add repentance? Why risk insulting parishioners by calling them sinners who need to repent? (Translation: Why jeopardise the tithes and offerings?)

And so we have the mainstream church which is full of people who have never properly repented, and wonder why their lives don't go as they should. Of course there's liturgy, and confession to a priest. But how can that possibly compare to sincere sorrow for one's sins, and seeking forgiveness from God? How can anyone receive the Holy Spirit unless they sincerely repent? And isn't the Holy Spirit the key to a sin-free life, where we actually make the earth a better place through our good works towards others?

When I've tried to tell well-meaning religious people that they need to repent, they've always been very offended. A typical response is "How dare you question my religion - keep your born-again crap to yourself!" And despite much effort, I've never been able to steer a single one of them to read John 3:3, where Jesus says plainly that a person HAS to be born again to enter heaven.

At my former church, the senior pastor (who attended many conferences) said that in his experience, less than 10% of ministers are born again. And so he used to lead them to Jesus - just imagine - some of them had been preaching in churches for decades! And the problem goes back to Paul and his avoidance of repentance in Romans 10:9.

I know that the smaller denominations teach sin and repentance, but they do it in spite of Paul, not because of him. Personally it was my own sin and need to repent which brought me to salvation, not anything that Paul said.

TorahMan

 

[catlynne333]

Casting lots is a scriptural method of deciding a matter

Proverbs 16:33

33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord.

Acts1:23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, &#8220;Lord, you know everyone&#8217;s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.&#8221; 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.