Paul the Apostle a false prophet?

[Clare73]

Well, I can't say I am offended by Paul's teachings, just curious why some people view him as a false prophet. It was kinda of a shock for me and I wanted to know what were the reasons for these beliefs. So many writings were left out of the Bible too that I am curious about. Some of them that I have read, I'm not sure why they were left out, so I am glad as many made it in to the canon as did. Personally, I would like to read anything I can about those times and peoples views when Jesus was here and the first 2 or 3 centuries after Jesus sacrfice on the cross. That`s just me.

Hopeful that your working knowledge of the canon is good enough to correctly evaluate non-canonical writings,
so as not to be deceived.

Those writings are not canonical for a reason.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Clare73]

Paul doesn't say that good works are detrimental to salvation, nor does he say that believers won't perform good works. He says that the keeping of the law does not merit salvation and that faith alone saves, excluding works of the law (Rom 3:21-28). After being saved, believers can't help but perform good works. Anyone who thinks that faith alone implies the liberty to sin needs to read the Epistle to the Galatians very carefully.

The Gospels also exclude good works as meriting salvation (Matthew 7:22-23, Luke 5:32, John 15:16 [which says that the elect bear fruit after they have been called].) The Gospels also exclude any free will in regards to salvation, no one has yet given me a good argument against John 15:5 which crushes free will into the dust. Obviously if we don't have a free will, it follows that works do not merit salvation.

As to why people try and discredit the blessed Apostle Paul, probably for the same reasons people argue against Christianity in general. The Jews in particular seem to have a problem with Paul, probably because he crushes their fabled delusions about the keeping of the law leading to salvation. Then there are those Christians who claim to follow Paul's teachings but ignore everything he said about this topic, (RCC/EO [love you guys and your still my fellow Christians, but your wrong on this one], but especially any kind of Arminian theology which takes it even further than Rome/Constantinople).

And even many Jews who profess faith in Christ reject the majority of Christ's NT revelation given personally to the apostles, because they want Christ on their own terms, rather than on his terms given in his NT revelation.

Then there are some who point to one verse of a disputed epistle written well after the rest of the Canon, that this one verse overthrows the rest of Scripture. I know of Reformed and Lutheran scholars that try to reconcile the two, you can't. The Scriptures say that faith alone saves, this one little verse in James say works save. [The best that can be done is to try and understand that James was probably talking to Christians who thought you could be saved and then live a degenerate lifestyle since your saved by faith alone without works.] There's always been disputes about James since the 3rd century (it was probably written well into the second century).

I don't think James says that works save.

I think he uses "justification" differently than Paul uses it.

In Paul, "justification" means righteousness, by forgiveness of sin through faith by grace.

In James, "justification" means verified, as one's claim to be a good cook is justified by their many cooking awards.

They are really saying the same thing: the faith alone which "justifies" (saves) is justified (verified, shown to be true) by obedience (works).

The evangelicals in particular are good at this, saying it is your decision which saves you. Yes my blackened sin filled heart given to Jesus which saves me (great birthday present)...right...It is by grace alone through faith alone, without human works and without human free will. Something Paul understood and something which the world still rages against.

Agreed!

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Clare73]

Actually, Paul banned all motivations and desires which would culminate in the commission of sinful acts, while stating clearly that in order for us to perform righteous acts, the motivations for those acts had to be righteous in-and-of themselves:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

Under the heading 'the acts of the sinful nature' we find every desire and motivation which has culminated in the commission of a sinful act. And under the heading 'the fruit of the Spirit' we find the motivations which are necessary if we are to truly perform acts of righteousness. The old saying, "He did all the right things, but for all the wrong reasons," needs to be taken to heart by those of us who are Christians. You cannot pick good fruit from a tree whose roots are planted in poisoned soil, and you cannot perform righteous acts while using the motivations which are clearly part of the sinful nature. In order for the acts to be righteous, the impetus for those actions must also be righteous, and that can only occur when that impetus is the motivations listed as the fruit of the Spirit.

There were those who opposed Paul because he stood against compulsory circumcision for all Gentile males who converted to Christianity, as well as not requiring Gentiles to adopt purely Judaic societal laws. But they never accused Paul of being immoral, or of condoning immorality. His epistles are quite clear in their telling the new Gentile converts that there were actions which, even if they had participated in their commission before they converted to Christianity, they were now to see as offlimits to them.

But he not only told them what they could and could not do as Christians, but also told them how to accomplish this. Obeying a set of laws wouldn't work. As the heart went, the body followed, and if the heart was led by the sinful nature, all the laws in the world wouldn't do any good. So he realized that the sinful nature would have to be 'reined in', and that would take the direct intervention of the Spirit, and then the motivations which are recognized even today as the source of all that is good needed to be implanted in the converts, and that would also take the direct intervention of the Spirit.

So Paul was not against morality; far from it. He simply knew that there was a way in which that morality could become an integral part of the new convert's life and everyday experience. And that way was through their putting their trust in God, and by so doing opening their hearts up to his ability to 'reprogram' their desires and motivations so that those desires and motivations could conform to what God wanted of them.

Beautifully stated!

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Clare73]

Religion?

The non-Christian Jews and Muslims are the ones that view Saul/Paul as a "false Apostle", tho there are some in the Messianic Jewish sect that have an axe to grind with him concerning the OC Mosaic Law and Commandments

http://www.christianforums.com/t7702887/#post61803477

And they've been grinding that axe for millennia, in spite of Jesus' NT revelation personally given to the apsotles, including Paul.

Some things never change.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Clare73]

That's not entirely accurate. I'm neither Jew nor Muslim,but rather, a Christian who no longer views Paul's words as an authority.

That's sad, because Paul received his revelation from Jesus Christ as did the other apostles.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Clare73]

Well, That's your opinion... ;-) actually, I feel absolutely no loss. I prefer to follow Christ, not Paul. Besides,
we don't have a quote from God telling us that Paul would speak God's words. Paul never walked with Christ like John did. I have many reasons for my belief, but the result is a more solid foundation for it.

We have quotes from Jesus regarding Paul, just as we have quotes from Jesus regarding the rest of the apostles.

"In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, 'Ananias!'
'Yes, Lord,' he answered.

The Lord told him, 'Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for
he is praying. In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.'

'Lord,' Ananias answered, 'I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.'

But the Lord said to Ananias, 'Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel.I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.'

Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, 'Brother Saul, the Lord--Jesus who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here--has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.' Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, and after taking some food, he regained his strength." (Ac 9:10-19)

We have more than a "quote" from God in Jesus regarding Paul.
We have a whole conversion event from God in Jesus,
a filling with the Holy Spirit from God in Jesus,
and a baptism in Jesus.

You get to decide if you will believe Jesus' NT revelation or not.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Clare73]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
"I had no idea so many Christians had problems with Paul til now!"

Well...there are reasons why many question the apostle Paul...it's not just a bunch of people who are out to discredit the bible...it's God believing, bible believing christians who honestly question some of his teachings...I'm glad people give their reasons...it what I wanted to know

But "it's God believing, bible believing Christians" who evidently don't accept the authority of the NT word of God written, and feel free to challenge its veracity and authority.

Not a good thing. . .re-inventing the wheel.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Clare73]

Even though I was taught for decades that Paul's words were infallible, none of his teachings ever "felt" right. I still believed them because I thought I had to. I'm older now, and have a very different view of the world and God's role in it.

For starters Paul seemed to have a haughty personality. His writing style gave the understanding that he
thought very highly of his presumed commission, while interjected with an occasional feigned humility.

"Interesting" approach.

1) "Presumed commission." Have you read Ac 9:10-19? Evidently not.
Or you believe Ananias is a liar.

His defense of his ministry from Jesus Christ, by presenting his credentials, against the Judaizers false claims regarding him, is viewed as "haughty,"
but his humility is viewed as fake.

Now, that's a consistent approach.
If his humility is fake, shouldn't his haughtiness be fake also?

Also, when faced with possible execution, he didn't behave as a resigned martyr, but rather used his ties to Rome to get out of it. He didn't behave as Christ did to the cross.

Aw, cheese Louise.

Christ was commissioned by God to die for sin.
Paul was commisioned by God in Christ to preach the gospel.

Where is the rule book for the proper behavior of martyrs?

He took a large space to fill with all the awful things he endured, yet most of these things
I haven't seen other testimony about

So Paul was lying?

This Paul,
1) personally commissioned by Jesus Christ (Ac 9:10-19),
2) given revelation personally by Jesus Christ into the counsel of God so deep
that he was not allowed to repeat some of it (2Co 12:2-4),
3) who was given the right hand of fellowship by the apostles Peter, John and James (Gal 2:9),
4) whose writings Peter regarded as Scripture and grouped them with "the other Scriptures" (2Pe 3:16),

this Paul never "felt right" to you.

Now that's a sound basis for determining Biblical truth.

If you're going to be a Biblical critic, I recommend you become more Biblically informed.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Clare73]

I have heard Paul refered to as antichrist.
Do you remember in the news Pope Jean Paul on his deathbed saying he feared George Bush was the antichrist ?
Yet he himself was accused of the same.

I remember reading that some of the apostles were Pharisees (John & Paul)
and wrote jewish traditions rather than chris'ts message, Paul being the greatest of these.

I read also that false prophets were put to death by law.
Prophets and seers lived off the king's money
and if their prophesies could be shown to be untrue they were killed by law.

Here I simply relate what little Ive read.

one author writes

this author insist that John was a spy, a pharasee, and traitor to the true gospel

That's called the spirit of the anti-Christ; i.e., liars, deceivers and many (1Jn 2:18, 22; 2Jn 7).

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Clare73]

In addition to the reasons I stated earlier, I would also add that Paul's teachings just don't seem to follow what Christ has said. He seems more demanding,

Perhaps you should review Mt 23, where Jesus exclaims:

"you hypocrites!. . .you make them twice as much a son of hell as you are. . .you blind guides! . .you blind fools! . .you blind men! . .inside you are full of greed and self indulgence. . .blind Pharisee! . .full of hypocrisy and wickedness. . .descendants of those who murdered the prophets, fill up the meaure of your forefathers' sin! . .you snakes! . .you brood of vipers! . .how will you escape being condemened to hell? . .upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Able to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar" (Mt 23:13-35)

As the sweet little old Christian lady said, "I'm sure we'd all think more of him if he hadn't said some of those things."

And then you might review Jn 7:19, 8:40-55, where Jesus says:

"why are you trying to kill me? . .you are ready to kill me because you have no room for my word. . .you are determined to kill me. . .you belong to your father the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire (to kill me). He was a murderer from the beginning. . .you dishonor me. . .if I said I did not know the Father, I would be a liar like you. . ."

Jesus, meek and mild. . .yep, Paul was "more demanding."

I'm just a regular persona and a follower of Christ, but this is how I see it.

And if you're going to be a Biblical critic, I recommend you beome more Biblically informed.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Clare73]

Paul was right to preach against turning back to Judaism.

The Mosaic Law carries with it a curse for not obeying every commandment. The curses are in Deuteronomy 28:15-68. Jesus bore the curse of the Law on Himself so that we wouldn't have to. (Galatians 3:13) The Jews of Paul's day had rejected Jesus and thus bore the curse on themselves.

Had the Christians subjected themselves to the Law, they would have fallen under the curse of the Law. That curse came upon the Jewish people shortly after Peter was crucified upside down. After Cestius turned back from Jerusalem, the Church had fled from Jerusalem like Lot fled from Sodom. Then the city was sieged by Vespasian and Titus, sealing a most terrible destruction upon the Jewish people, in Jerusalem an throughout the Roman Empire.

If we Christians turn back to the Mosaic Law, we nullify the fact that Christ took the curse on Himself and thereby render us punishable by the curse. That is because 'all men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.'

. . .

In the faith,
Clare

 

[AmyNMoore]

You're misinterpreting those verse. Christ never says faith must be accompanied by works. James is speaking of the horizontal effect of a vertical faith in Christ. In other words, our faith will produce works not because they are necessary for salvation, but because of our love for God.

you are right i agree paul was not a false teacher. here is why some think he was.
that some of his teachings don't line up with christs.
it is explainable in the fact that paul said himself that he only knew 3 things of christ the crusifixion the resurection and the baptizm. until he spends 15 days in jerusalem with peter and james. then there he learns the LORDS sup

 

[GloryBe!]

Clare, I admit that your denomination has taught you well to follow their teachings as well as how to argue that their (your) way is the ONLY way to believe. I'm not surprised by your words, but am disappointed mostly by your telling the OP to not veer from the "Canon" to improve his knowledge by including those writings that the King James translators didn't include. I truly hope that one who reads here is more of a leader...one that will choose to learn and decide for him/herself. I'm still in the RElearning stage, having thrown off the denominational chains of my youth, to learn what more so many sheep are missing.

 

[Zanting]

I do so appreciate the perspectives presented here and like GloryBe is saying...I am learning and hope always to gain a deeper more understanding of the canon as a whole. God wants me to learn and get to know him. I wasn't attending a church or going to services or being witnessed to or anything when God came to me. But He filled me with a desire to learn everything I can starting with the canon and how it came to be His trusted word. And so my journey with God has begun and it has led me to other ancient texts as well.

It is also true that there are many different denominations and perspectives out there and God is asking me to learn. His guidance is what I am following. That's all. There is a lot of deception out there and I'm just following His path for me in seeking His truth. It may be that I will never become a member of any particular denomination...I'm leaving that in Gods hands as well. I trust Him. That's all. And posing questions to other christians is part of the learning process. CF is often where I begin, or I just read stuff...and sometimes I comment or offer support or my experience, but I don't like arguing so I don't do a lot of that anymore.

Anyway...hope that presents some context for responders. And thanks for being so open.

 

[MWood]

As we read and study the Bible we need to realize the Bible is just a history book of how God has dealt with his human creation during those years. All of the Old Testiment is about God dealing with His chosen people, Israel. Jesus was a promise of God to the Nation of Israel through the Prophets from 1 Samuel through Malachi. The Four Gospels are an account of the fulment of that Promise. Jesus came to the Nation of Israel as their Messiah and to be their King. He was not promised to the Gentiles, only to the Nation of Israel. He said in Mat.15:24 "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Even after He died on the Cross the Gentiles could not recieve any blessings from God unless they went to Israel. It was only after Steven was stoned to death (which was the rejection of the Holy Spirit) that Gods program for Israel changed.

The Jews and Gentiles are now on equal footing in the eyes of God. They are not above all other Nations as God told them back in Moses day. We are all living in the age of the Gospel of the Grace of God. The Gospel that was given to the Apostle Paul. All that Paul preached was about what Jesus accomplished when He died on the Cross. Forgiveness of sins, Sanctification, Redemption, Reconcilation, Justification. All these were accomplished on the Cross and are not mentioned in the Old Testiment or the New Testiment. They were only revealed to the Apostle Paul. His Gospel was different than Jesus'. Jesus preached the Gosple of the Kingdom. Which was to the Jews only.

Read and study, pay attention to what you are reading, who said it, who were they talking to, what was the context of the message, pray for understanding, knowledge, and wisdom. It will come.

 

[GloryBe!]

I do so appreciate the perspectives presented here and like GloryBe is saying...I am learning and hope always to gain a deeper more understanding of the canon as a whole. God wants me to learn and get to know him. I wasn't attending a church or going to services or being witnessed to or anything when God came to me. But He filled me with a desire to learn everything I can starting with the canon and how it came to be His trusted word. And so my journey with God has begun and it has led me to other ancient texts as well.

It is also true that there are many different denominations and perspectives out there and God is asking me to learn. His guidance is what I am following. That's all. There is a lot of deception out there and I'm just following His path for me in seeking His truth. It may be that I will never become a member of any particular denomination...I'm leaving that in Gods hands as well. I trust Him. That's all. And posing questions to other christians is part of the learning process. CF is often where I begin, or I just read stuff...and sometimes I comment or offer support or my experience, but I don't like arguing so I don't do a lot of that anymore.

Anyway...hope that presents some context for responders. And thanks for being so open.

:thumbs up:

 

[toolite]

Paul was probably one of the strongest and the realist Prophets..

Glory To God

 

[7he4uthor]

paul killed Christians
peter denied jesus 3 times, was asked if he loves jesus 3 times, and was called satan Google

Thomas was in doubt not faith
jude sold out to rome
the whole lot fell asleep on the crucial night of arrest

did any apostle measure up ?

and in their non canonical gospels each claims to be Jesus'
favorite [including judas and Magdalene]

in Daniel jesus says only Michael remained faithful
this may refer to the ''legions of angels'' appointed to serve him
and by Daniel;s day only 1 remained true.


was paul false ?

many say yes, even antichrist.


Google

getting a grace card is like having a second chance
those who get the chance ought to be graceful

Google

 

[rockytopva]

But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: - Acts 9:15


The Apostle Paul... Love him or hate him... He was hand picked by Christ Jesus himself to take the Gospel to the Gentiles.

 

[brinny]

Amen Rocky.