Paul the Apostle a false prophet?

ViaCrucis

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Yeah, like Ephesians 5-Wives, be submissive to your husbands...

Which is part of a larger context of, "submit to one another"; the Apostle calls for mutual submission, wives to husbands, husbands to wives, etc. That particular pericope extends into Ephesians 6.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by Abrahamist This is to a large extent the reason I am a Catholic.
Protestant Christianity just does not present a coherent view of the Christian religion.

and this comment is the reason I left the RC church.
WE, don't have idols in our church, WE only have ONE mediator between God and Man, Jesus. We only believe God is infallible....shall I go on?
Guess that would make both arguements valid :D

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Revelation 9:20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands,
that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.

.....
 
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stan1953

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Paul has always suffered from lack of acceptance, even when He ministered in Acts. If we are to believe our current canon of scripture, which as Christians we should, then Luke, Peter and John, were witnesses to Paul's ministry. As Peter attested to in 2 Peter, Paul was hard to accept, but His was the message to the Gentiles, which were NOT as indoctrinated as the Jews were into their own religious views. Paul was considered a traitor and heretic by many Jews, even the ones who converted to Christianity. They always found themselves opposed to Paul's teachings, when they tried to carry over ANY Judaic religiosity.
Anyone who today is offended by Pau,l is probably not where they need to be in their lives with Christ.
 
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Zanting

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Well, I can't say I am offended by Paul's teachings, just curious why some people view him as a false prophet. It was kinda of a shock for me and I wanted to know what were the reasons for these beliefs. So many writings were left out of the Bible too that I am curious about. Some of them that I have read, I'm not sure why they were left out, so I am glad as many made it in to the canon as did. Personally, I would like to read anything I can about those times and peoples views when Jesus was here and the first 2 or 3 centuries after Jesus sacrfice on the cross. That`s just me.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Well, I can't say I am offended by Paul's teachings, just curious why some people view him as a false prophet. It was kinda of a shock for me and I wanted to know what were the reasons for these beliefs. So many writings were left out of the Bible too that I am curious about. Some of them that I have read, I'm not sure why they were left out, so I am glad as many made it in to the canon as did. Personally, I would like to read anything I can about those times and peoples views when Jesus was here and the first 2 or 3 centuries after Jesus sacrfice on the cross. That`s just me.
It should be no surprise that some people view Paul as a false prophet, there are those who thought Jesus was human but not divine, some who thought He was divine and not human, there are some who do not consider Mary the mother of God, just the mother of Jesus (which in effect says that Jesus is not God), there are those that deny the Trinity, and there are those who deny every point of Christianity, yet still call themselves Christians.
Regarding the apocraphal writings of the New Testament, there is nothing that says you should not read them, but you should beware, as many of them contain non-Christian views and heretical ideas. Most of them, if you study the history of them, come post-apostolic age. But, you see, that's the beauty of the Catholic Church, we consider the writings of the apostles and the apostolic fathers to be important in learning what the context of scripture actually is. If you know what the first disciples of Jesus and the first disciples of the apostles thought about what the Gospels teach us, you find it's decidedly different than what's taught today. I recommend a book by Jimmy Akin called The Fathers Know Best.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Which is part of a larger context of, "submit to one another"; the Apostle calls for mutual submission, wives to husbands, husbands to wives, etc. That particular pericope extends into Ephesians 6.

-CryptoLutheran
My point, exactly. The understanding is that love = sacrifice, as Christ loved us from the cross.
 
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bach90

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Paul doesn't say that good works are detrimental to salvation, nor does he say that believers won't perform good works. He says that the keeping of the law does not merit salvation and that faith alone saves, excluding works of the law (Rom 3:21-28). After being saved, believers can't help but perform good works. Anyone who thinks that faith alone implies the liberty to sin needs to read the Epistle to the Galatians very carefully.

The Gospels also exclude good works as meriting salvation (Matthew 7:22-23, Luke 5:32, John 15:16 [which says that the elect bear fruit after they have been called].) The Gospels also exclude any free will in regards to salvation, no one has yet given me a good argument against John 15:5 which crushes free will into the dust. Obviously if we don't have a free will, it follows that works do not merit salvation.

As to why people try and discredit the blessed Apostle Paul, probably for the same reasons people argue against Christianity in general. The Jews in particular seem to have a problem with Paul, probably because he crushes their fabled delusions about the keeping of the law leading to salvation. Then there are those Christians who claim to follow Paul's teachings but ignore everything he said about this topic, (RCC/EO [love you guys and your still my fellow Christians, but your wrong on this one], but especially any kind of Arminian theology which takes it even further than Rome/Constantinople). Then there are some who point to one verse of a disputed epistle written well after the rest of the Canon, that this one verse overthrows the rest of Scripture. I know of Reformed and Lutheran scholars that try to reconcile the two, you can't. The Scriptures say that faith alone saves, this one little verse in James say works save. [The best that can be done is to try and understand that James was probably talking to Christians who thought you could be saved and then live a degenerate lifestyle since your saved by faith alone without works.] There's always been disputes about James since the 3rd century (it was probably written well into the second century).

The evangelicals in particular are good at this, saying it is your decision which saves you. Yes my blackened sin filled heart given to Jesus which saves me (great birthday present)...right...It is by grace alone through faith alone, without human works and without human free will. Something Paul understood and something which the world still rages against.
 
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Harry3142

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Actually, Paul banned all motivations and desires which would culminate in the commission of sinful acts, while stating clearly that in order for us to perform righteous acts, the motivations for those acts had to be righteous in-and-of themselves:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

Under the heading 'the acts of the sinful nature' we find every desire and motivation which has culminated in the commission of a sinful act. And under the heading 'the fruit of the Spirit' we find the motivations which are necessary if we are to truly perform acts of righteousness. The old saying, "He did all the right things, but for all the wrong reasons," needs to be taken to heart by those of us who are Christians. You cannot pick good fruit from a tree whose roots are planted in poisoned soil, and you cannot perform righteous acts while using the motivations which are clearly part of the sinful nature. In order for the acts to be righteous, the impetus for those actions must also be righteous, and that can only occur when that impetus is the motivations listed as the fruit of the Spirit.

There were those who opposed Paul because he stood against compulsory circumcision for all Gentile males who converted to Christianity, as well as not requiring Gentiles to adopt purely Judaic societal laws. But they never accused Paul of being immoral, or of condoning immorality. His epistles are quite clear in their telling the new Gentile converts that there were actions which, even if they had participated in their commission before they converted to Christianity, they were now to see as offlimits to them.

But he not only told them what they could and could not do as Christians, but also told them how to accomplish this. Obeying a set of laws wouldn't work. As the heart went, the body followed, and if the heart was led by the sinful nature, all the laws in the world wouldn't do any good. So he realized that the sinful nature would have to be 'reined in', and that would take the direct intervention of the Spirit, and then the motivations which are recognized even today as the source of all that is good needed to be implanted in the converts, and that would also take the direct intervention of the Spirit.

So Paul was not against morality; far from it. He simply knew that there was a way in which that morality could become an integral part of the new convert's life and everyday experience. And that way was through their putting their trust in God, and by so doing opening their hearts up to his ability to 'reprogram' their desires and motivations so that those desires and motivations could conform to what God wanted of them.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I was just wondering about views on Paul. I am not trying to offend anyone's religion.
I believe that Jesus is my teacher and guide and as long as He is with me, I will not be led astray.
Religion?

The non-Christian Jews and Muslims are the ones that view Saul/Paul as a "false Apostle", tho there are some in the Messianic Jewish sect that have an axe to grind with him concerning the OC Mosaic Law and Commandments :angel:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7702887/#post61803477
 
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GloryBe!

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LittleLambofJesus said:
Religion?

The non-Christian Jews and Muslims are the ones that view Saul/Paul as a "false Apostle", tho there are some in the Messianic Jewish sect that have an axe to grind with him concerning the OC Mosaic Law and Commandments :angel:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7702887/#post61803477

That's not entirely accurate. I'm neither Jew nor Muslim,but rather, a Christian who no longer views Paul's words as an authority.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus Religion?

The non-Christian Jews and Muslims are the ones that view Saul/Paul as a "false Apostle", tho there are some in the Messianic Jewish sect that have an axe to grind with him concerning the OC Mosaic Law and Commandments :angel:
That's not entirely accurate. I'm neither Jew nor Muslim,but rather, a Christian who no longer views Paul's words as an authority.
Well, that is your loss ;)


..
 
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GloryBe!

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LittleLambofJesus said:
Well, that is your loss ;)

..

Well, That's your opinion... ;-) actually, I feel absolutely no loss. I prefer to follow Christ, not Paul. Besides, we don't have a quote from God telling us that Paul would speak God's words. Paul never walked with Christ like John did. I have many reasons for my belief, but the result is a more solid foundation for it.
 
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brinny

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Well, That's your opinion... ;-) actually, I feel absolutely no loss. I prefer to follow Christ, not Paul. Besides, we don't have a quote from God telling us that Paul would speak God's words. Paul never walked with Christ like John did. I have many reasons for my belief, but the result is a more solid foundation for it.

Would you be so kind as to elaborate? Thank you.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by GloryBe! That's not entirely accurate. I'm neither Jew nor Muslim,but rather, a Christian who no longer views Paul's words as an authority.
Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus Well, that is your loss ;)

Originally Posted by GloryBe! Well, That's your opinion... ;-) actually, I feel absolutely no loss. I prefer to follow Christ, not Paul. Besides, we don't have a quote from God telling us that Paul would speak God's words. Paul never walked with Christ like John did.
I have many reasons for my belief, but the result is a more solid foundation for it.
Would you be so kind as to elaborate? Thank you.
I had no idea so many Christians had problems with Paul til now!

http://www.christianforums.com/t7529920-34/#post56601136
Problems with Paul

So I"m reading the bible cover to cover, like any other book, in an attempt to get greater understanding, learning and growing in my relationship with God. (I don't belong to a church and won't)

Everything was going just fine.........till I got to romans, then I started having a problem here.

I'm having severe internal conflict now because I'm seeing contradictions in pauls letters.

Please help me out here.

Here are my issues so far, I"m in the corinthians letters so far and will continue reading further tonight.

Paul basically said that the law is no more, you can eat what you want, you can worship anyday that you want, all that law is gone.

Ok.......sounds good to me. But, then he started talking about women wearing a head covering while praying, and men not being allowed to wear one, and then women can't speak in the church, and he actually said something like "This is the Law" or something to that affect.

Huh, say what???????????????????????????? The Law? But he just got done saying there is no law, but then now there is the Law just in regards to women??????????

Having a problem with that total contradiction. Did I misunderstand something here or what?

Then he says that the governments are good, we are to obey them, and they have god's blessing, or something to that affect. Well, when the governments require us to get the mark of the beast.........what then? Are we supposed to obey them too???? How many people will go along with it because of that verse???????

He also said in one verse to follow him................follow him? A human being? I follow Jesus, not paul.

There were other things that I read, also written by paul, that just didn't set well with me, but I don't remember them all.

So, what's the deal?
 
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Zanting

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Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
"I had no idea so many Christians had problems with Paul til now!"

Well...there are reasons why many question the apostle Paul...it's not just a bunch of people who are out to discredit the bible...it's God believing, bible believing christians who honestly question some of his teachings...I'm glad people give their reasons...it what I wanted to know :)
 
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GloryBe!

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Even though I was taught for decades that Paul's words were infallible, none of his teachings ever "felt" right. I still believed them because I thought I had to. I'm older now, and have a very different view of the world and God's role in it.

For starters Paul seemed to have a haughty personality. His writing style gave the understanding that he thought very highly of his presumed commission, while interjected with an occasional feigned humility.
Also, when faced with possible execution, he didn't behave as a resigned martyr, but rather used his ties to Rome to get out of it. He didn't behave as Christ did to the cross.
He took a large space to fill with all the awful things he endured, yet most of these things I haven't seen other testimony about (Maybe I just haven't read the right things).
There are other things I have issue with, but I'll stop there.
 
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