Paul Showing Us That We Are All Israel (Jews and non-Jews alike)

[Devin P]

Key:
Blue text - Introduction
Red Text - Reference to Ezekiel 37
Purple Text - Reference or quotes from Isaiah 57
Pink text - Original word and definition in Greek / Hebrew
Black Text - Regular dialogue

It's long, so buckle up. But In the below article, I show that through the quotes and references made from the old testament scriptures, Paul without a doubt believed that there is no difference in Jew or Gentile, and that all are brought near into the fold of God - aka, Israel.

So, Paul often quotes either word for word from the old testament, or uses ideas and phrases straight from the old testament scriptures to make his points. Most of the time when people think he's creating a phrase or idea by the influence of the Holy Spirit, he's simply quoting from scripture, or talking about a concept previously mentioned somewhere in the old testament.

So, Ephesians 2 for example he takes an idea from a prophecy in Ezekiel 37, and also from a prophecy in Isaiah 57. We will take a look at both of these.

The prophecy from Ezekiel 37, he simply talks about the concept mentioned in the prophecy and we'll look at this. He also talks about how Jesus fulfilled it for us, which we'll look at also.

Then, later, he talks about a prophecy in Isaiah, and quotes from it word for word, but again, first we'll take a look at the prophecy mentioned in Ezekiel first:

So, first off, Ephesians was written to the people of the city of Ephesus, they were gentiles. Greeks, literally a people group made synonymous with the term gentiles. This is important to remember, and of course we know that Paul, is a Jew, of the tribe of Benjamin. He is of the "circumcision" (aka, a Jew) and he's writing to the "uncircumcision" (aka, the gentiles/nations).

The Red text, is a reference or quote from Ezekiel 37, and Purple, is a reference or quote from Isaiah 57.

Paul starts off Ephesians 2:1-5 by mentioning that the gentiles, and the jews alike, were once dead in sins and transgressions:

Eph 2:1 And you, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

So, Paul mentions that we all were dead in sins and transgressions, jews (verses 3 and 5), and gentiles (verses 1, 2, 3, and 5.) Everyone.

In Ezekiel 37, as this section of Ephesians started off by mentioning that we all were dead in sins and transgressions, it starts off with Ezekiel being shown many dead bones:

Eze 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
Eze 37:2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
Eze 37:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.

God then shows us who these bones are:

Eze 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

So, first off the phrase "whole house of Israel" in Ezekiel 37:11, is only ever talked about, when it's regarding both, the northern house (Israel) and the southern house (Judah). It's mentioned when it's talking about all of Israel as it was intended, before they split apart into two factions with two kingdoms after King Solomon.

But I digress - God then shows us what He will do with these many dead bones:

Eze 37:5-14 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
Eze 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
Eze 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

Paul then says that we will be raised up together, and talks of the riches to come:

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, made us alive together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

In verses 5-6, Paul shows us that we were once dead, but now we have been made alive, raised together, just as the army of bones was made alive in Ezekiel 37.

Then, he goes on to say who the gentiles of Ephesus are:

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

So, Paul makes known to the gentiles he was writing to in verse 11, that they were once gentiles in the flesh, who are called by the circumcision (the jews), uncircumcised. In verse 12, he says that, at that point in time, that we WERE without the promise of the Messiah, and therefore that we were aliens from the commonwealth (the greek word "πολιτεία" which means citizenship) of Israel, but that now, in Christ, we are in fact Israel. Which, he shows by quoting from Isaiah 57 in verse 13, but we'll get to that quote and another direct quote from Isaiah 57 that Paul makes later.

Then, in verse 14, Paul says that He, Jesus, is our peace. And that he has made both one, and that the thing dividing jews from gentiles, has been broken. Why is this important?

Eze 37:15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
Eze 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

And again:

Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

He says that Ephrayim, and Judah, will become one. Big deal, right? Why is Ephrayim and Judah becoming one important? We'll get to that at the end.

Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

Ezekiel 37:22, shows that finally, Israel and Judah, will once again be reunited, no longer being two nations. This was something that puzzled people, and even angels and principalities. No one knew how this would be done, because God divorced Israel due to their adulteries, and according to His own law (Torah), once a bride is divorced, and she joins another, she cannot come back to her first husband. She's cursed to remain unmarried until her husband dies. Which, her husband did, on the cross, and He resurrected so that she could remarry Him, and rejoin into the nation of Israel once more.

 

[Devin P]

I digress though, back to that quote from Isaiah 57:

The first one -

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

and the second one -

Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Isa 57:19 I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.

So, we see that verse 17 is a quote and reference from Isaiah 57. Isaiah 57, is about Israel's disobedience, and their adultery, and God casting them off from Him due to this. At the end though, He says that He will heal them and bring them back to Him. This is what Paul is mentioning, in reference to the gentiles.

Verse 18, Paul shows that both of us - Jews and non-Jews alike - have access to God by the same spirit.

Verse 19, shows that we - non-Jews - are no longer strangers, but fellowcitizens. The prophecy in Isaiah 57 was about Israel, so there should be no mistaking that the thing we are being fellowcitizens in, is Israel, the household of God.

Now to the blessing to Ephrayim, in Genesis 48:




17And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
18And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
19And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations. (the hebraic phrase "מְלֹא הגוימ" which means fullness of the gentiles")



Why does Ephrayim becoming the "fullness of the gentiles" matter? Because, look again to Paul, in Romans 11, when he talks about the gentiles being "grafted" into the good olive tree of Israel. (Israel was called a good, green olive tree in the book of Jeremiah). Paul refers to this grafting, as the "fullness of the gentiles". This is where he gets that phrase "fullness of the gentiles" from, from the blessing mentioned in Genesis 48, one of the great mysteries of scripture.



I digress though, if you made it through all of this: This is one example. Paul does this in literally every single one of his letters, numerous times. I used to think he just made up phrases and ideas under the influence of the Holy Spirit, but no! He doesn't just make up phrases, he constantly takes ideas and concepts (often even entire paragraphs, word for word) from old testament scriptures and prophecy that are about Israel, and applies them to Gentiles. I do also believe, that this means we are to keep Torah as Israel is commanded. I don't believe Jesus ever taught that we can break Torah, nor do I believe Paul or any other new testament writer did, as that would be against all of the prophecy in the old testament, and it'd be against Torah, which our Savior cannot do or say anything against Torah. That is something that was initiated by the Romans, and later, the roman catholic church. I understand most will disagree with this last point, but to say that we aren't to keep Torah, contradicts with so much of scripture that it'd be ridiculous if what I'm saying isn't true.

This does not mean that we replace the Jews. That is nonsense, and is nowhere in scripture. We are made one with them, and all are Israel who accept the Messiah, and keep His Torah according to the words written in the Torah, and not according to the Talmud or man-made traditions and doctrines.

 

[Devin P]

/bump

 

[Open Heart]

We Jews will sometimes say to our Gentile friends who show an affinity for the commandments or Israel, "You have the heart of a Jew," or "You are more Jewish than many Jews I know!" It doesn't mean we actually think they are Jews.

In the same respect, Paul is speaking figuratively when he compliments the Gentile believers in the churches and tells them they are spiritual Jews because they have circumcised hearts. Paul does NOT mean they are actually Jews or that Gentile believers are part of Israel.

The Ekklesia is part of the COMMONWEALTH of Israel. In ancient Israel, there existed Israelites, Ger Toshav (resident aliens) and visiting aliens. Not everyone in Israel was part of the People of Israel, although they were part of the commonwealth.

Paul speaks of believers being grafted on. True that. But a grafted branch does not change its species. Wild olive (olea oleaster) does not become a true olive tree (olea europea) whether you graft it or not.

Honestly, I feel like many Gentiles have an inferiority complex! There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a Gentile. You are not second class believers. God loves you just as much. So go eat some lobster and pork ribs, and go to a ball game on Saturday, and rejoice!

 

[Devin P]

We Jews will sometimes say to our Gentile friends who show an affinity for the commandments or Israel, "You have the heart of a Jew," or "You are more Jewish than many Jews I know!" It doesn't mean we actually think they are Jews.

In the same respect, Paul is speaking figuratively when he compliments the Gentile believers in the churches and tells them they are spiritual Jews because they have circumcised hearts. Paul does NOT mean they are actually Jews or that Gentile believers are part of Israel.

I'd have to disagree here.

Eph 2:12 that at that time you were without Messiah, excluded from the citizenship of Yisra’ěl and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no expectation and without Elohim in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Messiah יהושע you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of the Messiah.
Eph 2:14 For He is our peace, who has made both one, and having broken down the partition of the barrier,

In verse 14, what partition? What barrier? Who was made one? Who were the "both" he was referring to? He's not just making up concepts, he's talking about how the prophecy from Ezekiel 37 was fulfilled. He quotes from it, word for word regarding the phrases used in that chapter, and talks about how Jesus fulfilled it for us. Which, according to Paul's words, and according to the prophecy he's mentioning regarding the greeks he's writing to, would make them, and us, Israel. Otherwise there'd be no reason to say what he's saying, and referencing what he referenced. It'd make no sense.

The Ekklesia is part of the COMMONWEALTH of Israel. In ancient Israel, there existed Israelites, Ger Toshav (resident aliens) and visiting aliens. Not everyone in Israel was part of the People of Israel, although they were part of the commonwealth.

Also, "Ekklesia" simply means "gathering" or "congregation". In the septuagint, when it's referring to Israel, it's also used, countless times to refer to the congregation of Israel. The Ekklesia isn't just the "church". The whole concept of the "church" and "Israel" being separate, is simply theology, and has no basis in actual scripture. You've got people who were in covenant - the hebrews, and those outside of the covenant. Eventually God made the Hebrews Israel, which consisted of 12 tribes. They split into two, and Judah ended up remaining more faithful. BUT, the only reason they weren't divorced, was because God promised to create a savior out of their line, otherwise they would've been divorced just as Israel was.

Paul speaks of believers being grafted on. True that. But a grafted branch does not change its species. Wild olive (olea oleaster) does not become a true olive tree (olea europea) whether you graft it or not.

I can agree to this, as far as the statement goes. That we are grafted in, but the thing is. There is no difference between what a wild olive tree produces, and what a good olive tree produces. They're both olive trees. They both produce olives. The only difference, is that the wild olive tree is without a caretaker. It's growing as it pleases, going it's own way with no caretaker to prune and shape it. With no caretaker to cleanse it of pests and diseases. The good olive tree however, still produces olives, but it's being pruned and cared for, watched over and hedged about by the caretaker. So therefore, the only difference when we're grafted in, is that we now are subject to the caretaker's will, whereas before we were subject to our own. We still produce olives, just as we did before, but now we are under the watchful eye of the Caretaker, whereas before we were under the oppressive boot of the elements.

Honestly, I feel like many Gentiles have an inferiority complex! There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a Gentile. You are not second class believers. God loves you just as much. So go eat some lobster and pork ribs, and go to a ball game on Saturday, and rejoice!

Also, no inferiority complex at all. I'm not jewish, I'm part of Israel. The 12 tribes will be brought back again, and when they are I'll be assigned accordingly.

Romans 10:12 - For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

No difference means do difference. This is why Kaleb made it into the promised land, and why Rehab was considered part of Israel, literally in the Messiah's bloodline. There is no scripture saying that gentiles cannot become Israel, you'll find it nowhere in scripture. You will however find it in books and oral traditions written by men. You'll find the barriers you're trying to establish being found in the Talmud, the Halakha, or at the time of Jesus the "oral law", but that's simply a tradition that is being placed above the word of God. I'm not saying that this is your fault by any means, it's a tradition. I was in the tradition of my fathers until He called me out of them as well, and I hope He will do the same for you as well, but the Talmud and the Kabbalah are really the only places you'll find the idea that gentiles aren't to ever be considered Israel.

Not to mention, you're not supposed to advocate sin, and breaking the laws you're trying to encourage me to break, would be advocating sin.

Exodus 12:49 - One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 24:22 - You are to have the same standard of law for the foreign resident and the native; for I am the LORD your God.'"

Numbers 15:16 - The same law and the same ordinance will apply both to you and the foreigner residing with you."

 

[Devin P]

It's just like, how today, Jews consider you only to be Jewish if your mother practices Judaism. Where is this in Torah? We're supposed to be led by Elohim, and Elohim alone. This stipulation, is no where in Torah. This idea comes from oral tradition, and can be found in the halakha, but not in scripture. I've read through it (Torah) enough times to know from the examples set in the stories, that there were those naturally in the bloodlines, and there were those that weren't. God showed more respect to whoever desired to keep His commands, always. It didn't matter if they were technically a bloodline Israelite or not. The only thing that mattered to Him, was that they kept His commands. If they kept His commands, and walked as He instructed them, He loved and kept them. If they didn't, they were rejected, because they rejected Him.

The concept that you can't be Jewish, or (as it's actually implied) an Israelite, if you don't have a mother who is a practicing Jew, is found nowhere in the scriptures. It's a tradition, that places itself above the words found in Torah.

Israel, can come back now after being scattered amongst the gentiles all throughout the world, because their Husband, God, died on the cross, freeing them from His law that says that if a wife leaves her husband, marries another then leaving that second husband, she can't rejoin the first husband. She would be cursed to this law until the husband died, and this is why Jesus died. So we would be free from that curse, keeping us out of covenant with Him, and He was raised so we could again remarry Him, rejoining Him in an everlasting covenant. This is the fulness of the gentiles mentioned in Romans 11 and Genesis 48. This prophecy has started to happen and fill out as we speak.

 

[Dkh587]

God loves you just as much. So go eat some lobster and pork ribs, and go to a ball game on Saturday, and rejoice!

 

[Devin P]

I don't think I've ever liked Oprah as much as I do in this gif.

 

[Open Heart]

In verse 14, what partition? What barrier?

In the OT, only the Jews received God's revelation. In the NT, all humanity receives the revelation of the New Covenant. That's it. It's that simple. It doesn't mean that there are no more Jews or no more Gentiles.

The whole concept of the "church" and "Israel" being separate, is simply theology, and has no basis in actual scripture.

I can't disagree more strongly. Each has an entirely separate covenant. Israel has the Mosaic covenant, which promises the Land of Canaan. The Church has the New Covenant which promises eternal life. You can't possibly be more different than that.

I can agree to this, as far as the statement goes. That we are grafted in, but the thing is. There is no difference between what a wild olive tree produces, and what a good olive tree produces. They're both olive trees. They both produce olives.

But this is NOT true. Wild olive, olea oleaster, does NOT produce olives or any sort of fruit, even when grafted. It is a DIFFERENT SPECIES than regular olive, olea europa.

But God loves the wild olive just as much. He loved and died for the wild olive, forgives it, and brings it eternal life, no different than the regular olive.

The difference is that the regular olive has an earlier covenant that the wild olive is not bound to.

Also, no inferiority complex at all. I'm not jewish, I'm part of Israel. The 12 tribes will be brought back again, and when they are I'll be assigned accordingly.

I can't begin to tell you how this is the worst sort of misappropriation that there can possibly be. You will never be part of Israel any more than you'll be Chinese (assuming you're not). What I can't figure out is why you would even want to be!!!!!! Being part of Israel means taking on the Mosaic covenant. Why would you want that (that's the question asked in Acts 15, and the answer ultimately given was don't bother the Gentiles with it).

Rehab and Ruth are exceptions because they are CONVERTS. They were born Gentiles but died Jews. They came and not only did they say, "Your God shall be my God," but they also said, "Your people shall be my people." If you want to be a Jew, then convert. The Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Council offers conversion to Judaism (meaning you would become ethnically a Jew) for those believing Gentiles that have an extreme calling to Torah and Israel. It (the MJRC) has Rabbis through both the UMJC and MJAA (the two largest Messianic Jewish denominations).

Not to mention, you're not supposed to advocate sin, and breaking the laws you're trying to encourage me to break, would be advocating sin.

Quote where I have advocating breaking a single Law by any Jew, or law (smallcase) by any Gentile.

Exodus 12:49 - One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

The word that is translated as "stranger" is GER, and the Ger Toshav, or resident Ger, is essentially a CONVERT. IOW, they have done what Ruth and Rahab did and become a Jew. It's saying make no distinction between a born Jew and a convert.

 

[Devin P]

In the OT, only the Jews received God's revelation. In the NT, all humanity receives the revelation of the New Covenant. That's it. It's that simple. It doesn't mean that there are no more Jews or no more Gentiles.



I can't disagree more strongly. Each has an entirely separate covenant. Israel has the Mosaic covenant, which promises the Land of Canaan. The Church has the New Covenant which promises eternal life. You can't possibly be more different than that.



But this is NOT true. Wild olive, olea oleaster, does NOT produce olives or any sort of fruit, even when grafted. It is a DIFFERENT SPECIES than regular olive, olea europa.

But God loves the wild olive just as much. He loved and died for the wild olive, forgives it, and brings it eternal life, no different than the regular olive.

The difference is that the regular olive has an earlier covenant that the wild olive is not bound to.

I can't begin to tell you how this is the worst sort of misappropriation that there can possibly be. You will never be part of Israel any more than you'll be Chinese (assuming you're not). What I can't figure out is why you would even want to be!!!!!! Being part of Israel means taking on the Mosaic covenant. Why would you want that (that's the question asked in Acts 15, and the answer ultimately given was don't bother the Gentiles with it).

Rehab and Ruth are exceptions because they are CONVERTS. They were born Gentiles but died Jews. They came and not only did they say, "Your God shall be my God," but they also said, "Your people shall be my people." If you want to be a Jew, then convert. The Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Council offers conversion to Judaism (meaning you would become ethnically a Jew) for those believing Gentiles that have an extreme calling to Torah and Israel. It (the MJRC) has Rabbis through both the UMJC and MJAA (the two largest Messianic Jewish denominations).

Quote where I have advocating breaking a single Law by any Jew, or law (smallcase) by any Gentile.

The word that is translated as "stranger" is GER, and the Ger Toshav, or resident Ger, is essentially a CONVERT. IOW, they have done what Ruth and Rahab did and become a Jew. It's saying make no distinction between a born Jew and a convert.

In the OT, it was not just the "Jews" that received the revelation. Abraham wasn't Jewish. Noah wasn't Jewish. Moses wasn't Jewish. Jonathan wasn't Jewish. Samuel wasn't Jewish. Aaron the high priest wasn't Jewish. None of the Egyptians that were grafted in were Jewish.

The revelation was given to those that loved God. Israel. Or more appropriately - Hebrews. Just as those in the NT. Both covenants are the same. They both are designed to be in the land of Israel, being a nation of priests before God. Both covenants intend for this. The only difference is this time around when we're all brought back into the land after Jesus returns, this time, we won't reject Him be refusing to be His priests.

Israel is a nation and group of 12 tribes. Jews aren't the entirety of Israel. They're only 1/12th of Israel.

Romans 2:28-29 - 28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 9:7-8 - 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The children of the promise are those that are Jews inwardly, or rather, those that are circumcised in the heart. It's the heart that matters. So those that desire to obey His word, as opposed to traditions and doctrines and commands of men, these are God's children, and are children of the promise. Whether gentile or Jew. There is no difference.

1 Corinthians 7:19 - Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Being a Jew or Gentile means nothing. What matters is keeping His commands. The Gentiles aren't exempt from keeping torah simply because we've been lied to about it for the past 2000 years. 1 John 3:4, you're advocating that I eat unclean, against the word of Elohim. That is advocating sin. You said for me to break the Sabbath. Sabbath is made for man, not the Jews alone. That is advocating that I break Elohim's eternal qodesh day appointed for all of man to observe.

 

[Open Heart]

In the OT, it was not just the "Jews" that received the revelation. Abraham wasn't Jewish. Noah wasn't Jewish. Moses wasn't Jewish. Jonathan wasn't Jewish. Samuel wasn't Jewish. Aaron the high priest wasn't Jewish. None of the Egyptians that were grafted in were Jewish.

Look, if you are going to post with me, you are going to have to deal with the fact that I use Hebrew, Israelite, and Jew interchangably. Noah was not a Jew. But Abraham, Moses, Jonathan, Samual, Aaron? Jews.

There is nothing second class about being a Gentile. Jews and Gentiles stand equal before God. No Gentile believer needs to feel that they have to be an Israelite in order to have worth.

When Paul talks about "a Jew inwardly," I get it. There is a lot to be said for kavanah. I'm not sure if I said this already, but sometimes we Jews will meet a Gentile so drawn to Torah that we'll say to them, "You have the heart of a Jew," or, "You are more Jewish than the Jews I know!" But we aren't actually meaning that they are a Jew and not a Gentile. And neither is Paul. You have to know when someone is speaking figuratively rather than literally.

 

[Devin P]

Look, if you are going to post with me, you are going to have to deal with the fact that I use Hebrew, Israelite, and Jew interchangably. Noah was not a Jew. But Abraham, Moses, Jonathan, Samual, Aaron? Jews.

There is nothing second class about being a Gentile. Jews and Gentiles stand equal before God. No Gentile believer needs to feel that they have to be an Israelite in order to have worth.

When Paul talks about "a Jew inwardly," I get it. There is a lot to be said for kavanah. I'm not sure if I said this already, but sometimes we Jews will meet a Gentile so drawn to Torah that we'll say to them, "You have the heart of a Jew," or, "You are more Jewish than the Jews I know!" But we aren't actually meaning that they are a Jew and not a Gentile. And neither is Paul. You have to know when someone is speaking figuratively rather than literally.

Abraham wasn't a Jew. Jews are from Judah. The son of Jacob. Who wasn't born in the time of Abraham. It'd literally of been impossible for Abraham to be considered Jewish, because Jews didn't exist in his day. He, as well as both of us, was an Ivrim (Hebrew)

Moses was of Jacobs son Levi. Moses was a Levite. Not a Jew.

Jonathon was of the son of Ephraim. He was an Ephramite. Not a Jew.

Samuel was also an Ephramite.

Aaron was a Levite. These are not Jews. Kaleb however, was a Jew. Although he was originally born a gentile. Because of his faith, he was grafted in.

Paul was not speaking figuratively. He literally said it doesn't matter whether you are jew or gentile, but what does matter is that you keep the commands.

Gentiles are demanded to keep Torah like everyone else. Otherwise Zechariah 14 makes no sense as to why God would destroy the gentiles for NOT observing Sukkoth.

 

[Open Heart]

Abraham wasn't a Jew. Jews are from Judah. The son of Jacob. Who wasn't born in the time of Abraham. It'd literally of been impossible for Abraham to be considered Jewish, because Jews didn't exist in his day. He, as well as both of us, was an Ivrim (Hebrew)

Moses was of Jacobs son Levi. Moses was a Levite. Not a Jew.

Jonathon was of the son of Ephraim. He was an Ephramite. Not a Jew.

Samuel was also an Ephramite.

Aaron was a Levite. These are not Jews. Kaleb however, was a Jew. Although he was originally born a gentile. Because of his faith, he was grafted in.

Paul was not speaking figuratively. He literally said it doesn't matter whether you are jew or gentile, but what does matter is that you keep the commands.

Gentiles are demanded to keep Torah like everyone else. Otherwise Zechariah 14 makes no sense as to why God would destroy the gentiles for NOT observing Sukkoth.

1. Who is a Jew?
Jew refers to the Kingdom of Judah (the Southern Kingdom). It was made up of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levi, and refugees from all the other tribes from the Northern Kingdom of Israel. In other words, the Kingdom of Judah had Israelites of all the 12 tribes, even if it was disproportionately Judah, and is all that remains of those 12 tribes. Therefore when we say Jew, we are referring to all of Israel.

Jew does not refer to the tribe of Judah.

2. It is prophesied that the day will come when the Nations will keep Sukkot. It is not commanded of them. The Torah was not given to the Nations -- Gentiles do not need to keep kosher, etc. If you read the Torah, you will find that it says over and over, "And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak to the Children of Israel..." It never says to speak to the Nations.

3. If you want to keep the 613 commandments and observe Sukkot, God bless you!!! I think that's wonderful. I just think that you are doing it voluntarily, and not out of obligation.

 

[Devin P]

1. Who is a Jew?
Jew refers to the Kingdom of Judah (the Southern Kingdom). It was made up of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levi, and refugees from all the other tribes from the Northern Kingdom of Israel. In other words, the Kingdom of Judah had Israelites of all the 12 tribes, even if it was disproportionately Judah, and is all that remains of those 12 tribes. Therefore when we say Jew, we are referring to all of Israel.

Jew does not refer to the tribe of Judah.

Somewhat true. The southern kingdom of Judah, the House of Judah, was made up of all of Judah, all of Benjamin, and a small segment of Levi. Some of the 10 tribes came and converted into Judah, true, but the remaining 10 tribes as a whole have yet to return. This was prophesied to happen in the last days, and hasn't yet happened. They were mixed amongst the gentiles, prophesied to forget about God's law, prophesied to remember His Torah, that which they once considered strange. Prophesied to realize that they had inherited the lies and traditions of their fathers, worshipping false gods, only to ditch these falsehoods to come back into His Torah, His Truth, until the day He brought them back into Israel, and reunited them with their big brother, Judah.

So I'd still have to disagree. There are still at this point in time two houses. Judah, and Israel. Israel is still scattered, coming to realize who we are. You, Judah, aren't. You know where you're at. You can say Jew, and mean Israel, but it'd be biblically speaking, not entirely true. It's like saying all Californians are Americans. True, they are. But, you cannot say all Americans are Californians. It doesn't work. California is a small part of a America, not the entire thing.

2. It is prophesied that the day will come when the Nations will keep Sukkot. It is not commanded of them. The Torah was not given to the Nations -- Gentiles do not need to keep kosher, etc. If you read the Torah, you will find that it says over and over, "And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak to the Children of Israel..." It never says to speak to the Nations.

Again, this isn't entirely true. That prophesy in Zechariah 14, talks about God literally demanding that the gentiles observe Sukkoth. If they refuse, and don't come up to Jerusalem to observe the festival, they wouldn't receive rain in their lands for an entire year. If then they continue in their rebellion, in that they still refuse to celebrate the feast that next year, it's written that He will destroy them with the same plagues that He destroyed Egypt with.

3. If you want to keep the 613 commandments and observe Sukkot, God bless you!!! I think that's wonderful. I just think that you are doing it voluntarily, and not out of obligation.

Oh, well thank you for your blessings and kind words!

I'm not really trying to keep the 613 though. It's impossible based on the scriptures and stipulations given for each command, because a lot of them were given to people that I am not. I'm not in the land of Israel, I'm not a woman, a farmer, married, a levite, a priest, etc, etc. There's only really 150-200 for me to keep being who I am, but I don't think it's obligated though. I have the blessing of being able to. He's died for us, to bless me with the wonderful opportunity to be brought back into covenant with Him. If I however, wish to accept that covenant, I am to obey Him. So, it's not an obligation, but a privilege.

 

[Devin P]

1. Who is a Jew?
Jew refers to the Kingdom of Judah (the Southern Kingdom). It was made up of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levi, and refugees from all the other tribes from the Northern Kingdom of Israel. In other words, the Kingdom of Judah had Israelites of all the 12 tribes, even if it was disproportionately Judah, and is all that remains of those 12 tribes. Therefore when we say Jew, we are referring to all of Israel.

Jew does not refer to the tribe of Judah.

2. It is prophesied that the day will come when the Nations will keep Sukkot. It is not commanded of them. The Torah was not given to the Nations -- Gentiles do not need to keep kosher, etc. If you read the Torah, you will find that it says over and over, "And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak to the Children of Israel..." It never says to speak to the Nations.

3. If you want to keep the 613 commandments and observe Sukkot, God bless you!!! I think that's wonderful. I just think that you are doing it voluntarily, and not out of obligation.

As psalm 23 says, He turns back our beings. So that, not even those that love Him love Him of their own ability, but of the gift of our Father. Therefore, my obedience to His covenant of promise, isn't my own doing, but His gift working through me. Even my obedience isn't of my own accord, but His will working through me. Therefore my obedience to His word, isn't out of obligation, but out of thankfulness. The thankfulness that's a result of His endless mercies, generosity and loving kindnesses.

 

[Open Heart]

As psalm 23 says, He turns back our beings. So that, not even those that love Him love Him of their own ability, but of the gift of our Father. Therefore, my obedience to His covenant of promise, isn't my own doing, but His gift working through me. Even my obedience isn't of my own accord, but His will working through me. Therefore my obedience to His word, isn't out of obligation, but out of thankfulness. The thankfulness that's a result of His endless mercies, generosity and loving kindnesses.

Beautiful

 

[Open Heart]

Somewhat true. The southern kingdom of Judah, the House of Judah, was made up of all of Judah, all of Benjamin, and a small segment of Levi. Some of the 10 tribes came and converted into Judah, true, but the remaining 10 tribes as a whole have yet to return. This was prophesied to happen in the last days, and hasn't yet happened. They were mixed amongst the gentiles, prophesied to forget about God's law, prophesied to remember His Torah, that which they once considered strange. Prophesied to realize that they had inherited the lies and traditions of their fathers, worshipping false gods, only to ditch these falsehoods to come back into His Torah, His Truth, until the day He brought them back into Israel, and reunited them with their big brother, Judah.

So I'd still have to disagree. There are still at this point in time two houses. Judah, and Israel. Israel is still scattered, coming to realize who we are. You, Judah, aren't. You know where you're at. You can say Jew, and mean Israel, but it'd be biblically speaking, not entirely true. It's like saying all Californians are Americans. True, they are. But, you cannot say all Americans are Californians. It doesn't work. California is a small part of a America, not the entire thing.

I understand what you mean, but I stand by what I have said.

I don't know what you mean when you say that the refugees from the Northern Kingdom to the South "converted." Converted to what? They were all the Children of Israel and worshiped the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and were bound by the same covenant. Everything else is irrelevant or tribal traditions.

As regards those of the Northern Kingdom who were absorbed into the Nations, they are gone until Messiah returns. Ezekiel's vision showed them as dry bones. Yes, someday they will again have flesh upon them. But right now? Today? They are nothing but dead dry bones.

Again, this isn't entirely true. That prophesy in Zechariah 14, talks about God literally demanding that the gentiles observe Sukkoth.

My wording was ambiguous. Let me clear it up.
1. Some day, in the Messianic Era, the Nations will observe Sukkot. Zechariah speaks of this. It is a command.
2. However, right NOW, there is no obligation for Gentiles to observe Sukkot.
3. If they do, it's nice.

I'm not really trying to keep the 613 though. It's impossible based on the scriptures and stipulations given for each command, because a lot of them were given to people that I am not. I'm not in the land of Israel, I'm not a woman, a farmer, married, a levite, a priest, etc, etc. There's only really 150-200 for me to keep being who I am, but I don't think it's obligated though. I have the blessing of being able to. He's died for us, to bless me with the wonderful opportunity to be brought back into covenant with Him. If I however, wish to accept that covenant, I am to obey Him. So, it's not an obligation, but a privilege.

I think you have a wonderful outlook, and the Lord will surely bless you.