Paul in Galatians

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I'm quite certain that uncircumcism of heart does not relate to either Jews or Gentiles but to unbelievers. Certain also that Jews and gentiles becoming one is the foundation of Christianity in which case neither is in the position of keeping the law. Contrary to what some are espousing.

 

[Halbhh]

I'm quite certain that uncircumcism of heart does not relate to either Jews or Gentiles but to unbelievers. Certain also that Jews and gentiles becoming one is the foundation of Christianity in which case neither is in the position of keeping the law. Contrary to what some are espousing.

Maybe it would help to lay out the missing pieces we each are using but haven't said, so that they won't be guessed at wrongly (which is only natural to do).

Using my own paraphrasing (which will always be less perfect than scripture, inevitably) --

Here's what I understand, and where I'm at --
1. We are only saved if we believe in Christ as the Son of God, risen, our redeemer, that we rely on for our salvation.
2. Because we truly believe in Him, we are changed, and become better than we were, over time.
3. We continue to be changed, over time, by our faith, and the power of communion.
4. We continue to be changed, over time, by our faith and by listening to His words, such as His commandments, like "love one another", and by the parables also, such as the parable of the unforgiving debtor, which teaches us to totally forgive even in our heart. Because we truly listen, then we begin to do as He said (if we truly listened). Sometimes this is harder to do.
5. We are still in the condition of having real freedom to choose and act.
6. So we will sometimes fall into temptations, like social pressure to exclude someone, for instance, as Peter did towards the uncircumcised gentile converts, for instance, until later Peter changed, and reversed himself, and clearly said that physical circumcision is not necessary. So we can not only stumble in clear sins, but also in excluding brothers and sisters for mere judging their actions too finely (not about flagrant sinning, but about mere disagreements on subtle points).
7. Because we can stumble and fall under temptations, our Lord gave us a way to pray for aid. This is of extreme value, because it's possible to stray far from Him if we do not have divine aid to deliver us from evil. He gave us the prayer in Matthew 6 because we actually do need it (instead of not really needing it). Failing to move out of a sin is possible even for a believer because it's possible to ignore our conscience.
8. Because it's possible to ignore our conscience, it's possible to even eventually fail in our faith itself even -- as He told us in Matthew 7:24-27.
9. To avoid this collapse, we must actually do just as He said in Matthew 7:24-27.
10. Because of this, faith without works will indeed lead to death. Because at times we have real choices, we actually need to know what to do, because sometimes we can't manage to listen to the quieter voice inside, due to external noise.
11. As He told us in John chapter 15, we can only do true, real fruit only by remaining in Him, that is dwelling in His Words, that is his actual words He said to us, hearing them, listening to them, taking them into our hearts. There isn't any substitute I know of to replace this essential listening and hearing --
"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me."
12. The listening/hearing isn't automatic, but we must actually look to Him by bringing our minds back to Him, an action on our part. We must listen to Him as an action on our part. He saves us, and this happens if we follow Him. Sometimes this is harder to do due to temptations, such as a temptation to strike at someone in some way, or be greedy, etc.
13. Because we do stumble at times, we must confess in our hearts to our Father, and turn from our sins. When we confess this way, we are forgiven and restored. As it were, we are turning from that path of that sin, and back onto His way, the "narrow road", and with aid from above.
14. Of great aid to us are Christ's emphatic and sharp warnings and commands, such as --
"Forgive, and you will be forgiven."
"The measure you use will be measured to you."
And the very sharp warnings and commands in Matthew 25:31-46 for instance, which help us understand that these are not optional extras, not extra treasure in heaven, but essential and fundamental requirements. (if you are the one nearby to the person in need, and they are not already being taken care of, then it's for you to act)


I'm sure I didn't word this perfectly (scripture is better), and likely left out even something I indeed believe and do, but I think these are many of the key things as best I know them so far.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

....
6. So we will sometimes fall into temptations, like social pressure to exclude someone, for instance, as Peter did towards the uncircumcised gentile converts, for instance, until later Peter changed, and reversed himself, and clearly said that physical circumcision is not necessary. So we can not only stumble in clear sins, but also in excluding brothers and sisters for mere judging their actions too finely (not about flagrant sinning, but about mere disagreements on subtle points).
'''.

Throwing a group of people under the bus is nowhere considered to be diplomatic use of an ambassador of Christ. Sorry but didn't get past that in the reading. Whatever justification followed that didn't register because it's a false premise that leads to false claims.

 

[Halbhh]

Throwing a group of people under the bus is nowhere considered to be diplomatic use of an ambassador of Christ. Sorry but didn't get past that in the reading. Whatever justification followed that didn't register because it's a false premise that leads to false claims.

Whoops! Forgive me if somehow that seemed anything other than for all of us, for me in particular. I was laying out things I have to know and put into practice, as best as I understand them. Yes, every Christian, no less, needs to know not to exclude people on points of doctrine. If we always followed this the Church would have reformed in the 1520s instead of excommunicating Luther, for instance. We would not have many denominations. We would not have contentions inside churches. Even Peter did it, and I'm sure I have at times in my past, but I'm learning, with help from grace, not to. It's essential. Please forgive, and if you like read on (or not!).

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Whoops! Forgive me if somehow that seemed anything other than for all of us, for me in particular. I was laying out things I have to know and put into practice, as best as I understand them. Yes, every Christian, no less, needs to know not to exclude people on points of doctrine. If we always followed this the Church would have reformed in the 1520s instead of excommunicating Luther, for instance. We would not have many denominations. We would not have contentions inside churches. Even Peter did it, and I'm sure I have at times in my past, but I'm learning, with help from grace, not to. It's essential. Please forgive, and if you like read on (or not!).

For me I don't care what indoctrination anyone has. I look for the Spirit in what they're saying. If it sounds like bad news I either say something, note that and walk away from but it's not something that I spend a lot of time thinking about. Or if it seem to be just a matter of faith and the level of truth I sometimes think on those things as prayer matters. But substituting law for grace is blasphemy

 

[disciple1]

The law misused is in opposition to Christ because of flesh that fights the spirit ..

Galatians 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
“But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!​

The cross has nullified the distinctive "I" of the flesh that seeks to keep the law along with the lust that fights the spirit.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.​

In order for Christ to replace the law and for the Holy Spirit may replace the flesh.

Being in the Spirit negates the lust of the flesh, that is how a Christian is to live but there's an added element ... that is walking in the Spirit ..

Acts 21:24
Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law.
Romans 4:12
and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.​

Walking in accordance to God .. a walk that follows the Spirit as the elementary rule, the basic principle.

Romans chapter 4
13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.


Galatians chapter 5 verse 6
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love.

 

[Halbhh]

For me I don't care what indoctrination anyone has. I look for the Spirit in what they're saying. If it sounds like bad news I either say something, note that and walk away from but it's not something that I spend a lot of time thinking about. Or if it seem to be just a matter of faith and the level of truth I sometimes think on those things as prayer matters. But substituting law for grace is blasphemy

Sounds good. I'm happy all day long to say we are to "follow Christ", and not use the word 'law' any differently than Paul in the instances he is talking about the Old Covenant. While Paul did use the phrase "law of Christ", and did write Romans 3:31, we could just try not to get too convoluted, but tell people about what Christ said to do, without any reference to the word 'law', though we may have to repeat His own Words about what happens to those who follow on the other hand work "lawlessness" as He said, when needed, of course.
English Standard Version
And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

This is another of His several sharp warnings about that we can't merely believe and not do.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Sounds good. I'm happy all day long to say we are to "follow Christ", and not use the word 'law' any differently than Paul in the instances he is talking about the Old Covenant. While Paul did use the phrase "law of Christ", and did write Romans 3:31, we could just try not to get too convoluted, but tell people about what Christ said to do, without any reference to the word 'law', though we may have to repeat His own Words about what happens to those who follow on the other hand work "lawlessness" as He said, when needed, of course.

I just went blank on scripture of Christ talking about lawlessness. Could you refresh my memory please,

 

[Halbhh]

I just went blank on scripture of Christ talking about lawlessness. Could you refresh my memory please,

English Standard Version
And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

This is another of His several sharp warnings about that we can't merely believe and not do.

But perhaps the most helpful, really, to all of us (especially me and each other person) is Matthew 7:24-27

which comes immediately next, beginning with the connecting word "Therefore"

All of this is with the context that we are believing, coming from and in faith. Thus we are on the vine, as in the invaluable help to understand in John chapter 15.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love.

Love expressed thru natural means is still the fruit of knowledge.

 

[disciple1]

Love expressed thru natural means is still the fruit of knowledge.

Galatians chapter 5 verse 6
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love.

Love expressed thru natural means is still the fruit of knowledge.

Romans chapter 2 verse 14
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.


Love is the only thing that matters, God is love.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Romans chapter 2 verse 14
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.


Love is the only thing that matters, God is love.

I've never really understood that verse. It sounds in a sence that they wouldn't need grafting in .. That wouldn't be lawlessness tho ...

 

[Halbhh]

I've never really understood that verse. It sounds in a sence that they wouldn't need grafting in .. That wouldn't be lawlessness tho ...

Well, one of the questions that comes up (and perhaps came up back when Paul was writing) is: What about people that didn't hear the gospel, didn't know of Christ (accurately)? Before in chapter 1, Paul begins talking about one category of those without Christ, but there is also another category of those who don't know of Him, those that do not deny God (thus aren't like those in chapter 1), and/or also try to do right, but don't know of the true gospel (for instance, Muslims could be in that situation; and Jewish believers not yet knowing the accurate gospel). So this interesting section, every verse from 6 through 16, together, comprise what their situation is, lacking Christ, but still believing in God and/or trying to do right. Of course, we know Paul is just getting started talking about the law though.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Well, one of the questions that comes up (and perhaps came up back when Paul was writing) is: What about people that didn't hear the gospel, didn't know of Christ (accurately)? Before in chapter 1, Paul begins talking about one category of those without Christ, but there is also another category of those who don't know of Him, those that do not deny God as in chapter 1, and/or also try to do right, but don't know of the true gospel (for instance, Muslims could be in that situation). So this interesting section, every verse from 6 through 16, together, comprise what their situation is, lacking Christ, but still believing in God and/or trying to do right.

That's basically the situation of Apollos who was of the baptism of repentance but hadn't heard of the work of Christ. The book of Hebrews goes beyond that concept as far as law and grace.

 

[Halbhh]

That's basically the situation of Apollos who was of the baptism of repentance but hadn't heard of the work of Christ. The book of Hebrews goes beyond that concept as far as law and grace.

Not sure about Apollos (the Apollos in Acts 18?). But definitely Hebrews is so rich for us about righteousness from faith, in the wonderful chapter 11.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Not sure about Apollos (the Apollos in Acts 18?). But definitely Hebrews is so rich for us about righteousness from faith, in the wonderful chapter 11.

Faith according to grace takes us back to Galatians chapter 4

 

[mark kennedy]

The law misused is in opposition to Christ because of flesh that fights the spirit ..

Galatians 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
“But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!​

The cross has nullified the distinctive "I" of the flesh that seeks to keep the law along with the lust that fights the spirit.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.​

In order for Christ to replace the law and for the Holy Spirit may replace the flesh.

Being in the Spirit negates the lust of the flesh, that is how a Christian is to live but there's an added element ... that is walking in the Spirit ..

Acts 21:24
Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law.
Romans 4:12
and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.​

Walking in accordance to God .. a walk that follows the Spirit as the elementary rule, the basic principle.

God is full of surprises, one of them was the inclusion of the Gentiles. Another one was the gospel, salvation is by grace through faith apart from works of the Law. At Caesarea Peter preaches to the Gentiles and the baptism of the Holy Spirit falls on the Gentiles. Behind the scenes God is working with Paul and Barnabas, eventually bringing them to Antioch of Syria with a mission, to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles in Cyprus and Galatia. Meanwhile in Jerusalem the Pharisees, professing believers, stood up and demanded that Gentiles must be circumcised in order to be saved, Peter stood up and told them the Law was a burden neither they nor their fathers could bear. That the Gentiles were purifying themselves through faith and we should not impose a works righteousness on them.

Paul and Barnabas had just returned from the first missionary journey. Peter had a problem, he was like a junior high school kid that would hang out with the nerds but when the cool kids came around he acted like he wanted nothing to do with them. Paul calls him a hypocrite to his face, saying how is it that you live like a Gentile and compel us to act as Jews. They all manage to work it out but Paul is white hot about this issue. Galatians is among his most scathing writings.

Some things about Galatians worth mentioning at this point, it's the one book in the New Testament no one seriously questions Paul wrote. A profoundly zealous and pious Jew is now the Apostle to the Gentiles, another one of God's surprises. The villains of the Gospel accounts, from among their number, one of them arises to teach how the Law relates to Gentile believers.

In the wake of the crisis point of redemptive history, God calls and sanctifies perhaps the most unlikely champion of the grace of God. It's in Romans, it's in Hebrews, if you are willing to do the work it's in the prophets and even in the Law:

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. (Rom. 3:21-22)
​

As we look at the book of Galatians I thought it might be informative to take a look at the cultural and historical context of the book.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. (Rom. 3:21-22)
​

As we look at the book of Galatians I thought it might be informative to take a look at the cultural and historical context of the book.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Within the context of phariseic believers they wouldn't be those of James the brother of Jesus. They would have been those that forced inactment of vows that led to him being in prison and perhaps to a more scathing report. Ignoring the warnings from various sources via the Holy Spirit to not go to Jerusalem may have helped to streamline the message too tho.
Thanks for the biblical setting. It helps a lot with context.

 

[mark kennedy]

Within the context of phariseic believers they wouldn't be those of James the brother of Jesus. They would have been those that forced inactment of vows that led to him being in prison and perhaps to a more scathing report. Ignoring the warnings from various sources via the Holy Spirit to not go to Jerusalem may have helped to streamline the message too tho.
Thanks for the biblical setting. It helps a lot with context.

Well thanks for that but the warning to Paul not go to Jerusalem were later. As far as the Law it's hard to imagine how the Jews must have felt that grace is going to replace or fulfill the Law, they had lived in the system their who lives and for generations. James recommended that a letter be wrote and it was a little different then what Paul delivered. Paul comes down hard on the Jews and the Gentiles who were being persuaded that they must follow the Law. They would see it again in Paul's letter to the Romans and hear a dire warning in Hebrews. One of the most interesting things is that justification by grace through faith is and was the Apostolic doctrine, it was the message of the first century church and ultimately even the Law and the Prophets were in agreement.

I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. I do not set aside the grace of God. For if righteousness comes through the Law, Christ died for nothing.” (Gal. 2:20-21)
​

It was always there, the sweet savor of grace through faith, the faithful strained to hear but only so much was known. But now, we know it is by grace through faith and if it was possible for us to be saved by works of the Law then Christ died for nothing. Let's not forget that.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Well thanks for that but the warning to Paul not go to Jerusalem were later. As far as the Law it's hard to imagine how the Jews must have felt that grace is going to replace or fulfill the Law, they had lived in the system their who lives and for generations. James recommended that a letter be wrote and it was a little different then what Paul delivered. Paul comes down hard on the Jews and the Gentiles who were being persuaded that they must follow the Law. They would see it again in Paul's letter to the Romans and hear a dire warning in Hebrews. One of the most interesting things is that justification by grace through faith is and was the Apostolic doctrine, it was the message of the first century church and ultimately even the Law and the Prophets were in agreement.

I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. I do not set aside the grace of God. For if righteousness comes through the Law, Christ died for nothing.” (Gal. 2:20-21)
​

It was always there, the sweet savor of grace through faith, the faithful strained to hear but only so much was known. But now, we know it is by grace through faith and if it was possible for us to be saved by works of the Law then Christ died for nothing. Let's not forget that.

Grace and peace,
Mark

It's not hard to forget the body when one is part of it. Maybe it wasn't Paul's anger you were speaking of?