Paul fought the circumcision, Messianic Judaism.

[StephanieSomer]

but the verse you quoted, agrees with me, the circumcision were the Judaizers, Luke said so too in Acts 11.

I didn't quote a verse. I mentioned reading ALL of Paul's writings which speak on the subject of "circumcision". If you're only interested in specific verses to support what you're saying, so be it. I wasn't speaking on any specific.

 

[bugkiller]

That's a bit short-sighted. Paul meant much more than simply Jews when he used the term "circumcision". A careful reading of the entirety of his writings will show that he used the term to encompass all effort-based soteriological systems, not just the Jews. Most of what he wrote concerning "the circumcision" applies equally well to all other systems which require works to be saved. Sadly, there is just as much of a works-based soteriological emphasis within the Church as there ever was within the rabbinical system. And it is just as contrary to the Gospel as the Judaizers of Paul's day.

That is one of the major problems with organized religious groups. They preach grace, practice and demand at least partial law. It nearly killed me. I no longer attend their confusion. I dare you to seriously listen and try to apply what they say and seriously study the Bible. You will have problems.

bugkiller

 

[Frogster]

I didn't quote a verse. I mentioned reading ALL of Paul's writings which speak on the subject of "circumcision". If you're only interested in specific verses to support what you're saying, so be it. I wasn't speaking on any specific.

I meant the verse i posted, that you quoted.


Acts 15:2 And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.

 

[BobRyan]

That's a bit short-sighted. Paul meant much more than simply Jews when he used the term "circumcision". A careful reading of the entirety of his writings will show that he used the term to encompass all effort-based soteriological systems, not just the Jews. Most of what he wrote concerning "the circumcision" applies equally well to all other systems which require works to be saved. Sadly, there is just as much of a works-based soteriological emphasis within the Church as there ever was within the rabbinical system. And it is just as contrary to the Gospel as the Judaizers of Paul's day.

Excellent point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 21[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 24:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]Acts 26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”[/FONT]

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]. [/FONT]

Anyone reading Acts 21-26 can see the facts!

Be blessed bro!

Now and then I do agree with something you are posting - and that is certainly a statement I do agree with.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Frogster]

Now and then I do agree with something you are posting - and that is certainly a statement I do agree with.

in Christ,

Bob

I am glad you agree with me, that the simple facts are as follows.

Paul for the most part, knew he was there because he preached the resurrection, that was why they hated him, so they trumped up a false charge about bringing a Greek into the temple, to which Paul defended himself against that charge, and was proved right.

Did Paul say in 1 Cor 9, he became as Jew for the gospel, to those under law? Yes, so likewise because they said Paul was preaching "sin to get grace", as per Rom 3:8, and the questions in Rom 6:1, and 6:15 which show that Paul knew they thought that about him, Paul became as a Jew took the vow to shut up his accusers, and also helped James, as James had helped Paul in Acts 15.


There you have it, that's all that was really going on in upper Acts, Paul was not there promoting law, law was not the hope of the 12 tribes in Acts 26, the resurrection was. That is why he talked about it before his judges.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by Frogster

Anyone reading Acts 21-26 can see the facts!

Be blessed bro!
​

Now and then I do agree with something you are posting - and that is certainly a statement I do agree with.

I am glad you agree with me,

I agree that Acts 21-26 make the points clear to all regarding Paul's practices when it comes to the Law of God and how he defended and proclaimed those practices at each of his trials.

I find the actual Bible - in Acts 21-28 helpful in showing what Acts 21-28 says -- and this is what you were responding to ...


[FONT=&quot]Acts 21[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 24:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]Acts 26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”[/FONT]

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

Did Paul say in 1 Cor 9, he became as Jew for the gospel, .

1 Cor 9 does not say "I am not really a Jew" or "I am not actually a Pharisee".

In fact Paul when held under oath - and placed on trial swears before both gentiles and Jews - the following statement.

To Gentiles Paul said:
Acts 21:39 "But Paul said, "I am a Jew of Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no insignificant city; and I beg you, allow me to speak to the people."

Paul said to gentiles and Jews in Acts 22:3
"I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated under Gamaliel, strictly according to the law of our fathers, being zealous for God just as you all are today.

Paul said to both gentiles and Jews in Acts 23:6

But perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, Paul began crying out in the Council, "Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!"

Paul did not become a Jew when he converted to Christianity - he was already a Jew and kept proclaiming that point for years after his conversion.

 

[Frogster]

Now and then I do agree with something you are posting - and that is certainly a statement I do agree with.



I agree that Acts 21-26 make the points clear to all regarding Paul's practices when it comes to the Law of God and how he defended and proclaimed those practices at each of his trials.

I find the actual Bible - in Acts 21-28 helpful in showing what Acts 21-28 says -- and this is what you were responding to ...


[FONT=&quot]Acts 21[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 24:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]Acts 26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”[/FONT]

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening[/FONT]

you are doing it again you can highlight what you want, proof texting, but I proved the context, and why he said and did, and what he was about

 

[BobRyan]

Turns out - what is said IN Acts 21-28 is found IN Acts 21-28... so then we expect to see texts from Acts 21-28 quoted when that is actually the focus of the post.


The point remains.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Frogster]

1 Cor 9 does not say "I am not really a Jew" or "I am not actually a Pharisee".

In fact Paul when held under oath - and placed on trial swears before both gentiles and Jews - the following statement.

To Gentiles Paul said:
Acts 21:39 "But Paul said, "I am a Jew of Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no insignificant city; and I beg you, allow me to speak to the people."

Paul said to gentiles and Jews in Acts 22:3
"I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated under Gamaliel, strictly according to the law of our fathers, being zealous for God just as you all are today.

Paul said to both gentiles and Jews in Acts 23:6

But perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, Paul began crying out in the Council, "Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!"

Paul did not become a Jew when he converted to Christianity - he was already a Jew and kept proclaiming that point for years after his conversion.

Of course Paul was always a ew, he could not change that, but he put off Judaism, as per 1 cor 9.And at the temple hr became as a Jew for the reasons I showed you.

He was not a pharisee any more. Why did he argue with them in Acts 15, when they came reaching law if Paul were a pharisee? Why did he call it all poop in Phil 3?

Bro, he was of the resurrection, as i stressed, and that was what they argued about in Acts 23, right out of the chapter you are quoting from, trying to make like Paul was a practicing pharisee!, So Paul was of that same belief, fine. Was Jesus a Pharisee? No! But he was of the same belief as them, about the resurrection, like how Paul was.


There ya go!

if you would see the resurrection as issue, and stop looking for law you would understand the context better.

 

[MoreCoffee]

you are doing it again you can highlight what you want, proof texting, but I proved the context, and why he said and did, and what he was about

What is a bit disturbing is that Acts 21:24 taken by itself doesn't tell the story properly. Verse 25* really does help. Saint Paul didn't "keep the customs" like refusing to eat with gentiles. Galatians chapter two tells us what saint Paul thought about that kind of religious hypocrisy. Acts 21:25 tells us that the folk talking to saint Paul didn't expect Gentiles to keep the customs or the law. There's no Sabbath keeping imposed on any gentile in this passage and no demand for gentiles to keep the law.

Saint Paul was no Messianic Jew no matter how much spin is put on Acts 21:24.

* Acts 21:25 But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity.

 

[Frogster]

What is a bit disturbing is that Acts 21:24 taken by itself doesn't tell the story properly. Verse 25 really does help. Saint Paul didn't "keep the customs" like refusing to eat with gentiles. Galatians chapter two tells us what saint Paul thought about that kind of religious hypocrisy. Acts 21:25 tells us that the folk talking to saint Paul didn't expect Gentiles to keep the customs or the law. There's no Sabbath keeping imposed on any gentile in this passage and no demand for gentiles to keep the law.

Saint Paul was no Messianic Jew no matter how much spin is put on Acts 21:24.

Thank you, thank you! Agreed!

 

[BobRyan]

What is a bit disturbing is that Acts 21:24 taken by itself doesn't tell the story properly.

What is encouraging is that the span from Acts 21-28 gives a great view of how Paul declared his own practice "under oath" and before both Jews and gentiles.

[FONT=&quot]Acts 21[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 24:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]Acts 26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”[/FONT]

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening[/FONT]

Clearly Paul was a Messianic Jew.

One who repeatedly declared himself to be a Jew - and who accepted Jesus of Nazareth as the true Messiah.

This is irrefutable.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The more expanded version of that post goes something like this --

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

(Many here would argue - "yeah... that is EXACTLY what Paul was doing!" - Paul goes out of his way to disprove it.



22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.




================================

Acts 24

10 Then Paul, after the governor had nodded to him to speak, answered: “Inasmuch as I know that you have been for many years a judge of this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself, 11 because you may ascertain that it is no more than twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem to worship. 12 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with anyone nor inciting the crowd, either in the synagogues or in the city. 13 Nor can they prove the things of which they now accuse me. 14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets. 15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust. 16 This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men.
17 “Now after many years I came to bring alms and offerings to my nation, 18in the midst of which some Jews from Asia found me purified in the temple, neither with a mob nor with tumult. 19 They ought to have been here before you to object if they had anything against me. 20 Or else let those who are here themselves say if they found any wrongdoing in me while I stood before the council, 21unless it is for this one statement which I cried out, standing among them, ‘Concerning the resurrection of the dead I am being judged by you this day.’”



Acts 25
7 When he had come, the Jews who had come down from Jerusalem stood about and laid many serious complaints against Paul, which they could not prove, 8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”


Acts 26
according to the strictest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee. 6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers. 7To this promise our twelve tribes, earnestly serving God night and day, hope to attain. For this hope’s sake, King Agrippa, I am accused by the Jews. 8 Why should it be thought incredible by you that God raises the dead? ...
Paul Recounts His Conversion

12 “While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, 13 at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. 14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking ... 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
Paul’s Post-Conversion Life

19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. 21 For these reasons the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me. 22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”


Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans, 18 who, when they had examined me, wanted to let me go, because there was no cause for putting me to death. 19 But when the Jews spoke against it, I was compelled to appeal to Caesar, not that I had anything of which to accuse my nation. 20 For this reason therefore I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening.

 

[BobRyan]

Having said that - Paul would condemn fluff and puffery sorts of made up traditions of the magesterium - just as did Christ, while still affirming the actual moral law of God - and valid statements made by religious leaders.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]The elders consisting of scrib[FONT=&quot]es and ph[FONT=&quot]arise[FONT=&quot]es [/FONT]are in fact the "magisterium" even Paul admits to this. And Jesus shows how they claim to "sit in the chair of Moses" as church magisterium[FONT=&quot].[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. (Matthew 23:1-3)[/FONT]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Matt 19
And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “
You shall not commit murder;
You shall not commit adultery;
You shall not steal;
You shall not bear false witness;
19 Honor your father and mother;
and
You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”[/FONT]

 

[Frogster]

What is encouraging is that the span from Acts 21-28 gives a great view of how Paul declared his own practice "under oath" and before both Jews and gentiles.

[FONT=&quot]Acts 21[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 24:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]Acts 26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”[/FONT]

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening[/FONT]

Clearly Paul was a Messianic Jew.

One who repeatedly declared himself to be a Jew - and who accepted Jesus of Nazareth as the true Messiah.

This is irrefutable.

in Christ,

Bob

How can you just keep repeating this, once you have seen the facts?

you can post it 100 times, but everyone knows better.


Paul called it flesh, and poop!




Phil 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

 

[Frogster]

Having said that - Paul would condemn fluff and puffery sorts of made up traditions of the magesterium - just as did Christ, while still affirming the actual moral law of God - and valid statements made by religious leaders.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]The elders consisting of scrib[FONT=&quot]es and ph[FONT=&quot]arise[FONT=&quot]es [/FONT]are in fact the "magisterium" even Paul admits to this. And Jesus shows how they claim to "sit in the chair of Moses" as church magisterium[FONT=&quot].[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. (Matthew 23:1-3)[/FONT]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Matt 19
And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “
You shall not commit murder;
You shall not commit adultery;
You shall not steal;
You shall not bear false witness;
19 Honor your father and mother;
and
You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”[/FONT]

Jesus was talking to Jews under law, and besides, show 1 post here where anyone here said to go out and steal or something like that. This post holds no weight.

 

[BobRyan]

When the claim that says Acts 21-28 is perfectly clear is followed by complaints about clear quotes from Acts 21-28 -- the logic used in such action is "illusive" to the reader.

So in all afforts to re-interpret re-explain Acts 21-28 by the tactic of avoiding Acts 21-28 -- I try to bring the posts back to a focus on the actual text being "explained" -

How can you just keep repeating this, once you have seen the facts?

The facts in Acts 21-28 are showing IN Acts 21-28 ... as it turns out

you can post it 100 times, but everyone knows better.

I find your logic 'illusive' just then.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[MoreCoffee]

The more expanded version of that post goes something like this --
Acts 21 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;
21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.
22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.
25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication."

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Why do your posts always fail to quote Acts 21:25? I added the missing verse (in red text). Let people see the passage properly. It isn't advocacy for Messianic Judaism and it isn't pro LAW.