Paul Cain sin announced by Joyner, Bickle, and Deere

[SpiritPsalmist]

It could also be 'cause there might have been more "christian's" talking against them and tearing them down instead of lifting them up in prayer. All of us have the capacity to fall.

I've known of preacher's from many differing religions who fell, not just the tongue talking one's.

 

[Trish1947]

I agree that these men have done alot of damage to the Body of Christ. Not the mature ones, but the new ones. They are looking where they shouldn't be looking for perfection. And it causes dis-alusion. But it scares me because these men were used of God in a mighty way. I think of David... David had a man killed, so he could have his wife.. We need to realize that humanity even though they have Christ and know God can fall into sin..I realize that these men get put on a pedestal, and all eyes are on them, and not on Christ, as with these ministers, we have no idea how we would do if we we're tempted everyday with the popularity, glitz, and pressure to perform every day in tv ministry. I dont want to know. If the house of God needs to be purged and cleaned up, then so be it. But one thing I do know, is that when we hear of brothers like this fall, it should humble us to the max, knock us off our high horses, because we have no idea what it's like the temptations and pressures that befall tv evangelists. But I'm convienced that more good has been done to present Christ to the masses, than harm. When this happens it should draw those that we're enamored with the minister, back to the one that bought them.

 

[JimB]

It could also be 'cause there might have been more "christian's" talking against them and tearing them down instead of lifting them up in prayer. All of us have the capacity to fall.

I've known of preacher's from many differing religions who fell, not just the tongue talking one's.

Q, as always, I respect your views. But …

I do believe many, many people pray for these men. I pray for them, just like you do.

The cause of their failings, IMO, is the bogus 'ministry' they conduct and the undeserved acclaim they are given by their followers. If they lift themselves up to positions of national prominence, they are subject – and should be subject – to public scrutiny. They prefer to do their thing with impunity, resist accountability, and too often cry “foul” when their sins are uncovered. A great service would be done to them and to the Church if Christians would just stop watching their infomercials. I have given up hope that this will ever happen and am resigned to the fact that we will see scandal after scandal after scandal until Jesus returns.

The greatest culprits are, IMO, P/Cs. We (and I hesitate to say “we”) are the ones who keep them on their wobbly pedestals and run to their defense when they are exposed. We blame their critics for their failures, shoot the messengers, and keep them propped up until the weight of truth brings them down. Until the day of her death, my dear Mom refused to believe anything bad about her beloved Jim Bakker, even the things he confessed to.

Is it any wonder that P/Cs are largely ignored by the mainline Christian community? We and our message lose more and more credibility every time one of our celebrities falls.

These dishonest and dishonoring ‘ministers’ are blind guides of the blind and ‘we’, their devotees, are ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

IMO

\o/

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Q, as always, I respect your views. But …

I do believe many, many people pray for these men. I pray for them, just like you do.

I'm not defending them Jim but I believe those who critisize are held accountable too. In loose translation the Word say's that wagging tongues start fire's.

The cause of their failings, IMO, is the bogus 'ministry' they conduct and the undeserved acclaim they are given by their followers. If they lift themselves up to positions of national prominence, they are subject – and should be subject – to public scrutiny. They prefer to do their thing with impunity, resist accountability, and too often cry “foul” when their sins are uncovered. A great service would be done to them and to the Church if Christians would just stop watching their infomercials. I have given up hope that this will ever happen and am resigned to the fact that we will see scandal after scandal after scandal until Jesus returns.

Bogus I suppose anyone can sit back and call another man who's more in the limelight than they are that.

Undeserved Scripture say's, give honor to whom honor is due. If your congregation is benefited by you is it not to their and your credit when they give you honor. True, no one but God should be lifted up on a pedestal, but by my saying that I enjoyed the ministry of Paul Cain and learned from him does not mean that I have put him up on a pedestal. I think some people read way toooooo much into it.

Don't most people cry "foul" when they are approached. As a moderator I hear it all the time in these forums. I've been cussed out by people calling me all sort's of ugly name's all because I pointed out a problem with something they posted. . .and the most frequent thing I've heard is "I'm a minister of the gospel and I've don't have problem's anywhere else!!!!!"

The greatest culprits are, IMO, P/Cs. We (and I hesitate to say “we”) are the ones who keep them on their wobbly pedestals and run to their defense when they are exposed. We blame their critics for their failures, shoot the messengers, and keep them propped up until the weight of truth brings them down. Until the day of her death, my dear Mom refused to believe anything bad about her beloved Jim Bakker, even the things he confessed to.

Again, I'm not defending him but if he were to repent and submit to the correction should we still hold it over his head? Jim Bakker has repented, he paid a higher price than most rapist's in this country. He's gone on with his life and he's helping benefit people again. . .yet whenever his name is mentioned it's still like a "scarlet letter" across his chest. What about our list of sin's? The Lord's prayer say's, "forgive us AS we forgive those who tresspass against us".

Is it any wonder that P/Cs are largely ignored by the mainline Christian community? We and our message lose more and more credibility every time one of our celebrities falls.

I agree

These dishonest and dishonoring ‘ministers’ are blind guides of the blind and ‘we’, their devotees, are ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

IMO

\o/

Not all of us Jim. . .not all of us.

 

[JimB]

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I'm not defending them Jim but I believe those who critisize are held accountable too. In loose translation the Word say's that wagging tongues start fire's.



Bogus I suppose anyone can sit back and call another man who's more in the limelight than they are that.

Undeserved Scripture say's, give honor to whom honor is due. If your congregation is benefited by you is it not to their and your credit when they give you honor. True, no one but God should be lifted up on a pedestal, but by my saying that I enjoyed the ministry of Paul Cain and learned from him does not mean that I have put him up on a pedestal. I think some people read way toooooo much into it.

Don't most people cry "foul" when they are approached. As a moderator I hear it all the time in these forums. I've been cussed out by people calling me all sort's of ugly name's all because I pointed out a problem with something they posted. . .and the most frequent thing I've heard is "I'm a minister of the gospel and I've don't have problem's anywhere else!!!!!"



Again, I'm not defending him but if he were to repent and submit to the correction should we still hold it over his head? Jim Bakker has repented, he paid a higher price than most rapist's in this country. He's gone on with his life and he's helping benefit people again. . .yet whenever his name is mentioned it's still like a "scarlet letter" across his chest. What about our list of sin's? The Lord's prayer say's, "forgive us AS we forgive those who tresspass against us".



I agree


Not all of us Jim. . .not all of us.

Thanks again for a thoughtful response, Q.

I know I am accused of yelling fire a lot. Hey, it’s a nasty job but somebody has to do it – especially if there really is a fire. And there seems to be many recurring conflagrations these days.

Re: the subject and speaking as a pastor: if I lack honor, or abuse my privileges as a pastor, or mislead people, or abuse them, or do anything beyond what God has called me to do as the leader of one of His flocks, I am to be held accountable. I am accountable to God and, I believe, to the people I serve.

Sure, I face criticism (what pastor doesn’t), and some/most of it undeserved. But where I am to blame I hope I have the integrity to admit my failures and correct them. If I do not and am exposed I should be removed. Period. I am not special. I am a servant. In fact, since the Church is God’s business, He can fire me at anytime I fail in my calling and He can do it in any way He chooses. I expect it. And so, I try to live my life as worthy of my position as I can. It is the very least I can do.

Now, if that is true about one little pastor of one little congregation in one little East Texas town, how much more should it be true of those who stand in a larger spotlight on a national stage. To whom much is given, much is required. That is why I am not ambitious for a prominent ministry. If I seek and attain the privilege of speaking to a national audience, I cannot complain if I have to face the larger responsibility that goes along with it.

Please do not think I am being unduly critical of P/Cs, even though I know I sound like it sometimes. I often feel like the misfit I probably am. Although the P/C tag is sometimes a tough label to wear, I recognize that I am one. What P/C critics say (sometimes justifiably) about us hurts and I sometimes have to bear the stigma even when I may not be in agreement with the thing or minister being criticized or exposed. If I want the privilege of being P/C, I also have the responsibility of what accompanies it, good and bad.

Are some (not all) of these prominent ministries bogus? Of course they are. These too often recurring scandals should tell us that. Is the unwarranted acclaim these idols-with-clay-feet given undeserved? Certainly. Their shameful lives and actions prove it all too frequently.

As for Jim Bakker. Yes, he has repented. I have talked with him. I believe he is sincere and, personally, I like him. Unfortunately, he will bear the reproach of his sins for the rest of his life. It’s not fair, but it is the way life is. Some will never forget or forgive. Why should we be surprised when we make divorced and remarried Christians bear the stigma of their sin for life, depriving them from service to God, making them second-class church members, and constantly reminding them they are not really forgiven – so, why should we be surprised when repentant prominent ministers are forced to do the same?

It’s sad, but it is the way life is here among God’s fallible creatures.

\o/

 

[StevenL]

One of the problems is: God never called any man to be THE leader over one of His flocks. That is an unscriptural and very dangerous organizational structure. However, the leadership refuses to acknowledge the scriptural plan, i.e. several older, Spirit-controlled and Spirit-chosen people who are leaders of each assembly, because of the privileges, social position, pay, etc. As long as the present unscriptural organization continues, the evil will continue in the assemblies.

 

[bigsierra]

Hmmm, I didn't realize so many folks knew who he was. I used to see him when he came to Metro Vineyard. I pray he repents.

 

[JimB]

One of the problems is: God never called any man to be THE leader over one of His flocks. That is an unscriptural and very dangerous organizational structure. However, the leadership refuses to acknowledge the scriptural plan, i.e. several older, Spirit-controlled and Spirit-chosen people who are leaders of each assembly, because of the privileges, social position, pay, etc. As long as the present unscriptural organization continues, the evil will continue in the assemblies.

I do not agree with this but it would make an interesting thread on Church Government. Why not start one.
Jim

 

[Svt4Him]

(Interestingly, all of these men claimed to be filled with the Spirit and spoke in tongues. Do you find that troubling?)

Why would this be troubling? Should we throw it out? How about then we look at all the scandals in the whole Christian organization, then throw out Christianity? See, I see what the inference is, and it is terribly inaccurate, what I find troubling is how quick people jump on the man without the humility to know that 'but for the grace of God there go I". We can talk how these men let us down, but it is the same God working in them, and God will complete the work. I would fear someone not repenting from this sin, and it should be with tears in my eyes that I talk about them. Thank God it came out now, so the ministry of reconciliation can happen.

And Jim, I'm glad you pray specifically for him, I never have. And I wonder what the ratio is between the life that comes out of people's mouths and the death. I don't whitewash sin, but I have been in a place that I thought I would never be in, and once I got through it, I strived to never think of myself more 'spiritual' than anyone, even someone caught in sin.

Are some (not all) of these prominent ministries bogus? Of course they are.

And then there's Paul who says the word is what has the power, so if the word is being preached, let them go on. Weird eh?

 

[JimB]

Why would this be troubling? Should we throw it out? How about then we look at all the scandals in the whole Christian organization, then throw out Christianity? See, I see what the inference is, and it is terribly inaccurate, what I find troubling is how quick people jump on the man without the humility to know that 'but for the grace of God there go I". We can talk how these men let us down, but it is the same God working in them, and God will complete the work. I would fear someone not repenting from this sin, and it should be with tears in my eyes that I talk about them. Thank God it came out now, so the ministry of reconciliation can happen.

And Jim, I'm glad you pray specifically for him, I never have. And I wonder what the ratio is between the life that comes out of people's mouths and the death. I don't whitewash sin, but I have been in a place that I thought I would never be in, and once I got through it, I strived to never think of myself more 'spiritual' than anyone, even someone caught in sin.

And then there's Paul who says the word is what has the power, so if the word is being preached, let them go on. Weird eh?

Thanks for your gracious response, S4H.

Let me tell you why it troubles me. It troubles me because the P/Cs one major contribution to the Body of Christ is our belief in the Spirit-filled life. Ironically, almost all the major scandals in the modern church have come from carnal men under the banner of being “Spirit-filled”. It destroys the credibility of our message (and its truth) and makes us all look like fools in the very eyes of those we are trying to influence.

When we decided to plant a Vineyard church in our community, one person I barely know told me he was “on to my scam.” He knew what my game was. He said, “You’re just starting this church to get at people’s money, aren’t you? You know, like these TV preachers.”

I thought he was joking, so I laughed. But he didn’t laugh. He was serious.

My credibility is damaged with this unbelieving man through no fault of my own because of the stuff that these prominent telepreachers perpetrate in the name of the Lord and because when they fail they fail so gloriously. I'm guilty by association.

These atomic failures hinder the work of God everywhere and IMO alienates nonbelievers that much further from the Lord in whose name these few but prominent 'ministers' practice their scams. Maybe alienating them forever.

That should trouble every Christian.

That’s why I think we should obey the Apostle’s advice when he said “Mark those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them.” (Rom. 16.17)

I choose to avoid them by just not watching their infomercials.

\o/

 

[StevenL]

I do not agree with this but it would make an interesting thread on Church Government. Why not start one.
Jim

I don't know of any pastor of any church who agrees with it and don't expect any to, but the fact remains that the One Pastor church is totally unscriptural and very dangerous. It helps lead to the Great Man of God syndrome that we're discussing here. "Church" leadership has its own particular kind of temptation to pride and other sins, you know it and I know it. Big Church Man or little Church Man (or Woman), the tempation is the same. And it can be indulged while the Man of God actually looks to "his flock" to be very humble, spiritual, and respectable. It has to be kept in check by Scriptural organization. The God-ordained plural eldership is easily Scripturally determinable and it has a bearing on this thread. If carried out by the Spirit correctly, it provides a check to the human ego and to demonic seduction. Unfortunately, the people of God have been brainwashed by false organizations so long that they can't see or don't even care what is written anymore. The bitter is sweet and the darkness is light.

 

[JimB]

I don't know of any pastor of any church who agrees with it and don't expect any to, but the fact remains that the One Pastor church is totally unscriptural and very dangerous. It helps lead to the Great Man of God syndrome that we're discussing here. "Church" leadership has its own particular kind of temptation to pride and other sins, you know it and I know it. Big Church Man or little Church Man (or Woman), the tempation is the same. And it can be indulged while the Man of God actually looks to "his flock" to be very humble, spiritual, and respectable. It has to be kept in check by Scriptural organization. The God-ordained plural eldership is easily Scripturally determinable and it has a bearing on this thread. If carried out by the Spirit correctly, it provides a check to the human ego and to demonic seduction. Unfortunately, the people of God have been brainwashed by false organizations so long that they can't see or don't even care what is written anymore. The bitter is sweet and the darkness is light.

This is nothing new. I think it's a good theory that looks good on paper but just doesn't work very effectively. This plural eldership idea sprang up in P/C circles in the 70s and 80s, about the same time as the discipling movement, and did not get very far because the pride you mentioned in your post manifested itself in another way. Two or more men with independent ideas inevitably clashed and, in most instances where the plural eldership was tried, churches split between the Appollos’, Pauls, and Cephas’. Church splits occurred and people were caught in the crossfire, many of them wounded. Headstrong men cannot lead together unless they lead from servitude. In that case, one man can do it as successfully as two or three.

\o/

 

[JVD]

I don't know of any pastor of any church who agrees with it and don't expect any to, but the fact remains that the One Pastor church is totally unscriptural and very dangerous. It helps lead to the Great Man of God syndrome that we're discussing here. "Church" leadership has its own particular kind of temptation to pride and other sins, you know it and I know it. Big Church Man or little Church Man (or Woman), the tempation is the same. And it can be indulged while the Man of God actually looks to "his flock" to be very humble, spiritual, and respectable. It has to be kept in check by Scriptural organization. The God-ordained plural eldership is easily Scripturally determinable and it has a bearing on this thread. If carried out by the Spirit correctly, it provides a check to the human ego and to demonic seduction. Unfortunately, the people of God have been brainwashed by false organizations so long that they can't see or don't even care what is written anymore. The bitter is sweet and the darkness is light.

I agree with this completely. I think it is very important to have a group of believers to which every leader or pastor is accountable. These elders need to be accountable to someone else besides the pastor for their position. This leads to a more open and honest leadership. When the pastor gets out of line, it is important for these elders to correct him. When he is down they need to encourage him and help him.

And this does belong on this thread, it becomes a good lesson for all of us.

 

[Suffolk Sean]

This is nothing new. I think it's a good theory that looks good on paper but just doesn't work very effectively. This plural eldership idea sprang up in P/C circles in the 70s and 80s, about the same time as the discipling movement, and did not get very far because the pride you mentioned in your post manifested itself in another way. Two or more men with independent ideas inevitably clashed and, in most instances where the plural eldership was tried, churches split between the Appollos’, Pauls, and Cephas’. Church splits occurred and people were caught in the crossfire, many of them wounded. Headstrong men cannot lead together unless they lead from servitude. In that case, one man can do it as successfully as two or three.

\o/

Jim I love this, we are so enamoured of people. Recall the cry to submit to your leaders awhile back (aka shepparding, etc)? Why do ministers feel they are rulers and not servants?

 

[StevenL]

Plural eldership springs from the writers of the New Testament. I don't follow the doctrines of PC. The fact that headstrong men can't carry out the Scriptures does not invalidate the Scriptures. It merely shows the apostacy of the leadership.

 

[StevenL]

Beside this, the apostle said to "let the prophets speak, two or three and let the rest judge what is said." Not one "preacher". This fulfills the Scriptural direction for "two or three witnesses." One guy gets a "word from the Lord" and us dumb sheep are just supposed to sit back and accept it? Not on your life.

 

[Asaph]

Why do ministers feel they are rulers and not servants?

Why? Because the sin nature of history is the same sin nature of today. This is Jesus in response to the very same problem from the mother of James and John, (yeah right. Like James and John hadn't already had this conversation with their mom about being top guns. ):

Matt 20:24-28
24 And when the ten heard it, they were greatly displeased with the two brothers. 25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. 26 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. 27 And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave-- 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
NKJV

I can testify that the problem sometimes does NOT originate with the person in the visible position of leadership. I have had sincere loving brothers and sisters try to encourage me with accolades of this or that, and I guarantee that they meant no harm in doing it. But they still have been variously offended or perplexed by my response that "if it ministered to you, it wasn't me, it was the Lord".

It's a messed up universe we live in.

Asaph

 

[Svt4Him]

Let me tell you why it troubles me. It troubles me because the P/Cs one major contribution to the Body of Christ is our belief in the Spirit-filled life. Ironically, almost all the major scandals in the modern church have come from carnal men under the banner of being “Spirit-filled”. It destroys the credibility of our message (and its truth) and makes us all look like fools in the very eyes of those we are trying to influence.

This is not true. I can site recent abuse trials in some denominations, homosexual cases in other denominations, mismanagement of funds, charity fraud, etc. I can link to human rights cases involving others, lawsuits from still other denominations. But if you want to focus on one group, you will only see it in one group.

 

[Asaph]

This is not true. I can site recent abuse trials in some denominations, homosexual cases in other denominations, mismanagement of funds, charity fraud, etc. I can link to human rights cases involving others, lawsuits from still other denominations. But if you want to focus on one group, you will only see it in one group.

Amen

 

[BarbB]

Why is the situation not that good men started ministries, maybe got carried away, were tempted and succumbed, being humans and all. Maybe some ministries were started as a scam, but I think that those don't get too far. If this fellow did repent and leave the alcohol (sounds like it was to blame) etc. then why should he not be forgiven.

I was not born-again yet when Jim Bakker and Swaggart fell and believe me, I revelled in their fall. But Jim Bakker has begun a new ministry and I for one believe that he's doing what he was meant to do. As a Christian, I don't worry too much about what others say against him. I just consider the source!

I'm not stating this well, but do we not continue to sin and can we not be forgiven? My sins might be different now than before, but sins they still are. Why is it so strange that someone who speaks in tongues should sin?

Is it not up to us to forgive these men for the black eye that the church has suffered?