Paul Cain sin announced by Joyner, Bickle, and Deere

[JimB]

Concerning discipline within the church 9can we ignore any of these scriptures?):

Romans 16 17I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.

1 Corinthians 4 19But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have. 20For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. 21What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a whip, or in love and with a gentle spirit?

1 Corinthians 51It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. 6Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast--as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. [This discipline was designed to restore, not punish, the transgressor as the outcome reveals 2 Cor 2.6-11 – excusing his sin would have destroyed him; confronting him saved him.]

1 Corinthians 511But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

2 Corinthians 132I already gave you a warning when I was with you the second time. I now repeat it while absent: On my return I will not spare those who sinned earlier or any of the others . . . 10This is why I write these things when I am absent, that when I come I may not have to be harsh in my use of authority--the authority the Lord gave me for building you up, not for tearing you down.

2 Thessalonians 3 6In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us. . . . 14If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed. 15Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

1 Timothy 5 20Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

2 Timothy 4 2correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction.

Titus 1 13This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith.

Titus 3 10Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. 11You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

2 John 1 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. 11Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

\o/

 

[JimB]

That is a great point. Now I should add that someone in sin should be removed, I don't think we have disagreement there. My issue is with the times all 'the others' who have fallen are brought up...again and again and again and again. God's forgiven them, God restores them, then why do we who are so loving constantly throw the records of their wrong around? That is my reference to David. But David repented and turned to God. If anyone found in sin does that, then it is not our responsibiliby to keep reminding God of it, as He's already forgot. This is different if Mr. Cain hasn't repented.

I do not see us as “throwing around” their "mistakes" (sins) after they repent. But even the sins of the patriarchs of scripture are there for all to read and for a very good purpose: “Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. . . .These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come” (1 Cor 10.6, 11).

When prominent Christian leaders fail today they should serve as examples to us, too, and that is why their failures are discussed – not to condemn them when they have repented but to warn us that it could happen to us too.

Excusing them and ignoring their example (albeit poor example) is IMO a mistake.

\o/

 

[Blade]

Sorry if I step on your toes...

The best part about this thread was the 3-4 people that talked about praying for the man.

For the one. You made your choice.

Now as far as I can see this was taken care of already by people who new the man. And if you think for one sec that God wants us to keep talking about sin then I wonder how much we really know God. The only difference with anyone how sins is their sin got exposed and ours did not.

Jim I understand what you are trying to say. But we do not know the man. I believe we should...

"We do not believe that Paul has committed anything that places him beyond the grace of God. We are hopeful that there are those who are more spiritual and wiser than we are who can help Paul through a process of restoration in which we failed. We remain desirous of helping in this in any way that we can. If restored, we believe that Paul can once again have an extraordinary ministry and be a significant blessing to the body of Christ"

It looks like these people here did what the words says and now we should be praying for him. So many people here already know what should happen to anyone like this. They know without any time spent in prayer about the matter. They know without knowing the person. Did you know when Peter was in prison the church prayed without ceasing. Yet this man has falling into something worse (as far as I can tell) and how many even prayed at all yet.

Don't get me wrong I am not saying lets over look peoples sin. It's just how in the world are we going to talk about someone when we know nothing about them. Like one very very well know preacher that has been talked about here things were said yet know one has every know or talked to this person. Not to pat myself on the back but I have and so much of the things said here about this person (said and did) was never said by this preacher. Some of you know that prayer is so much stronger and powerful and this is what we should be doing.

Yes we should learn but just what is it you are teaching??

 

[Questioning Christian]

My title is "Questioning Christian".

I feel that this topic raises some very important questions.

[1] When will the Charismatics be able to use discernment toward a person's character and stop focusing on that person's gifts ? Peter saw right through Ananias and Sapphira toward their lying greed. He did not focus on their being big money givers. He did not give them a gold brick with their name on it for being at the "Super-Duper Anointed Faith Prayer Partners" level, like our TV evangelists do today, with their gold, silver, and bronze levels of giving.

[2] When will the focus in the church come off the offender, and all his little hurts and pains, and get on the victim, which is [directly] Cain's audience and is [indirectly] the body of Christ? Too often, we keep talking about the guy or lady who did us wrong, and all their sins and all their updates, and we lose focus off of the wounded who need care and tenderness.

Having been through the two major church scandals [one resulting in the church split and many lost sheep], I know from personal experience how hard it is to clean up after someone else's mess, all the hours of counseling you give to people, trying to help keep people in church when they hate the church, etc etc. We need to hold out the hand to those who need help.

[3] Where is the balance between confronting and condemning? A lot of people struggle with finding this balance, due to the righteous indignation on the one hand, and the desire to love and restore on the other?

[4] What sins constitute a total and permanent removal from ministry positions? Are there offenses so great so as to remove one from public ministry altogether?

[5] Should we consider it a warning sign if a minister such as Paul Cain or Roberts Liardon do not want to get married, that the person may be gay?

I am sure there are other questions. I just want to raise a few.

 

[Svt4Him]

When will the Charismatics be able to use discernment toward a person's character

Hopefully never. It's discernment of spirits, not character.

 

[Questioning Christian]

I was not referring to a gift of discernment of spirits. I am talking about discerning a person's character. The Lord truly does reveal people's character when they are not walking right.

My point was that people are so focused on the gifts that they don't even question what is behind the curtain.


People need to wake up. Maybe this scandal will help do it.

 

[Blade]

I was not referring to a gift of discernment of spirits. I am talking about discerning a person's character. The Lord truly does reveal people's character when they are not walking right.

My point was that people are so focused on the gifts that they don't even question what is behind the curtain.


People need to wake up. Maybe this scandal will help do it.

Sometimes the higher the Call the farther you fall. I always believe in helping the ones who fall for this is a battle. But I do know we must look at and help those who get lead in the wrong direction by some of these. I agree you would think we should know.

 

[JimB]

Hopefully never. It's discernment of spirits, not character.

Okay, then, When will Christians (mostly, it appears, P/C types) learn to exercise good old-fashioned vanilla-flavored discernment (common sense, intelligence, judgment, discretion, wisdom) and quit excusing and enabling the flagrant sins that too frequently occur with their "leaders"? It is especially distasteful to me when it is called “mercy” especially when the mercy is exhibited toward fraudulent behavior and not toward the victimized widows whose houses they devour. While we are so careful to protect the unscrupulous minister’s self-soiled reputation we completely ignore the devoured widow’s houses. Whose side do I think Christ would have taken? The answer is a no-brainer, if you ask me.

Where is judgment supposed to begin among believers? In the secular media? Hardly. IMO, these scandals reoccur in the mainstream media because they are not dealt with in the church. Judgment, according to the Apostle Peter, must begin in the house of God (1 Peter 4.17).

To me, this pious-sounding “Oh, my, we need to show mercy for the erring minister and pray for his restitution not talk about it” sounds to me more like, “Uh oh, If we ignore the problem and pretend it didn’t happen, maybe it will go away.” Problem is, the crisis is never solved and it comes back again ... and again ... and again ... and again ... and again ... and again …etc...
The “Leave it alone and let God handle it” approach to problems in the Body of Christ, while sounding very humble and spiritual, sounds to me more like an “It’s-not-my-job” cop-out. The scriptures I carefully listed for you in the Post #61 above says it is OUR job to clean up our own messes and to deal with our problems. We cannot expect Daddy to clean up every mess we make when He has given us clear instructions to tidy up our room. As we mature, I would think, we realize that responsibility comes along with privilege.
IMO, We have created the gullible climate these con artists thrive in and it is up to us, if we ever expect things to change, to fix the problems we have made. We have been told in the Word to do so.

\o/

 

[Questioning Christian]

Well, what can you say after that... I think you said it all, Jim M