Patriarch Bartholomew - slander?

[buzuxi02]

Army,

Thats the thing, to me the pro-choice arguments are strange. I guess there also universal arguments. For instance that women need a safe place to get abortions is insane to me. Your getting a procedure thats taboo and you want facilities that are like resorts? Perhaps we can put Picassos and Rembrandts on the walls and a mint on every pillow as well. Sorry that i cant get sympathetic on that one.

The whole right to do with the body thing could of made sense if there was precedence for it. But last i checked it was illegal to use anything from heroine to steroids. I think most countries even consider suicide illegal. So once again it comes down to an argument based on the elitism of white women, that there special above everyone else.

 

[Ariadne_GR]

A procedure that's taboo? In the eyes of the church, yes. Not in the world - the procedure is legal. Does the church pay for it? No. Then why do you think medical personnel would do a medical procedure in an unsafe environment. I suppose if you had it your way, these procedures would be happening with coat hangers again.

These women don't think they are above anyone else, that is a ridiculous argument. If a man gets a woman pregnant, he can walk away. She can't. She lives with the consequences, whatever they may be.

 

[Dorothea]

A procedure that's taboo? In the eyes of the church, yes. Not in the world - the procedure is legal. Does the church pay for it? No. Then why do you think medical personnel would do a medical procedure in an unsafe environment. I suppose if you had it your way, these procedures would be happening with coat hangers again.

These women don't think they are above anyone else, that is a ridiculous argument. If a man gets a woman pregnant, he can walk away. She can't. She lives with the consequences, whatever they may be.

Yes, women have gone through such horrors throughout history. Nobody wants women left out in alleys to bleed to death.

Again, this is why there are Christ-like centers such as crisis pregnancy centers that offer free medical care, such as free pregnancy tests, free ultrasounds, and in many cases, places for the woman to stay that is safe for her and her unborn child. They are also given supplies needed for them and their children. Some are offered free scholarships for college as well.

I have a friend who was raped and kept her baby girl. She says her daughter is the best gift she's ever gotten. She really grounds her and has been such a blessing in her life. Her daughter is now in first or second grade. God makes good out of things that were evil or terrible events in people's lives.

What I am not understanding is why you say it's wrong in the Church's eyes. We ARE the Church, which means, it's wrong in OUR eyes. Why do you keep distancing yourself from the Body of Christ?

 

[buzuxi02]

These women don't think they are above anyone else, that is a ridiculous argument. If a man gets a woman pregnant, he can walk away. She can't. She lives with the consequences, whatever they may be.

As i've said i cant really relate to the white mans value system, but i know most non-western women with perhaps the exception of China consider it taboo.

But the part of the man being able to walk away, isnt that one of the virtues promoted by western society? Isnt it the feminist argument that men should have no say with a womans body? That underage girls should not have to notify their parents for what they do to their body? That women should be equal, independant and not answer to a man?

So western society by its very design is individualistic and selfish. It also has gotten itself into a quagmire, the need for politicians to attract votes by dividing the ignorant masses into ever more niche groups whom they can cater to. So obvously women became the focus group for the politicians, hence western society with its need for voting blocs to fuel its crappy democracies invented vaginacare.
Isnt it amazing that the entire white world has domestic and foreign policy centered around vaginas?
When women won the right to vote is this what they had in mind? That it will be a vehicle to cater to their vaginas (without the need of a husband at that)? Who would of thought the only thing the suffrage movement wanted was vaginacare (aka abortion).

Am i the only one that finds this just a bit wierd? I live in the worlds strongest superpower and all federal elections centers around a womans vagina! Was this the biggest concern for the byzantine emperor Konstantine Paleologos when the walls of Constantinople were under seige by the Ottomons?

 

[Ariadne_GR]

Yes, women have gone through such horrors throughout history. Nobody wants women left out in alleys to bleed to death.

Again, this is why there are Christ-like centers such as crisis pregnancy centers that offer free medical care, such as free pregnancy tests, free ultrasounds, and in many cases, places for the woman to stay that is safe for her and her unborn child. They are also given supplies needed for them and their children. Some are offered free scholarships for college as well.

I have a friend who was raped and kept her baby girl. She says her daughter is the best gift she's ever gotten. She really grounds her and has been such a blessing in her life. Her daughter is now in first or second grade. God makes good out of things that were evil or terrible events in people's lives.

What I am not understanding is why you say it's wrong in the Church's eyes. We ARE the Church, which means, it's wrong in OUR eyes. Why do you keep distancing yourself from the Body of Christ?

I don't understand why people are acting as if abortion views are somehow the be all and end all of Christian belief. Do people believe in the Holy Trinity? Yes. Big tick. Will they have some views that differ to each and every one of the church's teachings? Possibly, abortion being just one issue in many.

As i've said i cant really relate to the white mans value system, but i know most non-western women with perhaps the exception of China consider it taboo.

But the part of the man being able to walk away, isnt that one of the virtues promoted by western society? Isnt it the feminist argument that men should have no say with a womans body? That underage girls should not have to notify their parents for what they do to their body? That women should be equal, independant and not answer to a man?

So western society by its very design is individualistic and selfish. It also has gotten itself into a quagmire, the need for politicians to attract votes by dividing the ignorant masses into ever more niche groups whom they can cater to. So obvously women became the focus group for the politicians, hence western society with its need for voting blocs to fuel its crappy democracies invented vaginacare.
Isnt it amazing that the entire white world has domestic and foreign policy centered around vaginas?
When women won the right to vote is this what they had in mind? That it will be a vehicle to cater to their vaginas (without the need of a husband at that)? Who would of thought the only thing the suffrage movement wanted was vaginacare (aka abortion).

Am i the only one that finds this just a bit wierd? I live in the worlds strongest superpower and all federal elections centers around a womans vagina! Was this the biggest concern for the byzantine emperor Konstantine Paleologos when the walls of Constantinople were under seige by the Ottomons?

Yes, women don't need husbands. Shocking isn't it. If I give anything to the feminist movement it is that, that they have succeeded in helping women see that they can be anything they want to be, with a man or without.

There are other important issues in an election - healthcare, education, the economy, war etc. If people are making abortion a bigger issue is because they base their vote around social issues, which is fine. But there are bigger fish to fry when it comes to world issues.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I don't understand why people are acting as if abortion views are somehow the be all and end all of Christian belief. Do people believe in the Holy Trinity? Yes. Big tick. Will they have some views that differ to each and every one of the church's teachings? Possibly, abortion being just one issue in many.

not for things that are established dogma. life beginning at conception being one of them, and abortion being murder by extension. this is one of those things that we are not allowed to fudge on as Orthodox. this does not mean that you cannot support a pro choice candidate or something like that, since no pro life candidate has gotten everything "right" by Orthodox standards, but being pro choice is against Orthodox teachings. the Church is very clear on that.

 

[Dorothea]

I don't understand why people are acting as if abortion views are somehow the be all and end all of Christian belief. Do people believe in the Holy Trinity? Yes. Big tick. Will they have some views that differ to each and every one of the church's teachings? Possibly, abortion being just one issue in many.

It's not the only issue, but is tied into life. Only God has the authority to take or give life, not us. Life is important for the unborn, incarcerated, elderly, handicapped, etc.

We are called to love God and our neighbor. Respecting the life of another human being is loving him/her.

 

[Ariadne_GR]

It's not the only issue, but is tied into life. Only God has the authority to take or give life, not us. Life is important for the unborn, incarcerated, elderly, handicapped, etc.

We are called to love God and our neighbor. Respecting the life of another human being is loving him/her.

So far, we've just been talking about the unborn, but thanks for embellishing. So basically if someone says that prior to a certain stage of development they do not see the unborn as a person it automatically means that they kick dogs for fun (my embellishment), and don't care for the incarcerated, elderly or handicapped. What a clear connection, otherwise I wouldn't be getting a lesson on loving my neighbour.

 

[Dorothea]

So far, we've just been talking about the unborn, but thanks for embellishing. So basically if someone says that prior to a certain stage of development they do not see the unborn as a person it automatically means that they kick dogs for fun (my embellishment), and don't care for the incarcerated, elderly or handicapped. What a clear connection, otherwise I wouldn't be getting a lesson on loving my neighbour.

Well, that's not what I was pointing out. I was showing that life is precious not only in the womb, but outside the womb to include those jailed and the others I mentioned. I'm sorry you misunderstood what I was saying.

 

[Kristos]

As i've said i cant really relate to the white mans value system, but i know most non-western women with perhaps the exception of China consider it taboo.

But the part of the man being able to walk away, isnt that one of the virtues promoted by western society? Isnt it the feminist argument that men should have no say with a womans body? That underage girls should not have to notify their parents for what they do to their body? That women should be equal, independant and not answer to a man?

So western society by its very design is individualistic and selfish. It also has gotten itself into a quagmire, the need for politicians to attract votes by dividing the ignorant masses into ever more niche groups whom they can cater to. So obvously women became the focus group for the politicians, hence western society with its need for voting blocs to fuel its crappy democracies invented vaginacare.
Isnt it amazing that the entire white world has domestic and foreign policy centered around vaginas?
When women won the right to vote is this what they had in mind? That it will be a vehicle to cater to their vaginas (without the need of a husband at that)? Who would of thought the only thing the suffrage movement wanted was vaginacare (aka abortion).

Am i the only one that finds this just a bit wierd? I live in the worlds strongest superpower and all federal elections centers around a womans vagina! Was this the biggest concern for the byzantine emperor Konstantine Paleologos when the walls of Constantinople were under seige by the Ottomons?

That is the paradox we live with. It is a strange one. The message to fathers is butt out, mind your own business, this a women's issue...that is until they miss a child support check, then they are suddenly a deadbeat Dad who was never around... go figure.

 

[ArmyMatt]

That is the paradox we live with. It is a strange one. The message to fathers is butt out, mind your own business, this a women's issue...that is until they miss a child support check, then they are suddenly a deadbeat Dad who was never around... go figure.

it's just more evidence of our self indulgent, no-consequences-for-our-actions mindset. the same one that inspires the dad to dime out on his kid and the kid's mother just flipped on the other side.

sad times.