Patriarch Bartholomew - slander?

Ariadne_GR

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It's not only about the mother. It is about the child. You have only spoken about the mother as if the child does not exist. Keeping a child may not be the best option for the woman, but killing it in the womb is not doing a kindness to her.

That's right because in my mind the mother's rights trump any "rights" (and I use that term loosely), the unborn might have. The woman is a sentient being. The unborn relies on her for survival and is not viable prior to a certain point. After viability, I will agree with you. Until then, it's her choice what she does in my opinion.

When we talk about arrogantly deciding what is best for another person, or imposing on someone's "rights," how do we not recognize that the child (who may be a woman) has a basic right to life and that killing her is denying HER rights?

See above.

The problem with that argument that "It's MY body," is that it truly ISN'T. It's God's, and the baby in the woman's body is God's, not really hers. It's an individual soul.

So what's a miscarriage then? God deciding the individual soul can't live or the woman's body simply rejecting the pregnancy?
 
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ArmyMatt

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I love how the right to life of a baby, who is a setient being, by the way, is actually a debate. well, in Orthodoxy, it is not. if Christ sanctified the whole man, that includes the zygote, embryo, and fetus.

I don't get it. the Bible says it's murder, the saints say murder, one of the things that defined early Christianity was an opposition to abortion. how is it anything other than murder?
 
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buzuxi02

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The problem is abortion has become a mainstay of western culture. In facts it's what defines western culture more than anything else. Orthodoxy doesn't condone the willful destruction of a fetus, the problem is the Greek church missed the boat on this, they didn't see it coming and dropped the ball. So arguing with Ari is kind of futile, most Greeks simply believe in abortion it has embedded itself into the culture
 
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Ariadne_GR

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I think it's more a product of growing up in modern society, and a lot of education, feminist viewpoints and all. It's not always about believing in abortion. It's more about the choice that it exists. One can disagree with abortion but still allow for the choice to be there for those who need it due to their personal circumstances which I will not judge unless they are using abortion as a method of birth control and are just plain stupid/will die without/are raped etc.

I love the name 'Ari' btw. :thumbsup:
 
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ArmyMatt

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It's a debate if people are willing to think outside their small square. Then again some Christians are afraid of reading about science lest it shake their belief.

not a Christian one, it's really anything but.
 
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Dorothea

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I am in no way advocating abortion with this post, I am against it. Our society considers it right to murder a baby in the womb because the baby cannot survive until a certain point outside the womb. That allows them to argue it is not really life yet since they cannot survive outside the womb. Without that redefining of life it is a whole lot harder to swallow the "woman's right to choose" line because it is two human beings not one human being and a mass of cells discussed.

This is also kind of the point of medical ethicists when they ask, "if it is okay to kill a baby in the womb because it cannot survive outside the womb yet, why is it not okay to kill a baby outside the womb since they cannot survive without the care of a adult?" If it is life than it is life regardless of survival dependency on another human being.

Yes, very true. You could include special needs children, severely handicapped, and the elderly in there, too. All need assistance. Then, it would turn into eugenics.
 
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Dorothea

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So what's a miscarriage then? God deciding the individual soul can't live or the woman's body simply rejecting the pregnancy?
Miscarriage and ectopic pregnancies (for which my first one was) are things that happen sometimes in pregnancy that can't really be explained many of the times. I don't think it's the mother's or child's or God's fault. I think it's part of being in this fallen world.
 
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Dorothea

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I think it's more a product of growing up in modern society, and a lot of education, feminist viewpoints and all. It's not always about believing in abortion. It's more about the choice that it exists. One can disagree with abortion but still allow for the choice to be there for those who need it due to their personal circumstances which I will not judge unless they are using abortion as a method of birth control and are just plain stupid/will die without/are raped etc.

I love the name 'Ari' btw. :thumbsup:
You are right. It is about growing up in a modern society where for the past several decades, feminism has had quite an impact on us women, whether we notice this in ourselves or don't. Because of this, it's harder for us to shed this philosophy and ideology to step outside of this and see it is a worldly thought of women and not really what we as Christian women are to be. Sure, we are equal to men as God made everyone equal, but we still are human beings and not God, so therefore, some of the choices we make, we need to be careful that we aren't doing God's job. And taking another human life is not right, and you are right, judging others is also not up to us. But, as Christians, we must stand against murdering of the innocent, whether in the womb or outside of it.

There are circumstances, as discussed above, that happen in pregnancies, for which the mother is not advocating the death of her child, but rather, when it comes to the point of her life or the child's, the Church does recognize this agonizing human experience happens, and She does condone allowing for the life of the mother to be saved that the baby must not grow inside of her because either both the mother and child will die, or the mother may die. These are exceptions.

I get where you stand on that, and that we cannot tell somebody else what choice to make, but we can, when asked, share our beliefs and support the woman through love and compassion in helping her instead of abandoning her in these difficult times, which happens not too infrequently.
 
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choirfiend

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I am highly educated. I am not ignorant, nor am I hiding my head in the sand. I am aware of the process of pregnancy and birth (it's my secondary profession, after all). I am not living in a "small box," nor do I worry that science will shake my beliefs.

The arguments you make are illogical when you apply them to other situations. Others have pointed this out:
The woman is sentient and the baby is not: They know that babies react, to stimulae and feel pain as early as 12 weeks, possibly earlier. Is the definition of humanity (and thereby human rights, the right to life being paramount) sentience? Logics and laws say no. A person can be in a coma and still have rights. A person can be severely disabled and still have rights. Awareness of the self doesn't even really begin into the baby is born and several months old, yet newborns have rights.

2. the baby relies on the mother and cannot exist without her, so it doesn't count as a separate human. Dorothea pointed out that ALL children need adults to care for them. They would very swiftly die from hunger, thirst, exposure, and accidents if we did not care for them. Mentally disabled adults would also die. There's even the argument that many people who become ill would die without others to provide medical care; does their dependence on others reduce their status as human beings? Logic and laws say no. To draw an arbitrary line of the age of the baby as the point at which it ceases being a mass of cells and begins to be a human is ageism.

3: the age of viability as a deadline for abortion. The age of viability has been getting pushed back farther and farther. It used to be that 34weekers didn't stand much of a chance. Now there are babies who have been born at 23 weeks and survived. Abortion is legal past that point in places. Actually, abortion is legal all the way up to giving birth, if you look closely at the wording of laws. So what was the deciding factor in the 23 weeks old baby being a "human" with rights or a mass of cells for the woman to decide what to do with? Purely her preference.

4. Not believing in it but allowing it for others. There is not other kind of crime for which we make that exception. I don't believe in stealing, but if you feel like you need that piece of jewelry, who am I to tell you not to do it? I don't believe in beating your wife, but if you think she needs to learn her lesson, who am I to not tell you to do it? I don't believe in murder with a chainsaw, but if you think the person needs to be cut up, who am I to tell you to not do it? See, legally, in our system, we have crimes that are always treated as such, no matter what an individuals' opinion on them may be. In no other situation can we say "Well, I think it is wrong, but I can't legally prevent someone else from doing it." Our culture says, "It is wrong, and we will punish those who do it."

Do you see how there is no logical or legal argument that supports abortion? It comes down to making arbitrary points at which a person is worthy (through age, size, development, etc) of the status of "human," or else saying "I think it's a human, but I think you should have the right to kill it anyway." These arbitrary points go against everything else we stand up for with regard to human rights. It is totally reduced to preference of keeping the child or not. There are cases where a mother is beaten and loses her baby. The assailant is charged with manslaughter for the death of the baby. The same mother could have walked into an office and gotten an abortion, legally. What is the factor that changes it from murder to not murder? The wishes of the mother.

This goes beyond the clear teaching that Christ, who was conceived and was a zygote, embryo, fetus, neonate, child, and adult has sanctified all of human existence and was Christ God at all of those development points. This goes beyond the insurmountable teaching that murder of the unborn is in fact murder.

There are no other parts of qualifying as "humanity" that we allow to be dictated by the wishes of another. Eugenics, racism, and other things like Dorothea mentioned stand true here. Jews were subhuman. Blacks were subhuman. Very very young children are currently seen as subhuman. Even without a Christian faith, you can see the parallel. Which is why, hopefully, a generation that fights for human rights will eventually fight for the rights of the very young.
 
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Ariadne_GR

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Do you see how there is no logical or legal argument that supports abortion?

The legal area is my specialty and obviously the laws do not reflect your viewpoint. Why is that? Lawmakers clearly don't see what you so obviously see. :doh:
 
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MariaRegina

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The legal area is my specialty and obviously the laws do not reflect your viewpoint. Why is that? Lawmakers clearly don't see what you so obviously see. :doh:

Please pray and ask the Lord for the gift of discernment.

Those who assist with abortions or commiserate with those who want abortions are equally guilty of murder as accomplices. The mother who allows an abortion to be performed on her is guilty of murder. The Church gives accomplices to murder the same penance as She does to murderers and abortionists.

p.s. I am also highly educated with a Master's Degree.
 
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Ariadne_GR

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Ah, murder of the legal term "murder". Prolifers do it constantly without knowing the true legal definition. It varies country to country, but the mechanics are the same and do not apply to abortion, or abortion wouldn't be legal right now.

Good for you. Master's degrees are great. I have that and am going for a PhD myself.
 
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MariaRegina

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Ah, murder of the legal term "murder". Prolifers do it constantly without knowing the true legal definition. It varies country to country, but the mechanics are the same and do not apply to abortion, or abortion wouldn't be legal right now.

I am using "murder" as used in the Church Canons by the Holy Fathers.

Many of the laws of nations have become corrupted. Thus what is "legal" does not make it right as what is morally "right" has become politically incorrect and legally a crime, while what is morally "wrong" has become "politically and legally correct."

For example, there is a law on the books regarding Prescriptive Easements. Lawyers know how to steal land by using Prescriptive Easements and Adverse Possession. It is morally right? No. Is stealing a property through Prescriptive Easements and Adverse Possession politically correct? Sure. That is how some lawyers acquire land and money.

The Church considers abortion to be equal with murder. Those who help with an abortion (parents, grandparents, relatives, nurses, counselors, doctors, and surgeons) and the woman who asks for an abortion are all considered murderers by the Church.
 
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Kristos

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What Hitler did to the Jews was legal. Does that mean it was right?

Legal? If he lived to stand trial he certainly would have been found guilty of crimes against humanity along with his staff at Nuremberg. The max-penalty for which is death.
 
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Kristos

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That's the only explanation clearly. People cannot possibly be Christian and pro-choice, that would mean they think outside the minute square that you live in. Shocking!

Sorry to jump on the bandwagon here but there nothing Christian about abortion. That in no way means that we reject those who might have fallen into this trap by circumstances, but it also means that we can in no way condone it as a viable option anymore than we can condone rape.

I spent the better part of my youth thinking otherwise. Luckily I was never put in a situation to act on those ignorant beliefs. Changing my mind didn't come easy. It took a lot of research, thought, prayer and experience.
 
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Ariadne_GR

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I changed my mind from prolife when I was younger to prochoice. You don't need to 'act' on the beliefs yourself, I'll never need one, I shouldn't care, right? Wrong, I care about women having the right to choose what happens in their body, particularly in cases of rape/incest/medical need. There are some in the prolife side that won't even agree with those three circumstances and for me that is wrong.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I changed my mind from prolife when I was younger to prochoice. You don't need to 'act' on the beliefs yourself, I'll never need one, I shouldn't care, right? Wrong, I care about women having the right to choose what happens in their body, particularly in cases of rape/incest/medical need. There are some in the prolife side that won't even agree with those three circumstances and for me that is wrong.

if it's women's rights to their body, than you should be fighting as hard for suicide, prostitution, and all forms of drug use, because that's just women's bodily rights as well.

plus, the baby is not part of the woman's body because the baby does not share her DNA.

the whole right to body thing is bogus
 
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