Pathologizing Masculinity

[OldWiseGuy]

Changing social roles for mothers doesn't entail that it's "everyone for themselves." Why can't it be, "everyone in this together"?

In our household we talk a lot about how we're a team. People might take different roles in a team - or even swap sometimes - but we're still a team.

I believe in the family team working for a common goal. That's what families are for. However this is not the reality today, as half of marriages fail to keep the team together.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

They should remain single then.

 

[Paidiske]

I believe in the family team working for a common goal. That's what families are for. However this is not the reality today.

Not the reality today... for some?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Not the reality today... for some?

For half. The main problem is that many are marrying the wrong person, for the wrong reasons (been there done that).

But I wouldn't project my marital success, or failure, on society in general. Let the facts speak for themselves, and it seems to me that the marital state of America is in pretty bad shape. Further, I believe that a return to traditional roles (as much as is possible) would be helpful.

 

[dms1972]

Yeah... I think there's no reason to accept his claim about a "more fundamental reality." God is neither male nor masculine (though Scripture can and does use masculine, feminine and non-biological metaphors for God). That we conceive of God as such is a limitation of our thinking and language.

If God is not Masculine or if its not an attribute of God, where does masculinity come from then?

"The very fact that through the entire history of human thought, from Greek to contemporary philosophy, the theme of 'existence' versus 'essence' has occupied the minds of men, means simply that there is no empirical observation which does not give us the sense of the wider implication. Every empirical fact contains its 'beyond'. The body of science, like those corpses in ancient legends, is always in search of a supplement d'ame. " ( Karl Stern. The Flight from Woman)

 

[Paidiske]

God is not Masculine - were you get that from?

Where would you get the idea that God is masculine? God transcends gender. The Scriptures speak of God in a variety of terms, including masculine, feminine, and some with no gender connotations (eg. God is a rock, God is light, God is love).

Where does masculinity come from then.

God doesn't have to be something to create it. Otherwise we might just as much say that God is avian, else where did birdlikeness come from?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

God is not Masculine - were you get that from? Where does masculinity come from then. "Every empirical fact contains its beyond" wrote Karl Stern, its either that or else we are left in the morass of social constructivism, just making it all up as we go along - is that what you believe?

True. We are even different spiritually as well as physically.

 

[Paidiske]

True. We are even different spiritually as well as physically.

On what do you base this claim?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Where would you get the idea that God is masculine? God transcends gender. The Scriptures speak of God in a variety of terms, including masculine, feminine, and some with no gender connotations (eg. God is a rock, God is light, God is love).



God doesn't have to be something to create it. Otherwise we might just as much say that God is avian, else where did birdlikeness come from?

God, and of course Jesus, identify themselves as male. Who are we to argue. Other terms are attributes and don't reflect gender.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

On what do you base this claim?

Obvious differences in attitudes and behaviors, which arise from the human spirit: the "spirit in man(kind)."

 

[dms1972]

Where would you get the idea that God is masculine? God transcends gender. The Scriptures speak of God in a variety of terms, including masculine, feminine, and some with no gender connotations (eg. God is a rock, God is light, God is love).



God doesn't have to be something to create it. Otherwise we might just as much say that God is avian, else where did birdlikeness come from?

The Bible never said birds were made in God's Image. However it does say human beings are. Lewis's point is that gender has its origins in God. God is not made in our image, we are made in His, that were I get it the idea from, that and christian scholars like Lewis, Leanne Payne, Karl Stern.

 

[dms1972]

God, and of course Jesus, identify themselves as male. Who are we to argue. Other terms are attributes and don't reflect gender.

God never identifies as male, maleness refers to biological sex, masculinity and femininity are qualities.

 

[Paidiske]

God, and of course Jesus, identify themselves as male. Who are we to argue. Other terms are attributes and don't reflect gender.

Jesus is male in his humanity. But God as God has no sex or gender.

Obvious differences in attitudes and behaviors, which arise from the human spirit: the "spirit in man(kind)."

I don't believe in those "obvious" differences arising from the human spirit (I don't believe in gendered spirits, nor do I see a Biblical basis for such a claim). I do believe men and women are socialised differently and may sometimes behave differently because of that.

 

[dms1972]

Both men and women have in them masculine and feminine qualities. The masculine has to be called to life, blessed or affirmed from without, by a father. There is a complimentary nature to masculine and feminine. For men their primary gender identity is masculine, but it needs balanced with the feminine (or you get what's called a "man's man"). In women the primary gender identity is feminine, but it need complemented also by the masculine. Quoting Helene Deutech: "in the psychic budget of the individual the two components, male and female, must be linked in harmony." Lack of integration, unbalance of the two principles leads to an "troubled destiny".

 

[Paidiske]

Both men and women have in them masculine and feminine qualities. The masculine has to be called to life, blessed or affirmed from without, by a father. There is a complimentary nature to masculine and feminine. For men their primary gender identity is masculine, but it needs balanced with the feminine (or you get what's called a "man's man"). In women the primary gender identity is feminine, but it need complemented also by the masculine. Quoting Helene Deutech: "in the psychic budget of the individual the two components, male and female, must be linked in harmony." Lack of integration, unbalance of the two principles leads to an "troubled destiny".

But on what do you base any of these claims? The masculine has to be "called to life"? Don't we all? Isn't that what God does in and for each of us?

This sounds more like Eastern philosophy (ideas of balance of yin and yang etc) than anything identifiably Christian.

 

[dms1972]

I get these from Leanne Payne and her books, and from some of the other writers I mentioned which I believe are sound. In putting it in brief and in my own words I may not be doing justice to Payne's exposition. The masculine can be blessed, affirmed in women too, but a woman's primary gender identity is feminine.

 

[Paidiske]

A quick google is enough to tell me I don't consider Leanne Payne to be sound at all, given the claims she makes.

What were her credentials?

 

[dms1972]

I have no idea what your 'Google search' showed you, or what "claims" came up.

She was in Pastoral Care work for over thirty years, she founded a ministry called Pastoral Care Ministries. Many regard her as a pioneer in healing prayer. She wrote about seven books, most translated into several languages. She has studied and taught the writings of CS Lewis, as well as putting together the Marion Wade Archive of his letters. She has a B.A. with honors and an M.A with high honors in Theological Studies from Wheaton College, and and M.Ed. in English Education from the University of Arkansas.

 

[Paidiske]

The red flag for me was stuff about "curing" homosexuality. Conversion therapy is dangerous and damaging, and anyone practising or recommending it immediately goes into my "unsound" basket.

 

[dms1972]

The red flag for me was stuff about "curing" homosexuality. Conversion therapy is dangerous and damaging, and anyone practising or recommending it immediately goes into my "unsound" basket.

Why? Can God not effect change (transformation) to bring about his original intention in those who he has redeemed for their sexuality - ie hetero-sexuality? Why could God not do this if he so wishes?