Pastors and Prophets

[HappyHope]

(Sorry if this had been widely discussed here before. I'm new-ish.)

Thoughts on being gifted as a church pastor versus being gifted as a prophet? I realize answers will vary greatly. I'm cool with this.

I've come to believe not all pastors have the gift of prophecy as some spiritual gifts tests imply. Of course, the Bible distinguishes between pastors and prophet. At the same time, it also shows many instances of prophets in pastoral roles. So the overlap might seem confusing.

I'm beginning to believe pastors and prophets can be very different callings indeed. And they dont always get along either. But when they do, it makes for a beautiful and powerful working relationship in the body of Christ.

Prophets seem to be a bit more of a suffering servant because even church leadership tends to reject them. Bummer considering their life's passion is wrapped up in service to Christ. I read a comment calling prophets today the "New Covenant police. " Food for thought.

To be fair, pastors take a lot of flack too but often find support inside the church. They seem to have it a little cozier. Maybe this is why pastors are listed below prophets in the hierarchy? Though both pastors and prophets can feel isolated no doubt.

Found a book called Pastors and Prophets: Protocol for Healthy Churches. Looks interesting. Also, I've come across a few articles distinguishing between pastors and prophets. One showed the strengths and weaknesses associated with each gift. It feels accurate.

Also, thoughts on the possibility God is activating his prophets in more intense ways lately? At least around American churches in modern times? Just a personal perception anyway.

*Last, I'm not abandoning this thread. Got a long trip coming up. I wanted to get my thoughts out in front of other believers. Cheerio! And onward in Christ! ❤❤❤

 

[BobRyan]

(Sorry if this had been widely discussed here before. I'm new-ish.)

Thoughts on being gifted as a church pastor versus being gifted as a prophet? I realize answers will vary greatly. I'm cool with this.

I've come to believe not all pastors have the gift of prophecy

It is my experience that none do.

 

[Goodhuman]

I don't find it ok to be pastor, you can be priest which is real service but I don't find it ok too.
And prophet means somebody who can prophesy. This I find the most bad thing.

 

[tturt]

This forum is only for posters who believe in spiritual gifts --- today.

 

[Tolworth John]

Thoughts on being gifted as a church pastor versus being gifted as a prophet? I realize answers will vary greatly. I'm cool with this.

Do you mean you are being gifted or on ministers in general?

What aspect of prophet do you mean?

A prophet primarily forth told, that is explained the already revealed word of God.
The foretelling, predicting the future was a minority part of there role.


Every minister should forth tell scripture.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

prophecy is speaking forth the word of the LORD and many now take that as someone with a new revelation like they have God's phone number and he is calling them up and telling them some revelation that we need but way to often the prophet seems to be speaking his own words and seeks the glory for themselves. At a prayer meeting the gift of prophecy is most often a scripture that comes to mind that is a word for someone or the group and that is for sure the word of the LORD. A prophet of the LORD must be 100% so if you take the modern so called apostles and prophets and check their record their predictions have failed over and over again. People like to be wound up in an emotional state and they can run the gold dust through the vents and claim angles are all around and turn church into a laughing circus with people convulsing on the floor which is certainly a manifestation of a spirit but what spirit? If you look at kundalini yoga they experience those types of crazy manifestations. Many of these people put hands on you and try to impart something upon you and they speak some sort or hyped call on your life. If you look into this again this has failed largely.
I have seen the gifts of the Spirit working and most often they are working naturally in a way that you know it was from the LORD but often not at the same moment. For instance one Sunday I was talking before church to a brother and Ii shared with him 3 Bible passages from 3 separate books and the pastors sermon was not in any of these books yet he used all 3 passages starting and ending exactly where I did. Me and the fellow I shared with were blown away as the odds of this are impossible so when you see an echo like that it is a confirmation that that verse is speaking to you. Many are not in the word of God and miss out on the most clear consistent message from God is going to be listening to His Spirit amplify His word into your life. My sheep hear my voice..This is the combination of the word of God and the Spirit of God.
We are warned of false teachers and prophets and told that they will use flattery as a means of covetousness. As you see the most visible prophets in the church are such men and women using the word of faith and signs and wonders and flattery to get you to sow that seed of faith. $$$$. Test all things by the word.

 

[BobRyan]

This forum is only for posters who believe in spiritual gifts --- today.

True - and I do ...

that includes the gift of prophecy as God describes it in Numbers 12:6
"If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, shall make Myself known to him in a vision.
I shall speak with him in a dream."

by contrast

prophecy is speaking forth the word of the LORD and many now take that as someone with a new revelation

1 Cor 14
26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Also, thoughts on the possibility God is activating his prophets in more intense ways lately? A

I believe in some form of Continuism, that is actually normal/orthodox for Christianity historically speaking. But as for the Charismatic movement, and the "Prophetic Movement" in particular, I have been following that for 30 years, and well the track record is very problematic etc.

e.g. There were tape sermon series on "the Church of the 90s" predicting all kinds of stuff that didn't happen.

e.g. There also have been numerous prophecies of revival, especially ones centered on US presidents like Bill Clinton, and Obama etc. that didn't happen.

e.g. I would also point to the "Apostolic Commissioning" of Todd Bentley as a major case in point that highlights a number of problems with the movement.


Besides that there is a lot of problems as far as ethics etc. especially with money and mammon. I'm starting to believe some of the "anti-christ" passages of the NT are referring to people claiming to be "anointed" rather than people claiming to be thee Christ... even though yes there is plenty of the former around.

 

[tturt]

Pastors' primary responsibility is to feed the sheep (Jer 23).

There are differences between speaking prophetically and being a prophet..
"For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted." I Cor 14:31 "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;..." Eph 4:11.

Some believers serve in both capabilities such as Paul (Acts 20, 27).

You can usually tell those who have prophetic giftings on these forums.

 

[BobRyan]

I believe in some form of Continuism, that is actually normal/orthodox for Christianity historically speaking. But as for the Charismatic movement, and the "Prophetic Movement" in particular, I have been following that for 30 years, and well the track record is very problematic etc.

Ok so given that there are errors out there and setting them aside for the moment - tell us about the form of continuism you believe to be true if you don't mind.

 

[HappyHope]

prophecy is speaking forth the word of the LORD and many now take that as someone with a new revelation like they have God's phone number and he is calling them up and telling them some revelation that we need but way to often the prophet seems to be speaking his own words and seeks the glory for themselves. At a prayer meeting the gift of prophecy is most often a scripture that comes to mind that is a word for someone or the group and that is for sure the word of the LORD. A prophet of the LORD must be 100% so if you take the modern so called apostles and prophets and check their record their predictions have failed over and over again. People like to be wound up in an emotional state and they can run the gold dust through the vents and claim angles are all around and turn church into a laughing circus with people convulsing on the floor which is certainly a manifestation of a spirit but what spirit? If you look at kundalini yoga they experience those types of crazy manifestations. Many of these people put hands on you and try to impart something upon you and they speak some sort or hyped call on your life. If you look into this again this has failed largely.
I have seen the gifts of the Spirit working and most often they are working naturally in a way that you know it was from the LORD but often not at the same moment. For instance one Sunday I was talking before church to a brother and Ii shared with him 3 Bible passages from 3 separate books and the pastors sermon was not in any of these books yet he used all 3 passages starting and ending exactly where I did. Me and the fellow I shared with were blown away as the odds of this are impossible so when you see an echo like that it is a confirmation that that verse is speaking to you. Many are not in the word of God and miss out on the most clear consistent message from God is going to be listening to His Spirit amplify His word into your life. My sheep hear my voice..This is the combination of the word of God and the Spirit of God.
We are warned of false teachers and prophets and told that they will use flattery as a means of covetousness. As you see the most visible prophets in the church are such men and women using the word of faith and signs and wonders and flattery to get you to sow that seed of faith. $$$$. Test all things by the word.

Awesome how the verses you used came up in the sermon like they did. I wonder if a pastor heard them and found them powerful and timely? This is what tends to happen in my experience. But nothing is beyond our Lord though. Maybe it was a God-incidence. HE specializes in those.

I agree the gift of prophecy is not about pretending to have any new revelations. The canon is closed. False prophets have such a long ugly history. No, thank you. I'm not going to touch on the sign gifts. I understand this specific forum is not the place.

The gift of prophecy has a way of getting the attention of church leadership even if you try very hard to avoid getting their attention- church after church. There is just something about the way a prophet uses words & verses coupled with relevant timing pastors can't seem to resist. Prophets are often quoted by church leadership but might be held at a distance or pushed away. A too hot to handle situation. Or pastors try to suppress prophets nor oppress them with overt bullying and taunting. (Not always though)

It's not about new truth, but it is about truth. It's a God moving kind of thing to stir hearts. Pastor Rick Warren recently said something along the lines of "The job of a prophet is to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable." I can testify to that! Sometimes prophets make pastors very uncomfortable, but not always. I know one excellent exception and another decent exception. It just depends. That's my perception anyway. Thanks for interacting with the thread!

 

[BobRyan]

Some believers serve in both capabilities such as Paul (Acts 20, 27).
You can usually tell those who have prophetic giftings on these forums.

That is true.

Suppose we had an actual prophet on the board - what do you suppose would happen if they heard something from the Bible that went against a deeply held tradition? would God instantly reveal it to them or would they need some time to sort it out?

Let's say for the sake of argument that there was a smattering of such gifted folks in the leadership of every denomination... just how long do you think it would take for those denominations to either merge or for all the prophets to leave their denominations and join together into one that had all the right doctrine?

In every case in scripture - when a real prophet shows up - they make amazing transforming differences...

Moses, John the baptizer, Paul etc.

 

[HappyHope]

I believe in some form of Continuism, that is actually normal/orthodox for Christianity historically speaking. But as for the Charismatic movement, and the "Prophetic Movement" in particular, I have been following that for 30 years, and well the track record is very problematic etc.

e.g. There were tape sermon series on "the Church of the 90s" predicting all kinds of stuff that didn't happen.

e.g. There also have been numerous prophecies of revival, especially ones centered on US presidents like Bill Clinton, and Obama etc. that didn't happen.

e.g. I would also point to the "Apostolic Commissioning" of Todd Bentley as a major case in point that highlights a number of problems with the movement.


Besides that there is a lot of problems as far as ethics etc. especially with money and mammon. I'm starting to believe some of the "anti-christ" passages of the NT are referring to people claiming to be "anointed" rather than people claiming to be thee Christ... even though yes there is plenty of the former around.

I'm not referring to any kind of futuristic statements --past or present. Just that the American church seems to be especially frail in some areas and things are getting more lively on the spiritual end.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Ok so given that there are errors out there and setting them aside for the moment - tell us about the form of continuism you believe to be true if you don't mind.

Sure. I might even do a thread on it. At least if there is enough interest in something like that.

1) As a young cradle Lutheran I was taught when taking Catechism class that all the miracle stuff of the Bible was over it had died out "with the death of the last apostles of the Bible". That position however was not really something that Luther believed. From what I can tell later on reading some of his bio he was somewhat open to things like praying for the sick, and there are a few testimonial events in Luther's background that have been buried etc. But anyway for people who invented slogans like "Sola Scriptura", that was a very dogmatic position that had very weak scriptural support.

And in fact, I do see more scriptural support that some form of gifts will continue until we have entered "the life to come". They will officially end due to being rendered obsolete. e.g. - There is no need for healing for instance when you have been given a perfect incorruptible body, and death itself has ceased.

e.g. - there is no need for revelatory gifts when you can just talk to Jesus face to face or otherwise ask God something directly.




2) I do believe there are seasons that affect the supernatural as far as believers are concerned. During the few centuries prior to Christ being born there seems to be very little if any supernatural stuff going on in Judaism. Maybe there was the Hanukkah miracle, but what I've read on that the historicity of it is dubious and even if it is true that would be very very minor in its scope. The Talmud I think mentions some Bat Kol heavenly voices, and that also could go either way. My point however is saying this is, I believe God Sovereignly allows things like this for his own purposes. So in the case of the New Testament and the "Silent Years", I think that time happened to act as a foil so to speak, so Jesus might be recognized as the potential Messiah of Israel, all those exorcisms, healings, and wonders made him stick out like a sore thumb.


Well I will try to write a bit more tomorrow.

 

[tturt]

Pastors and prophets need to work together. "Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." (I Thess 5:20-21). So prophetic words are checked against Scripture (Acts 17:11), can asks The Holy Spirit for confirmation (Matt 18:16; Acts 9;9-19 especially v 10-12; II Cor 13:1), fast, asks for spiritual discernment, does it point to Yeshua, and receive G_dly counsel (Prov 11:14).

Definitely there are differences between OT and NT prophets such as:
In the Old Testament, God spoke to the prophets primarily. Compared to New Testament, John 10,:27, God speaks to all believers.

Also, New Testament, I Cor 1 establishes that's it's written to believers
- We're to desire to prophesy (I Cor 14:1).
-"For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted." (I Cor 14:31). If it is to be delivered, it's to be done in love. It's to edifiy and exhort and comfort. (I Cor 14:3). Howver, there are differences between speaking prophetically and being a prophet such as Agabus in Acts 11. When in a church or at a church function, you follow the procedure your or that church has established. Sometimes that means it's submitted in writing to an associate pastor. Other prophets judge the prophetic word and the spirit of the prophets (I Cor 14:29, 32). Again it depends on how that church has it set up.

 

[HappyHope]

Ok, I just did a partial skim of "Understanding Prophetic People" by R. Loren Sandford. Interesting take.