Pastors and Lamborghinis

[NDL]

I guess I just think it wiser to learn from those whose steps I wish to follow...rather than learning from those I do not desire to be like.

I see what you're saying; I once went to a legalistic church, and the Pastor would always kick a man when he was down: "Lets scrutinize the screwup of the week." His practice used to grate on my nerves, and I learned to focus on walking rightly, instead of focusing on the faults of others.

On the flipside: there's something to be gleaned from the mistakes of others. Just this evening, I got into a conversation with someone about a church we used to attend. I love the Pastor, but I kindly told him that his approach is faulty, and because his approach to the ministry is faulty, the problems in the church would never be corrected. And if there is no remedying the problems in the church, then I can no longer attend their fellowship.

(Before anyone jumps on this , I will tell you why his approach was faulty: the majority of the messages in his pulpit were appeals to salvation/evangelistic messages - yet the Pastor couldn't understand why his congregants stayed in perpetual infancy. I couldn't persuade the Pastor that his approach wasn't working, in spite of the long term fruit of his approach)

 

[grantdenning]

RaymondG said: ↑
How does the contemplation of possible mishandling of funds, help us in anyway? Does it make us feel better about ourselves because we are not doing it? Or doesn't it make us feel blessed and glad that our churches are not like those churches over there? Or should it make us feel that we should not give as much as we do so that others don't have this much money to pay pastors?

I'm not sure what exactly Is the good that can come from talking negatively of others who are a part of our same religion.

When we turn a blind eye to evil, it encourages more evil. In Australia, we have recently had a royal commission into institutional child abuse. It showed that child abuse was rampant in the catholic & other churches. Many of the churches knew that the child abuse was happening, however their response was to cover up the child abuse, not try to stamp it out or to report the offenders to the authorities. This has also happened in many other places throughout the world, especially with the Catholic church.

The revelations of the child abuse & cover up has rightly caused a lot of damage to the church. So would you rather call out wrong doing when you see it, & try to change the culture, or would you rather pretend it isn't happening like the churches did with child abuse, & wait until the wrongdoing gets so rampant that the government is forced to intervene?

Did Jesus turn a blind eye to the wrongdoers such as the money changers in the temple, or did he call it out? The money changers weren't doing anything illegal either, however Jesus thought they were being unethical & against God.

Why are some Christians happy to call out minor wrongdoing amongst others in society, but also happy to look the other way about major wrongdoing by some of the church leaders?

 

[NDL]

Why are some Christians happy to call out minor wrongdoing amongst others in society, but also happy to look the other way about major wrongdoing by some of the church leaders?

What you wrote touched upon a nerve; I can't speak to other era's, but today it seems as though there are two extremes within the body: on one hand are the Scripturally illiterate, and on the other hand are the Pharisee's (Matt 23:24). No?

 

[RaymondG]

When we turn a blind eye to evil, it encourages more evil. In Australia, we have recently had a royal commission into institutional child abuse. It showed that child abuse was rampant in the catholic & other churches. Many of the churches knew that the child abuse was happening, however their response was to cover up the child abuse, not try to stamp it out or to report the offenders to the authorities. This has also happened in many other places throughout the world, especially with the Catholic church.

The revelations of the child abuse & cover up has rightly caused a lot of damage to the church. So would you rather call out wrong doing when you see it, & try to change the culture, or would you rather pretend it isn't happening like the churches did with child abuse, & wait until the wrongdoing gets so rampant that the government is forced to intervene?

Did Jesus turn a blind eye to the wrongdoers such as the money changers in the temple, or did he call it out? The money changers weren't doing anything illegal either, however Jesus thought they were being unethical & against God.

Why are some Christians happy to call out minor wrongdoing amongst others in society, but also happy to look the other way about major wrongdoing by some of the church leaders?

When Jesus condemned not the adultress, was he too, turning a blind eye to eye....and encouraging more of the same?

Do you not think there were rumors around child abuse before someone thought to stop talking negative about the negative, and start taking action to make change?

The question is, what good is this thread doing for anyone? What change does talking negatively about this preacher, cause outside of us.......Inside....we are encouraging people to judge negatively and to harbor negativity...to their detriment....but it does nothing for change outside.

Im all for change....for moving forward for the good....... but how is this being accomplished in this thread. How am I better, or the world....but talking about someone most people believe is doing wrong?

When I turn on the lights......I can look as hard as I like to find some darkness.....but I will not be able to.......until my light starts going dim.....

 

[grantdenning]

When Jesus condemned not the adultress, was he too, turning a blind eye to eye....and encouraging more of the same?

Do you not think there were rumors around child abuse before someone thought to stop talking negative about the negative, and start taking action to make change?

The question is, what good is this thread doing for anyone? What change does talking negatively about this preacher, cause outside of us.......Inside....we are encouraging people to judge negatively and to harbor negativity...to their detriment....but it does nothing for change outside.

Im all for change....for moving forward for the good....... but how is this being accomplished in this thread. How am I better, or the world....but talking about someone most people believe is doing wrong?

When I turn on the lights......I can look as hard as I like to find some darkness.....but I will not be able to.......until my light starts going dim.....

Again you are totally missing the point. The pastor who was building the big mansion wasn't doing anything illegal. He could have been perfectly open about it, & face no legal ramifications at all. However the fact that he tried to hide behind a veil of secrecy shows that he KNOWS that what he is doing is unethical.

It took a major news report that was shown to millions of viewers to bring to light what was happening. I live in Australia, & I even know about it, because it is on YouTube.

Had the church elders (who are all scratching one another's backs) been open in the 1st place to their own congregation & the public in general, it might not have become a major news story. Do you think the news story has caused damage to the church & your religion? You can bet it has.

When non-Christians hear other Christians putting down LGBTQ persons for instance, & campaigning against their right to marry etc, yet turning a blind eye against people in their own churches who are committing sin, then it does the Christian community no favours at all.

 

[RaymondG]

Again you are totally missing the point. The pastor who was building the big mansion wasn't doing anything illegal. He could have been perfectly open about it, & face no legal ramifications at all. However the fact that he tried to hide behind a veil of secrecy shows that he KNOWS that what he is doing is unethical.

It took a major news report that was shown to millions of viewers to bring to light what was happening. I live in Australia, & I even know about it, because it is on YouTube.

Had the church elders (who are all scratching one another's backs) been open in the 1st place to their own congregation & the public in general, it might not have become a major news story. Do you think the news story has caused damage to the church & your religion? You can bet it has.

When non-Christians hear other Christians putting down LGBTQ persons for instance, & campaigning against their right to marry etc, yet turning a blind eye against people in their own churches who are committing sin, then it does the Christian community no favours at all.

I find no fault in any of your beliefs.

 

[NDL]

When Jesus condemned not the adultress, was he too, turning a blind eye to eye....and encouraging more of the same?

In this, Jesus ignored nothing; He was *reacting* to the self righteous, sanctimonious, attitude of the Pharisee's. In parting with the woman, He told her "go and sin no more" - which is to ignore nothing.

***
There has to be a balance here, between being hypercritical vs saying nothing.

The Pharisee's trademark were to squabble over minor things, while ignoring major things; such marks a spirit of legalism; they ignore the plank in their own eyes, while focusing on the splinter in their brother's eyes. The problem is not the action, it's the spirit behind the action.

 

[RaymondG]

In this, Jesus ignored nothing; He was *reacting* to the self righteous, sanctimonious, attitude of the Pharisee's. In parting with the woman, He told her "go and sin no more" - which is to ignore nothing.

***
There has to be a balance here, between being hypercritical vs saying nothing.

The Pharisee's trademark were to squabble over minor things, while ignoring major things; such marks a spirit of legalism; they ignore the plank in their own eyes, while focusing on the splinter in their brother's eyes. The problem is not the action, it's the spirit behind the action.

Would you say the purchase of a 200k car is a major thing or a minor thing? And why?

 

[grantdenning]

Would you as the purchase of a 200k car is a major thing or a minor thing? And why?

If a person purchases a $200K car from money they have earnt honestly, & paid tax on, & is upfront & transparent about where the money came from it is nobody's business but theirs.

However if the 200K car is financed from a tax free pastors allowance, & the fact hidden from the public & church congregation, it is totally unethical.

 

[NDL]

Would you say the purchase of a 200k car is a major thing or a minor thing? And why?

I know a Husband/Wife couple, who relayed to me the following story:

A wife asked her husband what he would like for Christmas. He didn't want anything, but he knew that that wasn't an option, so he settled on a watch.

He forwarded his Wife the pictures of two watches; both were nice, Citizen branded, watches; one watch had a gold face and band, and the other watch had a stainless/gold face and band. The husband favored the gold watch. The Wife turned to her Husband and said: "don't get the gold watch, lest you wear it while you are preaching, and the shiny "bling" factor of the gold watch causes for some in the congregation to slander Christ."

I see the woman in the above story as being wise, and, whether she was unnecessarily prudent or not, her character shows that her aim is to honor Christ.

 

[RaymondG]

I know a Husband/Wife couple, who relayed to me the following story:

A wife asked her husband what he would like for Christmas. He didn't want anything, but he knew that that wasn't an option, so he settled on a watch.

He forwarded his Wife the pictures of two watches; both were nice, Citizen branded, watches; one watch had a gold face and band, and the other watch had a stainless/gold face and band. The husband favored the gold watch. The Wife turned to her Husband and said: "don't get the gold watch, lest you wear it while you are preaching, and the shiny "bling" factor of the gold watch causes for some in the congregation to slander Christ."

I see the woman in the above story as being wise, and, whether she was unnecessarily prudent or not, her character shows that her aim is to honor Christ.

Tell me why one would look at a watch and then slander Christ?

 

[NDL]

Tell me why one would look at a watch and then slander Christ?

Because to a lot of folks, preachers who wear fancy jewelry are seen as snake oil salesmen.

 

[Paidiske]

I will admit, I have a personal policy that when I am presiding at communion, I won't wear any jewellery except my wedding ring and (simple) watch. It's not the time and place for displays of wealth or luxury, imho.

 

[NDL]

I will admit, I have a personal policy that when I am presiding at communion, I won't wear any jewellery except my wedding ring and (simple) watch. It's not the time and place for displays of wealth or luxury, imho.

That's no surprise.

What would make me say that? Because you participate on an internet forum, to help guide people in their spiritual path.

Personal experience has shown me that people who're washing the feet of others, are not interested in drawing the focus on themselves.

***

There are some who might disagree with the position that I take, and that's their right . But Mrs Pastor Lamborghini bought Mr Lamborghini a Rolex to celebrate their anniversary. I can't imagine Pastor Lamborghini witnessing to homeless people while wearing a Rolex, nor can I see Mrs Lamborghini driving a 200k vehicle when she serves in a soup kitchen. It just doesn't fit.

How can someone empathize with a guy who's suffering on the street, while wearing a Rolex?

 

[RaymondG]

I stopped wearing a chain around my neck, after having children, so to not hurt then when I laid their heads on my chest.

 

[RaymondG]

How can someone empathize with a guy who's suffering on the street, while wearing a Rolex?

Those who are hungry, do not care about about the car driven by the one giving them food. They are grateful only.

 

[NDL]

Those who are hungry, do not care about about the car driven by the one giving them food. They are grateful only.