Pastor Rob Bell Leaving Mars Hill Church

[Zaac]

What should belivers in eternal torment be called?

I am a follower of Jesus Christ, so can you be more specific, so as to distinguish those who follow Jesus Christ and believe the lost are tortured in eternal hell from those who follow Jesus Christ and believe the lost do not receive eternal life in hell?

What are you looking for? Folks don't become less of a Christ-follower just because they don't correctly understand something of God's word. I personally only begin to wonder if I'm dealing with Christ followers when they continue to push false teachings even after the truth has been given and explained and displayed to be in alignment with the FULL COUNSEl of the word.

And for the record, Hell is not eternal. The Lake of Fire is.

I believe the first group should be called tormentalists, since they believe in eternal torment. What do you think?

If they are my Brothers and Sisters in Christ, I prefer to refer to them as such or by their names.

I know a lot of people have their own picture of who they think God should be. but God is who HE says He is. And He says He has a wrath. And that wrath will be justly poured out upon those who, by choice, reject Him. And the wages of that unforgiven eternal sin---eternal death=eternal separation from God in the place that He has designated.

The Lake of Fire and whatever torment contained therein.

 

[Zaac]

Is there a bible verse that supports this claim? Biblically speaking, of course.

How on earth do yall get all these posts in such short a time?

Physical death--A separation of body and soul. Eccl. 12:7

Spiritual death---A separation fo man and God. Isa 59:1-2

Second death---A separation of man and God. Rev 21:8; 22:14-15

Isa 59:2a Separation of man and God

your sins have made a separation between you
and your God

Isa 59:2b Separation of man and God
And your sins have
hidden His face from you, so that He does not hear


Scripture is full of how Scripture CORRECTLY describes what death BIBLICALLY means,

 

[Timothew]

What are you looking for? Folks don't become less of a Christ-follower just because they don't correctly understand something of God's word. I personally only begin to wonder if I'm dealing with Christ followers when they continue to push false teachings even after the truth has been given and explained and displayed to be in alignment with the FULL COUNSEl of the word.

And for the record, Hell is not eternal. The Lake of Fire is.



If they are my Brothers and Sisters in Christ, I prefer to refer to them as such or by their names.

I know a lot of people have their own picture of who they think God should be. but God is who HE says He is. And He says He has a wrath. And that wrath will be justly poured out upon those who, by choice, reject Him. And the wages of that unforgiven eternal sin---eternal death=eternal separation from God in the place that He has designated.

The Lake of Fire and whatever torment contained therein.

I have to go now, but think about this, The bible says that the wages of sin is death. Don't just dismiss this as heresy, but think about it. It's Romans 6:23. Does the bible ever say that death is not really death? Do the translators of Thanatos ever say that they don't really mean death? Is there any reason to think that death does not really mean death, and eternal life doesn't really mean eternal life? The wages of sin is death, just think about it. Compare Romans 6:23 with other scriptures. Ezekiel 18, 2 Thess 1:9, John 3:16. They all say the same thing.

 

[Zaac]

What is biblical death? Use the bible to support your answer.

Death is the state of not being alive. No heartbeat, no breathing, no brainwaves.
Biblical death is the state of not being alive. Jesus told them plainly, Lazarus is dead. John 11:14

Do not confuse dead with death.

 

[Zaac]

I have to go now, but think about this, The bible says that the wages of sin is death. Don't just dismiss this as heresy, but think about it. It's Romans 6:23. Does the bible ever say that death is not really death? Do the translators of Thanatos ever say that they don't really mean death? Is there any reason to think that death does not really mean death, and eternal life doesn't really mean eternal life? The wages of sin is death, just think about it. Compare Romans 6:23 with other scriptures. Ezekiel 18, 2 Thess 1:9, John 3:16. They all say the same thing.

You be blessed tonight. But I say again, do not confuse dead and death.

 

[washedagain]

See I agree with you on everything you've written here. However my conclusion is still the salvation of all. It is plainly stated in the bible over and bible, yet no one wants to see it. Most who do look at it would rather brush over it and hold onto their 'idols of the heart'. I do not get how people can believe in Eternal torment and not go insane, I mean truly think about it. Someone YOU love in pain forever, no hope of escape, it will never end. Its a sick idea, and it comes from the father of lies.

Scripture doesn't teach eternal torment, it teaches Judgment and Age-abiding Correction. The Good News is actually good for everyone! The Angels proclaimed that it was glad tidings for all people!

I really am trying to understand your theology... tell me.. if there is no hell (I am assuming that you do believe in a heaven) why the need and the encouragement and exhortation to be fishers of men... to go out and preach the gospel till the ends of the earth.. what good is it to know the good news if there is no bad news?

Also, Jesus is called the SAVIOR... what is He SAVING one from?

Thanks.

 

[Zaac]

See I agree with you on everything you've written here. However my conclusion is still the salvation of all. It is plainly stated in the bible over and bible, yet no one wants to see it. Most who do look at it would rather brush over it and hold onto their 'idols of the heart'. I do not get how people can believe in Eternal torment and not go insane, I mean truly think about it. Someone YOU love in pain forever, no hope of escape, it will never end. Its a sick idea, and it comes from the father of lies.

Scripture doesn't teach eternal torment, it teaches Judgment and Age-abiding Correction. The Good News is actually good for everyone! The Angels proclaimed that it was glad tidings for all people!

Scripture teaches that those who reject Christ spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.

People start with "what they want to believe" about the eternalness of the Lake of Fire because it helps to assuage their feelings about the eternal fate of their loved ones.

But our feelings are irrelevant where God has spoken. And in accordance with His word, eternal unforgiven sin will have an eternal separated from God solution in the Lake of Fire.

 

[Zaac]

I really am trying to understand your theology... tell me.. if there is no hell (I am assuming that you do believe in a heaven) why the need and the encouragement and exhortation to be fishers of men... to go out and preach the gospel till the ends of the earth.. what good is it to know the good news if there is no bad news?

Also, Jesus is called the SAVIOR... what is He SAVING one from?

Thanks.

I await with bated breath for the response.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I really am trying to understand your theology... tell me.. if there is no hell (I am assuming that you do believe in a heaven) why the need and the encouragement and exhortation to be fishers of men... to go out and preach the gospel till the ends of the earth.. what good is it to know the good news if there is no bad news?

Also, Jesus is called the SAVIOR... what is He SAVING one from?

Thanks.

I can't speak for Timothew because I'm not intimately acquainted with his theology, but I've studied Bell's work for a long time and am an avid fan of his. I don't know what's been said but he has never denied hell, he's critiqued the western, fundamentalist, theology concerning the nature of hell that's taught in protestant churches (predominantly in American).

However if one were to label Bell's theology concerning hell I would guess that he most aligns with the notion that hell is rehabilitative. In that if someone is sent to hell, the torment and flames that are experienced are reconstructive in nature. Essentially this view sees hell as both retributive and restorative in function.

I agree with this perspective, as it not only seems consistent with God's character (both that he's a loving God but also a just God) and it reconciles scriptures like Colossians 1:20 and 1 Timothy 2:4 to others like Matthew 25:41 and 2 Thessalonians 1:9.

 

[woodpecker]

Watch Full Episodes of I Survived Beyond and Back

Amanda, Matthew, Aimee - Full Episode

Doctors work for three hours to bring a young mother back. A young man drowns as a child and is revived but later in life commits suicide which results in a HELL experience. An eight-year-old girl travels to the Coliseum when she dies.



Amanda, Matthew, Aimee - Full Episode: I Survived Beyond and Back Full Episodes and Videos - Biography.com

 

[Gnarwhal]

Watch Full Episodes of I Survived Beyond and Back

Amanda, Matthew, Aimee - Full Episode

Doctors work for three hours to bring a young mother back. A young man drowns as a child and is revived but later in life commits suicide which results in a HELL experience. An eight-year-old girl travels to the Coliseum when she dies.

Amanda, Matthew, Aimee - Full Episode: I Survived Beyond and Back Full Episodes and Videos - Biography.com

Personally I don't believe those experiences, I think there are rational explanations for those instances only they're not explored because the proponents of the worldview that embraces said experiences prefer the more exciting stories to the rational explanations that may be the case.

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner

 

[Zaac]

I can't speak for Timothew because I'm not intimately acquainted with his theology, but I've studied Bell's work for a long time and am an avid fan of his. I don't know what's been said but he has never denied hell, he's critiqued the western, fundamentalist, theology concerning the nature of hell that's taught in protestant churches (predominantly in American).

However if one were to label Bell's theology concerning hell I would guess that he most aligns with the notion that hell is rehabilitative. In that if someone is sent to hell, the torment and flames that are experienced are reconstructive in nature. Essentially this view sees hell as both retributive and restorative in function.

But that view is unbiblical as there is no Scriptural basis for saying that anybody gets out of hell for anything other than the Great White Throne of Judgment and being cast into the lake of Fire.

What is the Biblical basis for folks getting out of an eternal Lake of Fire?

I agree with this perspective, as it not only seems consistent with God's character (both that he's a loving God but also a just God) and it reconciles scriptures like Colossians 1:20 and 1 Timothy 2:4 to others like Matthew 25:41 and 2 Thessalonians 1:9.

God is not any less loving simply because He has a wrath. His wrath is consistent with His Biblical character and cannot be separated from His love.

This whole theology of people getting out of hell/Lake of Fire again seems to stem from people being upset/scared/weary of what could possibly happen to loved ones who die and reject Christ. Thus, like with the selling of indulgences to get folks out of purgatory, this seems to assuage the feelings of the living.

Neither hell nor the lake of fire gets rid of unforgiven sin. And in looking at God's Biblical character, He does not force people to accept Him. You are saved by grace through faith, not by grace through first hand getting to experience the punishment of hell, and then deciding based upon experience that what He said is true. That's not faith.

 

[woodpecker]

I died from a drug overdose and left my body, I was above my body screaming at myself to get up because this demon making horrible sounds was coming to take me to hell, then my spirit shot back into my body.

I was not a Christian at this time, you do not have to believe this experience, but I have no doubt, I was going to hell.

I have read a few books written by Christian doctors who have witnessed their patients
die and come back with amazing experiences of life beyond.
-----------------

Near Death Experiences – Interviews with six Medical Doctors and one NDE researcher

Near Death Experiences – Interviews with six Medical Doctors and one NDE researcher « Free Christian Teaching

 

[ebia]

Also, Jesus is called the SAVIOR... what is He SAVING one from?

Thanks.

From the mess we've made of things.

 

[Gnarwhal]

From the mess we've made of things.

Indeed.

Creation is being rescued, the entire cosmos, not just human beings.

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner

 

[brightmorningstar]

Yes I agree, Jesus is saving us from the mess we have made.

The gospel is however about Jesus saving us from the mess we have made and not the common idea that we are saving ourselves from a mess God has made.

Love is the key, God is love, not love is god. And that is the alarm bell ringing around the title of Rob Bell's book. Has he fallen for the liberal deception which is really no gospel at all?

I still have yet to read the book.

 

[ebia]

I still have yet to read the book.

Then why not wait until you have before commenting on it?

 

[brightmorningstar]

ebia,

Then why not wait until you have before commenting on it?

Why wait, alarm bells are ringing, I cant comment on the book as to whether they are founded.

 

[ebia]

ebia,
Why wait,

So you know what you're talking about, rather than tilting at other people's strawmen.

Most of what is said about the book is inaccurate hear-say. There's very little if anything in it that hasn't been said before by people ranging from Gregory Nazianzus to CS Lewis and Tom Wright. It's just that it's hit an audience that rarely is exposed to that.

 

[brightmorningstar]

ebia,
Well I will read it before deciding on it.