Passover commands

[Henaynei]

QUESTION FOR TORAH OBSERVANT ONLY

How do those who host Seders handle the Torah command regarding only the circumcised may partake of the Seder?

Exodus 12:43-49
ADONAI said to Moshe and Aharon, "This is the regulation for the Pesach lamb: no foreigner is to eat it. 44 But if anyone has a slave he bought for money, when you have circumcised him, he may eat it. 45 Neither a traveler nor a hired servant may eat it. 46 It is to be eaten in one house. You are not to take any of the meat outside the house, and you are not to break any of its bones. 47 The whole community of Isra'el is to keep it. 48 If a foreigner staying with you wants to observe ADONAI 's Pesach, all his males must be circumcised. Then he may take part and observe it; he will be like a citizen of the land. But no uncircumcised person is to eat it. 49 The same teaching is to apply equally to the citizen and to the foreigner living among you."

Colossians 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, NKJV

And in Romans we meet with the concept of "circumcision of the heart"

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Circumcision of the Heart is Not a New Covenant Idea.

Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Jeremiah 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem.

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[jcpro]

QUESTION FOR TORAH OBSERVANT ONLY

How do those who host Seders handle the Torah command regarding only the circumcised may partake of the Seder?






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The Torah commandment is very clear on the Passover observance.

 

[JRSut1000]

I make every male person who desires to attend our Passover celebration to swear an oath that he is indeed circumcised or else he isnt welcome in my house...

No, I dont do this at all! I consider myself T.O. but I dont require physical cutting of anyone in order to be welcomed into the Lord's table.

 

[Henaynei]

We permit only Jews (Messianic or not) and Christians to partake of the Seder. Circumcision of the flesh and circumcision of the heart.

We explain that one would not invite the unsaved to partake of the Eucharist, would even counsel against it for the sake of their safety, based on scriptural admonition warning dire consequences should the Eucharist be taken unworthily. So, too, with the Passover. It is only for those redeemed from Mitzryim or those redeemed from sin.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[etZion]

QUESTION FOR TORAH OBSERVANT ONLY

How do those who host Seders handle the Torah command regarding only the circumcised may partake of the Seder?






Sent from my iPod touch using CF app

Since we are keeping a Seder and memorial of a memorial, we are not actually keeping the Passover commanded in scripture as that requires a Temple and sacrifices... thus anyone is invited in my opinion. If the Passover could actually be kept in reality, then no uncircumcised person is to eat the Passover... He can participate but not eat the Passover, as that is the command.

 

[Henaynei]

Since we are keeping a Seder and memorial of a memorial, we are not actually keeping the Passover commanded in scripture as that requires a Temple and sacrifices... thus anyone is invited in my opinion. If the Passover could actually be kept in reality, then no uncircumcised person is to eat the Passover... He can participate but not eat the Passover, as that is the command.

I see your point, still, for us, this is the "sacrament" which we are so strongly urged to avoid taking in an "unworthy manner" for our health and safety.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[etZion]

I see your point, still, for us, this is the "sacrament" which we are so strongly urged to avoid taking in an "unworthy manner" for our health and safety.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

Great point.

 

[Steve Petersen]

The 'it' of which no uncircumcised person is to partake is the lamb, not the seder.

Fuller treatment here.

The Talmud permits eating the other elements, but not the Passover Lamb (Pesachim 96a). This is moot because there is no Pesach lamb sacrificed anymore.

 

[Henaynei]

The 'it' of which no uncircumcised person is to partake is the lamb, not the seder.

Fuller treatment here.

The Talmud permits eating the other elements, but not the Passover Lamb (Pesachim 96a). This is moot because there is no Pesach lamb sacrificed anymore.

Ahh... But there is yet more to it..

1 Corinthians 11:23-30 CJB
For what I received from the Lord is just what I passed on to you- that the Lord Yeshua, on the night he was betrayed, took bread; 24 and after he had made the b'rakhah he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you. Do this as a memorial to me"; 25 likewise also the cup after the meal, saying, "This cup is the New Covenant effected by my blood; do this, as often as you drink it, as a memorial to me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord, until he comes.
27 Therefore, whoever eats the Lord's bread or drinks the Lord's cup in an unworthy manner will be guilty of desecrating the body and blood of the Lord! 28 So let a person examine himself first, and then he may eat of the bread and drink from the cup; 29 for a person who eats and drinks without recognizing the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. 30 This is why many among you are weak and sick, and some have died!

To us the this in "Do this in remembrance of Me..." is the Third Cup (aka The Cup of Redemption) and Matzah. Therefore, the whole Seder.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[jcpro]

Ahh... But there is yet more to it..
To us the this in "Do this in remembrance of Me..." is the Third Cup (aka The Cup of Redemption) and Matzah. Therefore, the whole Seder.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

In which case this is no longer a Passover celebration, but something entirely else.

 

[jcpro]

The 'it' of which no uncircumcised person is to partake is the lamb, not the seder.

Fuller treatment here.

The Talmud permits eating the other elements, but not the Passover Lamb (Pesachim 96a). This is moot because there is no Pesach lamb sacrificed anymore.

The afikoman is not the lamb, obviously, but only a representation. Does it mean that the uncircumcized can partake in it? The content and the spirit of the Torah's prohibition says no. And while there are Talmudic exeptions to non Jewish participation(presence only), in the interest of piety we should thread carefully.

 

[pat34lee]

Ahh... But there is yet more to it..
To us the this in "Do this in remembrance of Me..." is the Third Cup (aka The Cup of Redemption) and Matzah. Therefore, the whole Seder.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

If you look before and after the verses mentioned, you will see it is not a seder, or even a meal.

1 Cor. 11
​

20When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
21For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
22What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
--------------------
31For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
33Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
34And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.
​

 

[Steve Petersen]

The afikoman is not the lamb, obviously, but only a representation. Does it mean that the uncircumcized can partake in it? The content and the spirit of the Torah's prohibition says no. And while there are Talmudic exeptions to non Jewish participation(presence only), in the interest of piety we should thread carefully.

The Torah is very specific: No uncircumcised may eat the Pesach. This is the lamb.

Exodus 12:21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover

Obviously you can't kill a Seder. You can't kill matzah. You kill the lamb. Heck, you can't even do this kosher without at Temple and a priesthood. Since there is no Temple, there is no proper lamb.

Here is the quote from the Talmud. It specifically ALLOWS the uncircumcised to eat matzah and bitter herbs. No 'PRESENCE ONLY' restrictions found.

"He shall not eat of it," but he may eat unleavened bread and the bitter herbs. (Pesachim 96a quoting Exodus 12:45)

 

[Henaynei]

In which case this is no longer a Passover celebration, but something entirely else.

From a non-Messianic POV I understand that is how it would be seen.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Henaynei]

If you look before and after the verses mentioned, you will see it is not a seder, or even a meal.
1 Cor. 11
20When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
21For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
22What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
--------------------
31For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
33Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
34And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

1 Corinthians 11:17-34
Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. 18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. 19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. 20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. 21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. 22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of G-d, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the L-rd Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the L-rd, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the L-rd's body. 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the L-rd, that we should not be condemned by the world.
33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. 34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

We see verse 20 as an admonition supported by verse 21: the REASON what they were doing was not "The L-rd's Supper" (aka Paskha) was BECAUSE they were behaving with dishonor and disrespect of their fellows by being selfish. It was SUPPOSED to be "The L-rd's Supper" (aka Paskha) as evidenced by verses 23-26. Then he gives the warning about the effects of the selfish behavior during "The L-rd's Supper" (aka Paskha) in verses 29-31.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[etZion]

The Torah is very specific: No uncircumcised may eat the Pesach. This is the lamb.

Exodus 12:21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover

Obviously you can't kill a Seder. You can't kill matzah. You kill the lamb. Heck, you can't even do this kosher without at Temple and a priesthood. Since there is no Temple, there is no proper lamb.

Here is the quote from the Talmud. It specifically ALLOWS the uncircumcised to eat matzah and bitter herbs. No 'PRESENCE ONLY' restrictions found.

"He shall not eat of it," but he may eat unleavened bread and the bitter herbs. (Pesachim 96a quoting Exodus 12:45)

Agreed, this has been my understanding as well.

 

[jcpro]

The Torah is very specific: No uncircumcised may eat the Pesach. This is the lamb.

Exodus 12:21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover

Obviously you can't kill a Seder. You can't kill matzah. You kill the lamb. Heck, you can't even do this kosher without at Temple and a priesthood. Since there is no Temple, there is no proper lamb.

Here is the quote from the Talmud. It specifically ALLOWS the uncircumcised to eat matzah and bitter herbs. No 'PRESENCE ONLY' restrictions found.

"He shall not eat of it," but he may eat unleavened bread and the bitter herbs. (Pesachim 96a quoting Exodus 12:45)

The interpretation is not that clear and even Rashi, I think, interprets stranger as apostate. The more orthodox interpretation is " A Ben Nechar may not eat Pesach, but he may eat Terumah (some texts - but he eats Matzah and Maror [i.e. if he repents at night] - Tosfos Yevamos 71A" That is in line with the early purity laws about Jews not eating with Gentiles which, of course, is not prohibited by the Torah which only prohibits unclean food. But, we do what we do, because if there is an ambiguity, we prefer to err on the side of caution.

 

[Lulav]

Some could take this:

Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you:

Speaking of the bread and combine that with what John records John saying:

'Behold the Lamb of G-d', and what is included in the Revelation about the Lamb and equate the two as one and the same.

To eat the passover being uncircumcised would be a sin. Yet Corinthians does not mention that at all. Yet it not only mentions a sin but it sounds like an unforgivable one.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the L-rd's body.

This is where the RCC gets the mass from.

What I wonder is, can new sins be added to those in Torah?

 

[Steve Petersen]

The interpretation is not that clear and even Rashi, I think, interprets stranger as apostate. The more orthodox interpretation is " A Ben Nechar may not eat Pesach, but he may eat Terumah (some texts - but he eats Matzah and Maror [i.e. if he repents at night] - Tosfos Yevamos 71A" That is in line with the early purity laws about Jews not eating with Gentiles which, of course, is not prohibited by the Torah which only prohibits unclean food. But, we do what we do, because if there is an ambiguity, we prefer to err on the side of caution.

Then there is the opinion in the Talmud that a Jew who was unclean or away from Jerusalem is regarded as a Gentile in relation to eating the Passover lamb,. They are still required to eat unleavened bread and bitter herbs:

It can be deduced that an unclean person and one who was on a journey [far from Jerusalem is still required to eat unleavened bread and bitter herbs]. Although you might argue that since they cannot eat of the Pesach lamb, they are not required to eat unleavened bread or bitter herbs either; [the Torah] informs us otherwise. What says Raba? "In respect of an unclean person and one who was on a journey a verse is not required, for they are the same as an uncircumcised person and an Gentile. After all, the Torah says, "No uncircumcised person shall eat of it." He may not eat "of it [that is the lamb]", but he must eat unleavened bread and bitter herbs." (Pesachim 120a quoting Ex 12:48)

 

[Lulav]

Does it take into account the second Passover? The one that happens for those unclean or far off on the 14th of the second month?