Passover and Unleavened Bread

[AbbaLove]

Note for gadar: It was late last night when i posted. Reading it again this morning it became apparent some editing was needed for clarification. Also, is this following quote part of your testimony from the website you've been using to support your interpretation of בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם in Exodus 12:6 ...

It just didn't seem right so, prompted by the Holy Spirit, I embarked on a study of it. Once again, the Spirit and the Word convinced me that Messiah did not preexist.

The only reason I want to see Ezra's commentary is because you are pushing it so much, but I don't believe what you say about his belief. I want to verify it, but you have repeatedly failed to provide his commentary.

FWIW you can buy Abraham ibn Ezra's commentary for less than $100 or check it out online. If i can find the site you often quote you should be able to find ibn Izra's online translation. You don't believe Abraham ibn Ezra's interpretation or the post by Henaynei or James Bejon's excellent post that Henaynei agreed was "Well Done!" Here is Henaynei's post which you quickly found fault with his understanding as he believes בֵּין = an interval/space between sunset to sunset ...

the Hebrew is the word erev (well, actually the plural, erevim)

6153 ereb/v: evening
Original Word: עָ֫רֶב
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: ereb/v
Phonetic Spelling: (eh'-reb)
Short Definition: evening-​

This is used in Jewish community many ways one of which is as in "erev Shabbat" which is the entire day from sunset Thursday to sunset Friday. So given the translations of the word עָ֫רֶב = erev/evening and בֵּין = an interval/space between - I'm going with sunset to sunset... "beyn ha'erevim/ha'arbaim" בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם

Henaynei does have a point that the origin of הָעַרְבָּֽיִם is "evening" although you believe a proper translation has to do with daylight hours (sunrise to sunset).

How can it be sunset to sunset? That would be anytime during a 24 hour day. I understand it to mean from the end of one evening (sunrise) to the start of the next evening (sunset). In other words, during the daylight hours.

You have yet to find one verse in the Tanakh where "בֵּ֥ין" (beyn/ben) is translated as "between" in reference to "between the [two] evenings" in the Tanakh when referring to a timeline (e.g. erev/evening sunset to sunset, sunrise to sunset, daylight hours or between noon and 6 pm).

בֵּ֧ין ... "from" "among" "in" "at"
never "between"
( when referring to a timeline in the Tanakh; e.g. Exodus 12:6 )
​

Can you find even one example in the following link out of 167 occurrences of "בֵּ֥ין" (beyn/ben) where it is translated as "between" in reference to a timeline such as between two evenings or between sunrise to sunset ?
​

>>> Hebrew Concordance: bên -- 167 Occurrences <<<​

​

 

[gadar perets]

Note for gadar: It was late last night when i posted. Reading it again this morning it became apparent some editing was needed for clarification. Also, is this following quote part of your testimony from the website you've been using to support your interpretation of בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם in Exodus 12:6 ...

It just didn't seem right so, prompted by the Holy Spirit, I embarked on a study of it. Once again, the Spirit and the Word convinced me that Messiah did not preexist.​

​

Yes, that is part of my testimony. The full paragraph reads as follows:

Over the course of time the preexistence doctrine kept coming up and I kept hearing how Yeshua gave the Ten Commandments, parted the Red Sea, etc. It just didn't seem right so, prompted by the Holy Spirit, I embarked on a study of it. Once again, the Spirit and the Word convinced me that Messiah did not preexist. I then felt led to glorify Yahweh as the Creator and One True Elohim of Israel and Yeshua as the Son of Yahweh through my web site.
​

However, I will not get into a discussion with you about the preexistence doctrine since this forum forbids it. You are welcome to send me a PM to discuss it.

​

FWIW you can buy Abraham ibn Ezra's commentary for less than $100 or check it out online. If i can find the site you often quote you should be able to find ibn Izra's online translation.

If you don't have access to his exact quotes/commentary, then you are just blindly accepting someone's interpretation of his writings. I choose not to do that. Nor do I intend to spend so much money for his commentary. You are welcome to buy it for me as a gift of love

You don't believe Abraham ibn Ezra's interpretation or the post by Henaynei or James Bejon's excellent post that Henaynei agreed was "Well Done!" Here is Henaynei's post which you quickly found fault with his understanding as he believes בֵּין = an interval/space between sunset to sunset ...
Henaynei does have a point that the origin of הָעַרְבָּֽיִם is "evening" although you believe a proper translation has to do with daylight hours (sunrise to sunset).

Henaynei believes like me that "בֵּין= an interval/space between". You added "sunset to sunset" to make it seem like that was part of her definition. While she understands beyn to mean "between", she has the wrong boundaries in which "between" falls. She places it "in" an evening, not "between" two evenings.

 

[gadar perets]

Can you find even one example in the following link out of 167 occurrences of "בֵּ֥ין" (beyn/ben) where it is translated as "between" in reference to a timeline such as between two evenings or between sunrise to sunset ?
​

>>> Hebrew Concordance: bên -- 167 Occurrences <<<​

Your link only includes the KJV and the Biblos Interlinear. Had it included Young's Literal Translation, The Scriptures, The Hebrew Roots Bible, etc., then I would find it in many places.

 

[AbbaLove]

Henaynei believes like me that "בֵּין= an interval/space between". You added "sunset to sunset" to make it seem like that was part of her definition. While she understands beyn to mean "between", she has the wrong boundaries in which "between" falls. She places it "in" an evening, not "between" two evenings.

Thus I'd have to say, given the above translation history and the historical use of erev in the Jewish community, that "between the evenings" most likely means from "one evening to the next" with evening meaning the simplest and straightforward use - evening/dark of one day to evening/dark of the next day between erev(s)

... AND ...​

Part of your confusion is that Henaynei is actually correct as is James Bejon and as is Abraham ibn Ezra as opposed to your interpretation of sunrise to sunset daylight hours and/or afternoon daylight hours

the Hebrew is the word erev (well, actually the plural, erevim) ... So given the translations of the word עָ֫רֶב = erev/evening and בֵּין = an interval/space between - I'm going with sunset to sunset... "beyn ha'erevim/ha'arbaim" בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם

Please Notice ... בערבים | Evenings ... doitinHebrew.com - The Talking Online Hebrew Dictionary and Translation Engine. Learn how to say just about anything in Hebrew.

I noticed that you use also use Strong's Concordance. If you look in Strong's Appendix for "between" you'll notice that "between" isn't used for any of the following Passover verses we've been discussing ...

Exodus 12:8
Numbers 33:3
Leviticus 23:5-6​

As you also noticed there isn't one Tanakh example in the following link of 167 (beyn/ben) occurrences when the Hebrew word "בֵּ֥ין" is translated as "between" when referring to a timeline such as two evenings, sunrise to sunset or afternoon daylight ?

>>> Hebrew Concordance: bên -- 167 Occurrences<<<​

 

[gadar perets]

... AND ...​

Part of your confusion is that Henaynei is actually correct as is James Bejon and as is Abraham ibn Ezra as opposed to your interpretation of sunrise to sunset daylight hours and/or afternoon daylight hours

Why are you appealing to what Henaynei says? Is she an authority on this subject? Who is James Bejon? Why do you appeal to the arguments/commentaries of people? I can give you plenty of names that support my view as well. Deal with what the Scriptures say. They interpret "beyn ha'arbyim".

I noticed that you use also use Strong's Concordance. If you look in Strong's Appendix for "between" you'll notice that "between" isn't used for any of the following Passover verses we've been discussing ...

Exodus 12:8
Numbers 33:3
Leviticus 23:5-6​

​

Of course not. That is because Strong's uses the KJV.

As you also noticed there isn't one Tanakh example in the following link of 167 (beyn/ben) occurrences when the Hebrew word

"בֵּ֥ין" is translated as "between" when referring to a timeline such as two evenings, sunrise to sunset or afternoon daylight ?

>>> Hebrew Concordance: bên -- 167 Occurrences<<<​

"בֵּ֥ין" is not only the primary Hebrew word for "between", but it is also translated "between" more often than any other translation.

I came across this short article which gives the account of Elijah and the prophets of Baal. You can scroll half way down and begin reading where it says, "To recap the story, ..." I would read the entire article if you really want to know the truth.

Also, as long as you continue to believe Yeshua was killed at the wrong time (21 hours too late), you will remain in error.

 

[AbbaLove]

Why are you appealing to what Henaynei says? Is she an authority on this subject? Who is James Bejon? Why do you appeal to the arguments/commentaries of people?

Didn't you mean to say, "agree" with them as it's you who are appealing to me to accept what you believe is your infallible research? You forgot to include Abraham ben Meir ibn Ezra’s Pentateuch Commentary. An excellent resource that many people agree is insightful and noteworthy

Actually, I was working from the Hebrew in the Exodus passage and neither the Pharisaic nor the Sadducean POV.

בַּיִן Bêyn (bane) H996 … For whatever reason "between" is not used by Strong's Concordance in Exodus 12:6. Possibly because Strong's isn't convinced that הָעַרְבָּֽיִם means "afternoon" (noon to 6 pm) or "between the [two] evenings".

Exodus 12:6 H4931And ye shall keep H702 H6240 it until the fourteenth H3117 day H2320 of the same month H3605: and the whole H6951 assembly H5712 of the congregation H3478 of Israel H7819 [H8804] shall kill H996 it in H6153 the evening.​

Numbers 33:3-4
3 They departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the day after the Passover the children of Israel went out with boldness in the sight of all the Egyptians. 4 For the Egyptians were burying all their firstborn, whom the LORD had killed among them. Also on their gods the LORD had executed judgments

Bold print is just as Vis originally posted.

Also, as long as you continue to believe Yeshua was killed at the wrong time (21 hours too late), you will remain in error.

We all agree Yeshua’s crucifixion occurred the same time the Paschal lambs were being killed in the Temple. I never said Yeshua was killed 21 hours after the Paschal lambs were killed in the Temple. Please STOP with misrepresentation and false accusation.

 

[gadar perets]

We all agree Yeshua’s crucifixion occurred the same time the Paschal lambs were being killed in the Temple. I never said Yeshua was killed 21 hours after the Paschal lambs were killed in the Temple. Please STOP with misrepresentation and false accusation.

It is neither a misrepresentation or a false accusation. You are trying to teach us that the Passover lambs of Exodus 12:6 were killed during twilight at the beginning of Abib 14. For Yeshua to be the true Passover Lamb, he should have been killed at twilight at the beginning of Abib 14. Instead, he was killed 21 hours later at 3:00 in the afternoon of Abib 14. Why? Because that is the time the Passover lambs were killed in Exodus 12:6. He fulfilled the Passover sacrifice perfectly. The Jews were not in error by killing the lambs at 3:00 in the afternoon since that is within the definition of "beyn ha'arbayim" as revealed in Exodus 29:39;

The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other (Hebrew = second) lamb thou shalt offer at even (beyn ha'arbayim):​

Since a day ends at sunset, the "second" lamb had to be offered BEFORE sunset. If it was offered AFTER sunset, at twilight, it would be the first lamb of the day.

 

[AbbaLove]

It is neither a misrepresentation or a false accusation. You are trying to teach us that the Passover lambs of Exodus 12:6 were killed during twilight at the beginning of Abib 14.

I'm not trying to teach, but rather trying to figure out why the controversy over which English words best express the intent of בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם by translators as relating to Exodus 12:6 and the first Passover timeline in Egypt.

Perhaps, you need to go back and reread those previous twilight posts in which i defined twilight as also possibly meaning -- the waning late afternoon daylight with respect to Exodus 12:6 (an hour before sunset). So, Yes, misrepresentation and false accusation. Any differential in timeline (e.g. 20-21 hrs) was about the apparent controversy and confusion when translating הָעַרְבָּֽיִם (e.g. evening, twilight, dusk, two evenings). The NASB says, "twilight", but then adds this footnote--"Lit between the two evenings" being interpreted as the 1st evening is sunset and 2nd evening is when at least a few stars are visible (darkness).

Shemot 12:6​

​

(Chabad CJB)
And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon.
Exodus 12:6 (Dr. Stern’s CJB)
You are to keep it until the fourteenth day of the month, and then the entire assembly of the community of Isra’el will slaughter it at dusk.
Exodus 12:6 (Strong's Concordance KJV)
H4931And ye shall keep H702 H6240 it until the fourteenth H3117 day H2320 of the same month H3605: and the whole H6951 assembly H5712 of the congregation H3478of Israel H7819 [H8804] shall kill H996 it in H6153 the evening.​

Whether one's interpretation of בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם is best interpreted as "evening" or "between the two evenings" or "afternoon" is a matter of opinion possibly based on attempting to reconcile the same timeline of the 2nd Temple Pesach Festival with the same timeline as the first Passover in Egypt.

It makes sense that the timelines should be the same. So, one wonders why so many translations are supposedly in error over the correct interpretation of these two words בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם ? One's preference for "sunset to sunset" or "sunrise to sunset" or "afternoon" is naturally with a desire to reconcile these two words to mean "in the afternoon". As you once suggested that the declining of the sun past noon could be considered the first evening with 6 pm being the second evening or in other words ... "between the two evenings" (DARBY).

 

[gadar perets]

Perhaps, you need to go back and reread those previous twilight posts in which i defined twilight as also possibly meaning -- the waning late afternoon daylight with respect to Exodus 12:6 (an hour before sunset).

It doesn't matter whether you believe the lambs were killed at twilight starting Abib 14 or at the end of Abib 13. Neither view allows for Yeshua's death as the true Passover Lamb at the correct time. Isaiah tells us that YHWH smote and bruised His servant (Yeshua). Did He have it done at the wrong time or did Yeshua die at the exact time decreed for the Passover lambs to be killed (between the evenings)?

It makes sense that the timelines should be the same. So, one wonders why so many translations are supposedly in error over the correct interpretation of these two words בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם ? One's preference for "sunset to sunset" or "sunrise to sunset" or "afternoon" is naturally with a desire to reconcile these two words to mean "in the afternoon".

The timelines were always the same. The Jews have always killed the lambs at the end of Abib 14 from Moses day to Yeshua's day.

As you once suggested that the declining of the sun past noon could be considered the first evening with 6 pm being the second evening or in other words ... "between the two evenings" (DARBY).

That was not my suggestion. I was merely giving you the Jewish understanding. My understanding is that the lambs were slain in the afternoon based on Deuteronomy 16:6 "at the going down of the sun". That is from noon until sunset. "Ben ha'arbayim" is from sunrise to sunset if one uses the normal definition of "ereb" as beginning at sunset and ending at sunrise.

 

[AbbaLove]

That was not my suggestion. I was merely giving you the Jewish understanding. My understanding is that the lambs were slain in the afternoon based on Deuteronomy 16:6 "at the going down of the sun". That is from noon until sunset. "Ben ha'arbayim" is from sunrise to sunset if one uses the normal definition of "ereb" as beginning at sunset and ending at sunrise.

You do realize your last sentence seems to be a contradiction. On one hand you say "Ben ha'arbayim" is from sunrise to sunset (12 hour day). While on the other hand you say that "Ben ha'arbayim" begins at sunset and ends at sunrise (12 hour night).

Thus I'd have to say, given the above translation history and the historical use of erev in the Jewish community, that "between the evenings" most likely means from "one evening to the next" with evening meaning the simplest and straightforward use - evening/dark of one day to evening/dark of the next day between erev(s)

As a suggestion don't always be so quick to give the impression that you are always right and anyone that differs with you is wrong.

Translations and commentaries are not reliable proofs.

Can you understand why such a comment raises the proverbial red flag? When have we heard that before (and not just a few times) whether as a Christian non-Jew or as a Messianic Jew

It's not easy for me to accept your premise that your commentary is as accurate as there is and that Messianics should trust it above all other commentaries (e.g. Abraham ben Meir ibn Ezra) when you end your testimony with the belief ...

It just didn't seem right so, prompted by the Holy Spirit, I embarked on a study of it. Once again, the Spirit and the Word convinced me that Messiah [Yeshua] did not preexist.​

 

[gadar perets]

You do realize your last sentence seems to be a contradiction. On one hand you say "Ben ha'arbayim" is from sunrise to sunset (12 hour day). While on the other hand you say that "Ben ha'arbayim" begins at sunset and ends at sunrise (12 hour night).

That is not what I said. Please read more carefully. It will avoid much misunderstanding. I wrote, "... if one uses the normal definition of "ereb" as beginning at sunset and ending at sunrise."

Can you understand why such a comment raises the proverbial red flag? When have we heard that before (and not just a few times) whether as a Christian non-Jew or as a Messianic Jew

Translations and commentaries are not reliable sources compared to what Scripture says in the Hebrew.
You cannot refute Exodus 29:39, 41 and Numbers 28:4, 8 because in the Hebrew text, they are incredibly reliable. The English translations will say "other", but the Hebrew says "second". Therefore, the English translations obscure the truth. Commentators also obscure the truth when they base their commentaries on translation errors. For example, Adam Clarke's commentary for Exodus 29:39 says, "These two lambs, one in the morning, and the other in the evening, were generally termed the morning and evening daily sacrifices, ..." He doesn't realize the Hebrew reads, "the second lamb between the evenings."

It's not easy for me to accept your premise that your commentary is as accurate as there is and that Messianics should trust it above all other commentaries (e.g. Abraham ben Meir ibn Ezra) when you end your testimony with the belief ...

It just didn't seem right so, prompted by the Holy Spirit, I embarked on a study of it. Once again, the Spirit and the Word convinced me that Messiah [Yeshua] did not preexist.​

You can totally disregard any commentary I have given. Just base your view on the Hebrew of the verses I cited above. Also, this is the third time you mentioned that I do not believe Yeshua preexisted. I know you are attempting to discredit my belief about between the evenings by trying to discredit me personally as a teacher of truth. So be it. The Scriptures are on my side with both doctrines.

 

[AbbaLove]

Your link only includes the KJV and the Biblos Interlinear. Had it included Young's Literal Translation, The Scriptures, The Hebrew Roots Bible, etc., then I would find it in many places.

Young's Literal Translation ... like that of the Hebraic Roots Bible and other translations ("between two evenings") are usually interpreted by those same translations as from sunset (1st evening) and end of Abib 13 to dusk/darkness (2nd evening) and the beginning of Abib 14. This is why i previously posted about "twiight" having a different meaning to Jewish interpretation than our western interpretation. These 30-60 minutes of betwixt & between “two evenings” (two days) is not uncommon with these [so-called] literal translations. For example this Exodus 12:6 Footnote in the Hebraic Roots Bible ...

"The Passover is kept until the beginning of the 14th day and killed between the evenings of the ending of the 13th (1st evening) and beginning of the 14th (2nd evening)"​

Would you believe "ben ha'arbayim" has two meanings due to how Judaism defines "twilight." Whether Rashi’s, Ibn Ezra’s or Rashbam’s interpretation current Mosaic Law seems to favor Chabad's CJB based on Rashi's "afternoon" commentary and not a "sunrise to sunset" meaning of "ben ha'arbayim".

• some Rabbis believe the lambs are slaughtered from “the time the sky begins to darken until the last light has left the clouds” i.e. "you shall slaughter the Passover sacrifice in the evening at the going down of the sun" e.g. Deut 16:6 (Rabbi Ibn Ezra's literal interpretation)
• other Rabbis believe "twilight" should be interpreted to mean the declining of the sun anytime before sunset, "that could include the entire afternoon" (Rabbi Rashi and Chabad)

According to Mosaic Law (i.e. ben ha'arbayim) English translations with "between two evenings" (or "twilight") should NOT be interpreted by Messianic Judaism as meaning between sunset and darkness. Therefore Chabad's CJB "in the afternoon" is the preferred MJ interpretation ... not Dr. Stern's CJB interpretation "at dusk".

Shemot 12:6 (Chabad's CJB)
And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon.
Exodus 12:6 (Dr. Stern's CJB)
You are to keep it until the fourteenth day of the month, and then the entire assembly of the community of Isra’el will slaughter it at dusk.​

This difference between "dusk" and "twilight" may seem like only a matter of minutes, but quite the contrary. The OJPS reads "kill it at dusk" implying evening; whereas, the NJPS reads "slaughter it at twilight" which can imply anytime before sunset, "that could include the entire afternoon" as apparently understood by Rashi and Chabad's CJB.

"Ben ha'arbayim" is from sunrise to sunset if one uses the normal definition of "ereb" as beginning at sunset and ending at sunrise.

You interpret "ben ha'arbayim" as meaning "sunrise to sunset" which as far as i can gather wasn't/isn't espoused by Rabbi Rashi, Rabbi Ibn Ezra, Rabbi Rashbam, the Nahmanides, Mosaic Law, Chabad or Messianic Judaism. Is your "sunrise to sunset" interpretation of "ben ha'arbayim" based on the Karaites understanding or your own?

I was merely giving
you the Jewish understanding. My understanding is that the lambs were slain in the afternoon based on Deuteronomy 16:6 "at the going down of the sun". That is from noon until sunset. "Ben ha'arbayim" is from sunrise to sunset if one uses the normal definition of "ereb" as beginning at sunset and ending at sunrise.

A 12 hr day as opposed to a 24 hr day? That’s a big IF!
With respect to Deut 16:6 are you somewhat disappointed that the NJPS reads, "in the evening, at sundown" ... whereas the OJPS reads "at the going down of the sun". According to Rashi “in the afternoon” can also be interpreted as the “twilight” hours before sunset (beginning at noon). So, the next time Messianics read a translation of Exodus 12:6 that reads "twilight" think of it as before sunset, beginning as early as noon and gadar will be a happier camper.

 

[gadar perets]

This difference between "dusk" and "twilight" may seem like only a matter of minutes, but quite the contrary. The OJPS reads "kill it at dusk" implying; whereas, the NJPS reads "slaughter it at twilight" which can imply anytime before sunset, "that could include the entire afternoon" as apparently understood by Rashi and Chabad's CJB.

Please quote their words calling twilight a time before sunset.

​

You interpret "ben ha'arbayim" as meaning "sunrise to sunset" which as far as i can gather wasn't/isn't espoused by Rabbi Rashi, Rabbi Ibn Ezra, Rabbi Rashbam, the Nahmanides, Mosaic Law, Chabad or Messianic Judaism. Is your "sunrise to sunset" interpretation of "ben ha'arbayim" based on the Karaites understanding or your own?

It is my interpretation based on the common meaning of "ereb" meaning from sunset to sunrise. Between two evenings is the daylight portion of a day.

​

A 12 hr day as opposed to a 24 hr day? That’s a big IF!

"Ereb" refers to an evening consisting of 12 hours.

With respect to Deut 16:6 are you somewhat disappointed that the NJPS reads, "in the evening, at sundown" ... whereas the OJPS reads "at the going down of the sun".

Yes.

According to Rashi “in the afternoon” can also be interpreted as the “twilight” hours before sunset (beginning at noon). So, the next time Messianics read a translation of Exodus 12:6 that reads "twilight" think of it as before sunset, beginning as early as noon and gadar will be a happier camper.

That won't make me happier. There is no such thing as "twilight" before sunset.

 

[AbbaLove]

Please quote their words calling twilight a time before sunset.

There is no such thing as "twilight" before sunset.

When it comes to the Talmud and Oral Tradition ... when have the Sages all agreed on the proper interpretation of Torah scripture?

The OJPS reads "kill it at dusk" implying evening; whereas, the NJPS reads "slaughter it at twilight" which can imply anytime before sunset, "that could include the entire afternoon" as apparently understood by Rashi and Chabad's CJB.

AT LEAST TWO INTERPRETATIONS - FOR ONE PASUK
Ibn Ezra(evening-80 minutes) or Rashi(twilight-entire afternoon)​

​

"in the afternoon" ... (Pesachim 61a; Rashi). Literally, 'between the evenings.'​

Perhaps, if you could have attended this symposium (4/30/17) one of the Hebrew scholars could've explained how it is that the NJPS, Chabad's CJB, and The Living Torah by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan interpret "between the evenings" and "twilight" to be understood as "the entire afternoon" as opposed to 80 minutes between sunset and darkness (e.g. Ibn Ezra "between two evenings").
​

A special symposium in celebration of the 100th anniversary of The JPS Holy Scriptures, with many of the nation's leading Bible scholars. After a look back at the last century, representatives from all the major rabbinical seminaries will discuss "Trends in Bible Scholarship and Translation" at the morning session. Scholars involved in the JPS Bible Commentary series will offer "Notes for a New Translation" at the afternoon session ... NMAJH EVENT:The Future of American Jewish Bible Translation​

Pehaps, someday JPS will define בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם as meaning all three
"between two evenings" ... "in the afternoon" ... "at twilight"
​

 

[gadar perets]

AT LEAST TWO INTERPRETATIONS - FOR ONE PASUK
Ibn Ezra(evening-80 minutes) or Rashi(twilight-entire afternoon)​

​

"in the afternoon" ... (Pesachim 61a; Rashi). Literally, 'between the evenings.'​

Perhaps, if you could have attended this symposium (4/30/17) one of the Hebrew scholars could've explained how it is that the NJPS, Chabad's CJB, and The Living Torah by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan interpret "between the evenings" and "twilight" to be understood as "the entire afternoon" as opposed to 80 minutes between sunset and darkness (e.g. Ibn Ezra "between two evenings").
​

A special symposium in celebration of the 100th anniversary of The JPS Holy Scriptures, with many of the nation's leading Bible scholars. After a look back at the last century, representatives from all the major rabbinical seminaries will discuss "Trends in Bible Scholarship and Translation" at the morning session. Scholars involved in the JPS Bible Commentary series will offer "Notes for a New Translation" at the afternoon session ... NMAJH EVENT:The Future of American Jewish Bible Translation​

Pehaps, someday JPS will define בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם as meaning all three
"between two evenings" ... "in the afternoon" ... "at twilight"
​

Unacceptable evidence. You have yet to quote Ibn Ezra or Rashi as;

1) saying בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם means "twilight"
2) saying "twilight" occurs before sunset

Perhaps they do say that, but you are not giving their direct words, but interpretations of their words by commentators.

 

[AbbaLove]

In a previous post (#163) you included the Hebrew Roots Bible as an example of a "literal translation" of בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם which HRB interprets as *"between the ending of the 13th day and the beginning of the 14th day". This 60-80 minutes between sunset and darkness is typical of what most Bibles interpret as a "literal" translation of "between two evenings" but not Chabad's CJB interpretation.

Shemot 12:6 (Chabad's CJB)
And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon.
Exodus 12:6 (Dr. Stern's CJB)
You are to keep it until the fourteenth day of the month, and then the entire assembly of the community of Isra’el will slaughter it at dusk.
Exodus 12:6 (Hebraic Roots Bible)
And it shall be for you to keep until the fourteenth day of this month. And all the assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it *between the evenings.
HRB Footnote: The Passover is kept until the beginning of the 14th day and killed *between the evenings of the ending of the 13th and beginning of the 14th.​

Unacceptable evidence. You have yet to quote Ibn Ezra or Rashi as;

1) saying
בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם means "twilight"
2) saying "twilight" occurs before sunset​

Perhaps they do say that, but you are not giving their direct words, but interpretations of their words by commentators.

What i said is that "twilight" in terms of the Hebrew mindset (ibn Ezra, Rashi) would not be interpreted the same as our western mindset of "twilight." Thus to the Hebrew mindset of Moses day "between two evenings" could have been understood as occurring before sunset; understood as the entire afternoon and thus too "twilight".

If only you could've attended the Symposium you would've had an opportunity to listen and learn (direct words; i.e. "twilight" quote), and perhaps even present your own commentary during the Q&A session. You would've received new insight into why the literal translation of "between two evenings" is often interpreted as ... between the first evening(sunset) and the second evening(darkness) 60-80 minutes after sunset. As is "twilight" interpreted as after sunset (western mindset). Need to remember that Webster's dictionary wasn't in existence during the time of Moses. So, if "between two evenings" is better interpreted (Hebrew mindset) as before sunset ... then too is "twilight"

 

[gadar perets]

Need to remember that Webster's dictionary wasn't in existence during the time of Moses. So, if "between two evenings" is better interpreted (Hebrew mindset) as before sunset ... then too is "twilight"

The word " twilight" was not in existence in Moses' day either. "Between the evenings" meant a time before sunset as Exodus 29:39 reveals. I believe false teachers introduced the concept of it referring to the short period of time after sunset. It is quite possible Jews living long after Yeshua's day introduced it in an attempt to disprove the belief that he is the true Passover Lamb. Their new definition causes Yeshua to be killed at a time when the Passover lambs were not being killed thereby making him a false Passover lamb. However, the fact that he died at the exact time the Jews in his day were killing the Passover Lambs proves he fulfilled the true Passover Lamb.

 

[AbbaLove]

I believe false teachers introduced the concept of it referring to the short period of time after sunset.

By false teachers are you implying that Dr. Stern's CJB translation of בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם and the Hebrew Roots Bible (a literal translation) were influenced by false teachers?

Exodus 12:6 (Dr. Stern's CJB)
You are to keep it until the fourteenth day of the month, and then the entire assembly of the community of Isra’el will slaughter it at dusk.
Exodus 12:6 (Hebraic Roots Bible)
And it shall be for you to keep until the fourteenth day of this month. And all the assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it between the evenings.
HRB lit. footnote: The Passover is kept until the beginning of the 14th day and killed between the evenings of the ending of the 13th and beginning of the 14th.​

Whereas, on the other hand Chabad's CJB in the afternoon interpretation of the phrase בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם coincides with Yeshua's crucifixion.

Shemot 12:6 (Chabad's CJB)
And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon (instead of between noon and sunset).​

Do you see a contradiction when you say ... "It is quite possible *Jews living long after Yeshua's day introduced it in an attempt to disprove the belief that He is the true Passover Lamb."

If that is true (false teachers) then why is it that Rabbinic Judaism (Chabad) interprets בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם as "in the afternoon"; while Dr. Stern's CJB, the Hebrew Roots Bible and other Christian Bibles interpret בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם as: "at dusk" "in the evening" "at twilight" and HRB's interpretation "between the evenings of the ending of the 13th and beginning of the 14th". I even came across a RCC (SJ) commentary that says Jesus was on the cross under a "full moon" ... no wonder the RCC doesn't want it's members to read SJ commentaries of Bible. So, who were the *Jews that influenced Christian translators to interpret בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם as a "short period of time after sunset"? Maybe, it was the RCC and not Jews that are the false teachers.

The OJPS reads kill it "at dusk"
The NJPS reads slaughter it "at twilight"​

Wouldn't it be a twist if a 3rd generation JPS adds an Exodus 12:6 footnote that reads, [a]Ancient Israel's mindset (Exodus 12:6) of what is now referred to as 'twilight' actually occurred before sunset in Egypt. Maybe, JPS will *'even' translate בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם as the "golden hours between the two evenings"

*just a play on the word 'evening'

 

[Open Heart]

When it comes to the Talmud and Oral Tradition ... when have the Sages all agreed on the proper interpretation of Torah scripture?

The whole of the Talmud is that it contains the arguments of the Sages for various points of view. And yet one point wins, and the rest lose. This is why you can't just read the Talmud on your own, but MUST read it with a Talmud scholar.

 

[gadar perets]

By false teachers are you implying that Dr. Stern's CJB translation of בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם and the Hebrew Roots Bible (a literal translation) were influenced by false teachers?

Exodus 12:6 (Dr. Stern's CJB)
You are to keep it until the fourteenth day of the month, and then the entire assembly of the community of Isra’el will slaughter it at dusk.
Exodus 12:6 (Hebraic Roots Bible)
And it shall be for you to keep until the fourteenth day of this month. And all the assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it between the evenings.
HRB lit. footnote: The Passover is kept until the beginning of the 14th day and killed between the evenings of the ending of the 13th and beginning of the 14th.​

I do not care for Stern's CJB even without his translation of Exodus 12:6. At least the HRB got the translation correct. To bad their footnote contradicts Exodus 29:39 and Jewish history.​

Do you see a contradiction when you say ... "It is quite possible *Jews living long after Yeshua's day introduced it in an attempt to disprove the belief that He is the true Passover Lamb."

If that is true (false teachers) then why is it that Rabbinic Judaism (Chabad) interprets בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם as "in the afternoon"; while Dr. Stern's CJB, the Hebrew Roots Bible and other Christian Bibles interpret בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם as: "at dusk" "in the evening" "at twilight" and HRB's interpretation "between the evenings of the ending of the 13th and beginning of the 14th".

Because they are basing their interpretation on Jewish history before 70 AD. The Passover lambs and the evening sacrifice were done in mid-afternoon.

I even came across a RCC (SJ) commentary that says Jesus was on the cross under a "full moon" ... no wonder the RCC doesn't want it's members to read SJ commentaries of Bible.

Isn't it true that it was a full moon? Excuse my ignorance, but what does SJ stand for?

So, who were the *Jews that influenced Christian translators to interpret בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם as a "short period of time after sunset"? Maybe, it was the RCC and not Jews that are the false teachers.

I have no idea who they were. It could have been the RCC, but unbelieving Jews would have a good motive.

Wouldn't it be a twist if a 3rd generation JPS adds an Exodus 12:6 footnote that reads, [a]Ancient Israel's mindset (Exodus 12:6) of what is now referred to as 'twilight' actually occurred before sunset in Egypt. Maybe, JPS will *'even' translate בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם as the "golden hours between the two evenings"

*just a play on the word 'evening'

That will never happen.