Parental Priorities

[technofox]

Yes! It always perplexes me when people go on and on about how virginity is unrealistic and apparently all teens have sex. Because that was totally not my experience, and I don't just mean myself. My group of friends from high school - very close-knit group - never had sex. We just didn't. Some of us dated, but no sex. Perhaps that all changed when they went to college (I don't know, we didn't stay that close) but I doubt it. All three of my randomly-assigned roommates in college were celibate. Yep, that conversation always came up eventually. Some kids actually do grow up with perspective, and are able to find joy in things other than base pleasures. Maybe they're not the kids from odd-ball families who obsess over sex with purity balls and other uncomfortable nonsense. But families that actually teach their children to value something other than sex (or the lack thereof)... it's absolutely realistic. Really? My husband and I figured it out the first time we bought one. Seriously. I didn't have to get directions from my parents or anything. I trust my kids will have the same incredible IQ as we did.

I take it you haven't watched teen mom or documentaries on conservative social groups, where kids were taught the abstinence only with no teaching on contraceptives. Believe or not, some of them got knocked up, because they didn't know how to use a condom. I know they are incredibly simple, but not everyone is smart enough to know how to use them.

I don't think virginity is unrealistic. I do think it's unrealistic to think people will know how to properly use contraceptives without proper instruction or even awareness that they even exist. I also think it is unrealistic to expect everyone to remain a virgin until marriage in a society that pushes marriage into ever older ages.

 

[mkgal1]

What I find most interesting about it in retrospect are a couple of things.

First - is it really wasn't said to the church congregation as a whole. It was said to my 6th grade class. They pulled us out of class into church one day specifically for this talk.

Next is the timing of it...where they gave it specifically to kids you know statistically are probably going through/starting puberty right about then.

Lastly - the fact they went out of their way to drive home the point "including masturbation."

So basically - you're giving a custom tailored message to pubescent kids that masturbation is second only to murder in the eyes of God.

I can't help but think that the discord that caused in me was calculated and intentional on their part.

The one thing I wished I knew more about when my daughter was young was how to spot toxic (or dysfunctional) churches and teachings. I was listening to a message the other day and it was mentioned how important it is for us to properly identify our enemies and how, in misguided situations, that often puts the target on the wrong "enemy" (like in the case of Janay Rice protecting her husband and naming the media as her enemy).

I had a close friend in junior high that had a sister caught up in a cult (isolated communal compound---no contact with family---Jim Jones type place)...so, in my mind, that's what a toxic church was---very obvious and set apart. Now I know how untrue that is.....toxic beliefs are insidious (like the whole purity ball deal).

To me......teaching things like *this* is a priority:

Toxic Churches, Leadership, and Organizations - Bart's Barometer

In the essay that's linked in that article....I find this interesting:

The tragedy of the human condition is not simply that we all must die, but
rather that we choose to live by illusions. And it is that choice of
comforting, sometimes exhilarating, even grand illusions, instead of the
more humble, often painful and challenging reality, that renders us
exquisitely vulnerable to toxic leaders.

The overall purpose of this essay is to consider the plight of followers caught
in the thrall of toxic leaders, who first charm, then manipulate, and
ultimately leave their followers worse off than they found them

Isn't that what's happening with the purity balls? The girls are charmed....flattered....manipulated.....and, I believe, worse off than they began (I'd expect it to do damage to the father/daughter relationship as well...unless the daughter continues on in that belief system).

 

[DZoolander]

Agreed.

In fairness to my parents - they had no idea that the church was telling me those things - and I had no idea that I ought to tell them. I didn't tell them when they told me that murder was a sin, that adultery was a sin, etc...so why would this be any different? The church, simply put, was the authority on what was sinful and what wasn't in my eyes. There was no need to second guess/get a second opinion from my parents.

For my own kids - I've decided that I'm not going to be sending them to religious school - because I don't want those "assumptions of authority" being made by them and having what I consider to be harmful messages given without appropriate checks/balances from me. Kind of puts me in a quandry though - because I don't really care for the public schools out here - but there aren't that many secular private schools.

 

[DZoolander]

Yes! It always perplexes me when people go on and on about how virginity is unrealistic and apparently all teens have sex. Because that was totally not my experience, and I don't just mean myself. My group of friends from high school - very close-knit group - never had sex. We just didn't. Some of us dated, but no sex. Perhaps that all changed when they went to college (I don't know, we didn't stay that close) but I doubt it. All three of my randomly-assigned roommates in college were celibate. Yep, that conversation always came up eventually.

I don't think it's so much that I think that virginity is unrealistic or that all teens have sex - it has to do with the fact that I don't know what my kids are going to do. It's unforeseen and it's unpredictable.

That being said - I have a hard time with the stance that some people seem to take where they're appearing to try and coerce or manipulate their kids into a given course of action by denying education/information. Kind of like... "Well, if the kid knows about condoms or other forms of birth control, then they're more likely to act upon that knowledge..." etc etc etc. That whole idea basically rests upon the idea that "I'm sabotaging my child's virginity by telling them how things work. Ignorance is bliss."

...and I don't agree with that for a number of reasons.

Like I said - I don't know what my kids will do. Maybe the set of circumstances will be such that they understand that they should refrain from pre-marital sex (which they interpret as casual sex) - but what if they've convinced themselves that they HAVE found the love of their life - the person they're going to marry/etc...and they act upon it thinking that it's just a matter of time with this person anyhow? After all - this is their "future spouse"? Blah blah.

There are tons of scenarios that can come up where even with the best of intentions - things go differently than planned (or what you expected). To that end - I want my kids to understand what they're doing.

To your point about condoms not being rocket science...I agree. They're pretty straightforward...lol There are other things that come into play though that aren't quite as self explanatory - however...

Like when I was growing up - I always heard around the schoolyard that there was this stuff called "lube" - and everyone talked about "lube" as being vasaline. If you'd asked me what "lube" was until I was probably in college - I'd have told you vasaline.

Now - say I'd actually been sexually active at that point - had tried to be responsible and get myself some normal latex condoms - and then pulled out the vasaline. Ummmm - not such a bright idea.

That kind of stuff IMHO *isn't* intuitive and common sense - at least for most kids.

 

[mkgal1]

In fairness to my parents - they had no idea that the church was telling me those things - and I had no idea that I ought to tell them. I didn't tell them when they told me that murder was a sin, that adultery was a sin, etc...so why would this be any different? The church, simply put, was the authority on what was sinful and what wasn't in my eyes. There was no need to second guess/get a second opinion from my parents.

For my own kids - I've decided that I'm not going to be sending them to religious school - because I don't want those "assumptions of authority" being made by them and having what I consider to be harmful messages given without appropriate checks/balances from me. Kind of puts me in a quandry though - because I don't really care for the public schools out here - but there aren't that many secular private schools.

Yes....that seems back-handed and calculated for them to approach the kids w/o the parent's knowledge of what was being said.

I'm glad that our daughter's (Christian) school had a process that completely aligned with my beliefs about allowing the children to "appeal to authority". They couldn't simply say, "I don't agree....I think that's wrong/unfair/mean"....whatever---they had to have more of a reason to support their appeal. This began in kindergarten.....and they sort of coached them how to properly follow the process. That may have been one of the most valuable lessons she learned (and we took her out after the third grade....so she wasn't even there that long).

 

[DZoolander]

lol - there was a lot of kookery in church now that I think about it.

Like, the whole nonsense about backwards masking on records promoting satanism. I remember sitting in music class, as our teacher loomed over an old style turntable with a copy of Stairway to Heaven on it...working the thing backwards and trying to get us to hear "My Sweet Satan".

"Didn't you hear it that time? Clear as a bell! There it is!"

When in reality - it sounded more like Charlie Brown's teacher... "Wah Wah, Wahhhh Wah"

 

[Hetta]

lol - there was a lot of kookery in church now that I think about it.

Like, the whole nonsense about backwards masking on records promoting satanism. I remember sitting in music class, as our teacher loomed over an old style turntable with a copy of Stairway to Heaven on it...working the thing backwards and trying to get us to hear "My Sweet Satan".

"Didn't you hear it that time? Clear as a bell! There it is!"

When in reality - it sounded more like Charlie Brown's teacher... "Wah Wah, Wahhhh Wah"

OMW. Really? That is craziness.

 

[DZoolander]

Were you here in the 70's, Hetta? lol Yeah - there was a HUGE thing in the evangelical circles about how pop culture (mainly rock music) was acting at the behest of satan - and popular bands were brainwashing children into becoming satanists/forgetting about God by putting hidden messages into music.

"Backwards Masking" was what they focused on - saying that while indecipherable by the conscious mind - the vulnerable subconscious would hear it and obey.

lol

 

[Hetta]

I don't think it's so much that I think that virginity is unrealistic or that all teens have sex - it has to do with the fact that I don't know what my kids are going to do. It's unforeseen and it's unpredictable.

That being said - I have a hard time with the stance that some people seem to take where they're appearing to try and coerce or manipulate their kids into a given course of action by denying education/information. Kind of like... "Well, if the kid knows about condoms or other forms of birth control, then they're more likely to act upon that knowledge..." etc etc etc. That whole idea basically rests upon the idea that "I'm sabotaging my child's virginity by telling them how things work. Ignorance is bliss."

There is research that indicates that children who are educated about contraceptives are not more inclined to have sex than those who are not educated about sex.

If I could find it, I'd link it. But it's in one of my text books.

Like I said - I don't know what my kids will do. Maybe the set of circumstances will be such that they understand that they should refrain from pre-marital sex (which they interpret as casual sex) - but what if they've convinced themselves that they HAVE found the love of their life - the person they're going to marry/etc...and they act upon it thinking that it's just a matter of time with this person anyhow? After all - this is their "future spouse"? Blah blah.

There are tons of scenarios that can come up where even with the best of intentions - things go differently than planned (or what you expected). To that end - I want my kids to understand what they're doing.

To your point about condoms not being rocket science...I agree. They're pretty straightforward...lol There are other things that come into play though that aren't quite as self explanatory - however...

Like when I was growing up - I always heard around the schoolyard that there was this stuff called "lube" - and everyone talked about "lube" as being vasaline. If you'd asked me what "lube" was until I was probably in college - I'd have told you vasaline.

Now - say I'd actually been sexually active at that point - had tried to be responsible and get myself some normal latex condoms - and then pulled out the vasaline. Ummmm - not such a bright idea.

That kind of stuff IMHO *isn't* intuitive and common sense - at least for most kids.

LOL about latex and vaseline. I was just reading that last night because I was researching something about lubricants. No, you can't combine the two. That is definitely worth your kids knowing!

I agree that you don't know how your kids will approach dating/sex/marriage. I would never have thought that two of my kids would simply chose the second person they dated - first person that they seriously dated - to fall in love with/want to marry. I think it's great. My youngest kid in HS met a girl his first day as a freshman and I'm thinking, okay, is he going to follow in their footsteps? LOL. If so, this may be my future DIL.

 

[mkgal1]

OMW. Really? That is craziness.

Had you never heard that? Maybe it's a US thing....but it was a very widespread belief that really caught on.

It's an interesting way to spread it, too..to first suggest what's being said--with something that's garbled sounding---you'll probably be able to hear just about whatever someone suggests is there or hear it like it is....the sound of Charlie Brown's teacher.

 

[mkgal1]

evangelical circles saying popular bands were brainwashing children

Isn't that ironic?

 

[DZoolander]

Then there was the other stuff - like how bands names were acronyms for their true intentions...

Like the band RUSH was supposedly an acronym for "Ruled Under Satan's Hand" - AC/DC - "Anti-Christ/Devil's Children" - etc...

Yep... That was the wonderful world of evangelicalism back in the 70's. lol

 

[Hetta]

Oh good gravy. :/

 

[Hetta]

Had you never heard that? Maybe it's a US thing....but it was a very widespread belief that really caught on.

It's an interesting way to spread it, too..to first suggest what's being said--with something that's garbled sounding---you'll probably be able to hear just about whatever someone suggests is there or hear it like it is....the sound of Charlie Brown's teacher.

I had heard of the records being played backward having some message to the devil, but always thought it ridiculous. I mean, come on. But no school teacher ever did anything like that.

 

[mkgal1]

For my own kids - I've decided that I'm not going to be sending them to religious school - because I don't want those "assumptions of authority" being made by them and having what I consider to be harmful messages given without appropriate checks/balances from me. Kind of puts me in a quandry though - because I don't really care for the public schools out here - but there aren't that many secular private schools.

In our area....public charters are becoming more and more popular (and that may be a good option for your family).

 

[mkgal1]

I had heard of the records being played backward having some message to the devil, but always thought it ridiculous. I mean, come on. But no school teacher ever did anything like that.

Yes....it's one thing when it's coming from other children on the playground--but a whole other thing when it's coming from an "authority" figure

 

[DZoolander]

Oh it was a big thing. I remember being in the third grade - and our music teacher doing that. I also remember there being a special on the local UHF religious channel with an hour devoted to the subject - and it was an assigned mandatory watching for our class.

 

[mkgal1]

It seems so obvious, when you look back on certain examples (and it's easy to wonder...."how did they fall for that stuff?").....but, from what I've read, it's not a matter of intelligence that causes some people to believe things and others to immediately reject things.

I'm still going through and reading that essay by Dr. Lipman-Blumen, but something she wrote that I wish I'd realized earlier is that:

Only when we accept that life is uncertain, that its meaning may never
become totally clear, that anything can happen, but that we must go forward
nonetheless, can we feel the true exhilaration of living.

That is the fundamental noble enterprise in which each and every one of us must knowingly engage if we are to come face-to-face with our own capacity for leadership and free ourselves from toxic leaders, who manipulate our fears. ~http://www.connectiveleadership.com/articles/when_grand_illusions_masquerade_as_noble_visions.pdf

She was writing prior to that about how so many of us want leaders that project and aura of certainty, and how we must somehow maintain the illusion that life is both meaningful and manageable – if not under our own command, then under someone else’s, preferably someone who is stronger and smarter than we are. So, we seek meaning and a controlled world from leaders, whom we agree to obey in exchange for their
dangerously reassuring gifts of security, certainty, and order.

She wrote:

We want to believe that
• we shall be safe from disaster, disorder, and death;
• we shall live forever, either physically here or in another world, or
symbolically in the memory of others;
• we are important, even heroic, beings in a meaningful world;
• we belong to the “Chosen,” an elite community, who congregate at
the center of action, where all critical decisions and events take place;
• we are engaged daily in a noble enterprise, articulated in a noble
vision, designed to make the world a better place.

 

[DZoolander]

When I was in HS - my dad gave me a book on theology and asked me to read a short story within it called "The Grand Inquisitor" (by Dostoyevsky). In the story (set back in the days of the Spanish Inquisition) - Jesus comes back and is privately put on trial (and sentenced to death) by the local Catholic magistrate for having the temerity to come back to Earth.

That story really molded a lot of how I see religion/the church/etc...and deals a lot with what you're talking about there.

 

[mkgal1]

It sounds as if your dad was wise.

I never read any of Dostoyevsky's works, but based on his quotes, he had a great outlook on life.

This quote really does deal with much of what that essay was about, and how we are baited in by toxic leaders through our desire to have a certain and comfortable life:

“Pain and suffering are always inevitable for a large intelligence and a deep heart. The really great men must, I think, have great sadness on earth.”
― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment