Parental Priorities

[Inkachu]

Abstinence teaching DOES work. Maybe not in all cases, but to say NOBODY is a virgin when they get married is just plain false. We have a lot of them right here on CF. What's important is teaching your child that abstinence till marriage is the best way, is God's way, and to teach them that sex is an incredible, beautiful blessing, not something dirty or scary or something to hide from. I think that's where a lot of abstinence teachings go wrong, they treat sex like something evil or horrible that then magically becomes OK after your wedding vows They deny a child's sexuality and don't address sexual thoughts, changing bodies, hormones, self-discovery, etc. You can teach a child that their sexuality is normal, healthy, and God-given, but that God and parents expect them to handle it with the respect and honor it deserves. Kids are curious little boundary-pushers by nature. If you tell them "You should wait to have sex till you're married, but in case you choose not to, here's a condom" do you REALLY think they're going to wait? Studies have shown that parents who express a clear expectation of abstinence till marriage have a higher rate of children who wait to have sex. Parents' Influence on Adolescents' Sexual Behavior

Sometimes I think we underestimate the influence we have on our kids, even the older ones. If you have a good, close, trusting relationship with your children, your opinions matter to them. A lot.

There will never be a "in case you decide to have sex before you're married" clause in my home with my son. It's not going to happen. Is that a guarantee that he won't make the choice to sin? Of course not. But we don't make escape clauses for our kids to murder or steal, and the idea of doing it for fornication is just outrageous to me. My son knows exactly what sex is. He's extremely comfortable in his own body. He knows that my husband and I didn't have sex till after our wedding. He knows that God and mom and dad expect him to do the same. I'm not going to do him the disservice of giving him an "out" to disobey us and God. Just not gonna happen.

 

[technofox]

Abstinence teaching DOES work. Maybe not in all cases, but to say NOBODY is a virgin when they get married is just plain false. We have a lot of them right here on CF. What's important is teaching your child that abstinence till marriage is the best way, is God's way, and to teach them that sex is an incredible, beautiful blessing, not something dirty or scary or something to hide from. I think that's where a lot of abstinence teachings go wrong, they treat sex like something evil or horrible that then magically becomes OK after your wedding vows They deny a child's sexuality and don't address sexual thoughts, changing bodies, hormones, self-discovery, etc. You can teach a child that their sexuality is normal, healthy, and God-given, but that God and parents expect them to handle it with the respect and honor it deserves. Kids are curious little boundary-pushers by nature. If you tell them "You should wait to have sex till you're married, but in case you choose not to, here's a condom" do you REALLY think they're going to wait? Studies have shown that parents who express a clear expectation of abstinence till marriage have a higher rate of children who wait to have sex. Parents' Influence on Adolescents' Sexual Behavior Sometimes I think we underestimate the influence we have on our kids, even the older ones. If you have a good, close, trusting relationship with your children, your opinions matter to them. A lot. There will never be a "in case you decide to have sex before you're married" clause in my home with my son. It's not going to happen. Is that a guarantee that he won't make the choice to sin? Of course not. But we don't make escape clauses for our kids to murder or steal, and the idea of doing it for fornication is just outrageous to me. My son knows exactly what sex is. He's extremely comfortable in his own body. He knows that my husband and I didn't have sex till after our wedding. He knows that God and mom and dad expect him to do the same. I'm not going to do him the disservice of giving him an "out" to disobey us and God. Just not gonna happen.

Abstinence does work, if taught that it is the best option, but not the only option. I look at the data between abstinence only programs, which have high failure rates, versus that of programs with contraceptions with an emphasis on abstinence, which have greater success rates on preventing teen pregnancy. Unfortunately the data doesn't lie. Only the Christians that support abstinence only programs do about it's success rate.

I am sorry, but I don't see contraceptions as an escape clause. I was taught sex ed and lived in a very secular family and I waited until I was in college before I had my first lay and I made sure I wrapped it before I tapped it. I eventually became A believer in Christ, waited until I was married and ended up in a sexless and abusive marriage. Premarital sex, in my opinion, is no bigger a sin than someone saying "up yours" in anger to someone else. My concern is having kids out of wedlock and not being able to support them. That is why I and EZ follow a similar pattern. We want our kids to be independent thinkers and still know what God expects of them, but also understand that we are realistic of times.

I hope your son can make it, but once he leaves your nest, that is when the real test begins. If it gets a girl knocked up, because he didn't know how to use a condom, how would you feel as a parent?

I was a boys scout and I like one of the things it taught me - "always be prepared".

 

[DZoolander]

What I don't get is how we've leaped from discussion about having informed adult children that eventually make informed adult decisions (and how that's a positive) - to assumptions that we intend to be handing out condoms like party favors.

I know this is kind of sidetracking - but it kinda reminds me of my mom...lol

When I was 19-20, I was dating this girl (who later became my wife/ex-wife). We'd been going out for about a year...I was in college...I was living at home while I was going to school...etc...etc...etc...

Well, my mom was an avid coupon clipper. Always saved a buck, ya know? Well - one day I came home from school to find a $1 off coupon for Lifestyles condoms sitting on my desk. I was absolutely mortified.

First of all - I wasn't going to take that thing and confirm to my mom whether or not I was having sex with my g/f (we were.) Next - buying condoms was always something that I was somewhat embarrassed about. I was the kind of guy that would palm the box in my hand (and put a box of tic-tacks on the belt as a distraction) up until I got to the cashier and then swipe it myself (because I didn't want to have anyone behind me or in front of me in line know what I was buying). I had cash in hand - and was ready to get out as quickly as possible.

With that in mind - the last thing I was going to do was prolong the transaction with a darn coupon. $1 just wasn't significant enough to me.

So that coupon sat there...and sat there...untouched for like a month...and undiscussed.

I guess my mom must have been watching it - and started to wonder why I wasn't taking advantage of that great savings...so she must have figured "Well, I don't see him studying all that much. Maybe he just hasn't noticed it there" - and the thing started migrating around my room to places where I guess she figured I actually would be looking. It spent about a week in front of the stereo - a week in front of the TV -a few days here - a few days there...on my hamper...etc.

until finally one day it just disappeared.

Never said a word to my mom about it, nor she to me. lol

 

[Hetta]

Oh my word. That is so funny! Yeah, I haven't/wouldn't do that with the boys in my family. It's kind of intrusive.

Would you have preferred if she had out and just asked you if you were 'being careful'?

 

[DZoolander]

That would've gone a lot further...and would've stood decent odds of me actually answering it...lol

My dad was no more effective in communicating about sex with me. I remember the ONLY time he ever broached the subject with me was when I was 16-17 and dating some girl.

My dad was really kind of a bashful guy - so he didn't like talking about things like this. But I guess one day he felt so compelled - and pulled me into his room to ask about the girl I was dating.

"Are you and she doing anything...inappropriate?"

At 16-17, I couldn't let the opportunity pass (considering how bashful my dad was.)

"Well, I guess it all depends on what you consider to be inappropriate."

He replies back with...."What do you mean?"

To which I started listing out all sorts of fetishes, deviant practices, various types of sodomy (most of which looking back I got wrong because I didn't fully know what they meant...lol) - etc. "Is that appropriate? How about that? Is that inappropriate?"

My dad just got all flustered and red faced - and ordered me out of his room. "I can't talk to you." hahaha

 

[Niffer]

Blind(ish) post, I didn't read 'em all.

But both my husband and I were virgins, we married at 21 and 24..it's NOT impossible, it's just self-control.
Secondly, while I always knew I wanted to be a SAHM, my parents told me point blank, I needed secondary education and career.
I needed a way to support myself, and marriage wasn't exactly a guarantee.
I was encouraged to go to college, to get trained in a well-paying field and then see what happened when it came to marriage/children.

If my little girl comes to me and says that she wants to be a wife/mum, I'll tell her its an excellent occupation, but not a guarantee.
So go to college, graduate in something that you can use to support yourself, THEN get married.
As for sexual purity, I'll encourage her to wait for marriage, Remi and I will tell her how it's difficult and hard at times, but you can bet your you-know-what she'll know about condoms, STD's, safe-sex and how to properly protect herself.

I can't control my kids, but I can educate them...

~ Niff

 

[DZoolander]

Agreed, Niffer.

What's bizarre to me, and what set this post in motion, was the idea which basically said...

"But...but...that edumcation thingie might take a long time, and oh noes, there might be premarital sex then"

 

[sdmsanjose]

EZ
If your main point is that the church puts sexual purity above all other sins then I can see your point. Those Christian actions that you mentioned are just as important as sexual purity. However, sexual purity is an act that demonstrates one’s desire to follow God’s teachings and in that context is just as important as all of those that you mentioned.

You seem to put sexual purity as less important than the ones that you mentioned. The ones that you mentioned and sexual purity do not have to be in contrast or compared to each other but they are equally important in that they are goals to be pursued to follow God’s teachings.

Perhaps some churches do put sexual purity above all other sins, mine does not, but regardless the Bible and God’s teaching have more authority than those churches.

EZ you do not have to diminish sexual purity in comparison to other Godly teachings because you are upset with some churches

 

[DZoolander]

...and to be honest - I have a hard time with that for a variety of reasons. I'll admit - I'm jaded in this respect.

In my mind - until people can tell you with equal guilt/passion/etc about how they're rapt with guilt over getting angry with another driver back in 1987 the same way they seem to obsess about how they might have had sex with their then-single-but-future-husband/wife once or twice years ago - I see a disparity and a disparity that I think is fundamentally unhealthy.

My feelings about it go back to being a kid - and being told about how "sexual sin was second only to murder in the eyes of God" - and the havoc that reeked on my life through puberty and adolescence. As I said before - I came to the decision that if all sin was equal - I would treat all sin equally. If I can't (nor do I see other people) mustering up a bunch of angst over other equally egregious sins (anger/etc) - I'm not going to kick myself around for one over another. Rather - I'm going to work for a point of view that treats all sin equally. Just as they're choosing what to focus on - I will too. Except, I'm honest about the fact I'm doing it for the sake of sanity and clarity of thought.

In how the Church treats sex - I think it's crazy-making stuff - and it's my goal to shield my kids from it. Ought they to cherish themselves? Absolutely. Ought they to take their relationships with others seriously? Absolutely. Does He expect that of them? Absolutely. But any train of thought that makes Him/Her think that somehow sexual issues (like if my son masturbates) is somehow sending him down the slippery slope of damnation I will fervently fight. Anyone that tries to teach my daughter that her value and/or salvation is wrapped up in the state of her hymen will equally face my displeasure.

There's far more to being pious than whether or not there's blood on the sheets the morning after you're married - and that's how I intend to train my kids. It's no less important - but it darn sure isn't any more important than anything else.

At least that's how I see it.

 

[mkgal1]

In watching that video of the family that created this whole purity ball culture--what comes to mind when the mother/wife (I believe) said something along the lines of, "to know that you are so valued and loved that your father would plan for months--maybe a year--to go to an event like this, is an expression of extraordinary worth...."---is the question as to whether the girl, herself, that's valued---or just her "purity" (because it seems like the latter, to me).

That this is typically an annual event (that's attended often by the same girls each year)...seems to have aspects of mind control to me. It's really just another variation of, "you are your sexuality" and everything else about her character and interests seems to fall by the wayside.

Why can't this just be a dinner/dance to celebrate just the girls themselves? That would seem a lot better than having the main focus be these girl's (some very young)sexuality.

 

[mkgal1]

I can't control my kids, but I can educate them...

~ Niff

Educate and prepare.....very true.

 

[sdmsanjose]

BY EZ

I'll admit - I'm jaded in this respect.


But any train of thought that makes Him/Her think that somehow sexual issues (like if my son masturbates) is somehow sending him down the slippery slope of damnation I will fervently fight. Anyone that tries to teach my daughter that her value and/or salvation is wrapped up in the state of her hymen will equally face my displeasure.

EZ
I appreciate your honesty!

Now that you have explained more I think I remember you in the past mentioning your situation with your early teachings on sex. If your church taught you that your value and/or salvation is wrapped up in a hymen or masturbation then you were taught by one very twisted and whacky church. Kind of sounds like that twisted whacked church, Westbrook Baptist Church that is driven to judge and promote hate and condemnation.

I think that the modern world, and especially the USA, has given us such an advantage. That advantage is that we all can read and write and have religious freedom. I got stung by the church years ago and in the long run it helped me. It helped in that I started depending on the Bible, my own prayers, and observation of life to get my views about what is important in life.

BY EZ
There's far more to being pious than whether or not there's blood on the sheets the morning after you're married - and that's how I intend to train my kids. It's no less important - but it darn sure isn't any more important than anything else.

I can agree with you 100% on your post above! I agree with a lot of what you have written, however, your previous posts seemed to indicated that sexual purity is less important than some of the other teaching of God.

I have paid for years for my granddaughter and grandsons to go to Christian school. You can bet your paycheck that I will not tolerate any of those teachings that you mentioned that they taught you. Conversely, our church and school advocate abstinence and at the same time teach about one of the greatest spiritual qualities that Christ brought to the world; GRACE, LOVE, and FORGIVENESS! I will continue to promote sexual purity before marriage but if they fail I will treat them the same way that Christ as treated me and that is with Grace, love, and forgiveness for which I am so thankful. In addition, the Grace, Forgiveness, and love have made it possible for me to recover from disobeying God in my youth. If any church or anyone wants to get involved with my spiritual life and leaves out grace, forgiveness, and the love of God then they will be dead to me.


EZ, all those good points that you mentioned are very important but promoting sexual purity is another of God’s teachings and that makes it just as important. I know that you want the best for your daughter and I want the best for my children and grandchildren.

I am going to continue to promote abstinence and obedience to God based on the Bible, prayers, and my life experiences. If the church reinforces my conclusions then the church will be an important tool in my spiritual life. If my church gets like the church that taught you in your early years I will turn into Forest Gump and I will

RUN FOREST RUN!!!!!!!!!!

 

[DZoolander]

Well, long story short, at around the time I was going through puberty our pastor pulled us into church one day to explain to us that there was a hierarchy to sin - and sexual sin (including masturbation) was second only to murder in the eyes of God.

That teaching, being told to me at that juncture in my life (once again, going through puberty and early adolescence) led to true havoc in my life for 3-4 years. It's no secret - I was an early adolescent dude with newfound hormones - and I wanted to touch.

The next 3-4 years of my life were spent in constant turmoil - trying not to touch - inevitably "failing" - feeling as if I had let God down - followed by renewed vows never to do it again - only to fail again and feel that my immortal soul was in jeopardy of damnation (compounded by making promises that I failed on) - etc... It was a nasty cycle - 30 years later I still remember it with disdain. For a long time I called that period of my life "the masturbation wars"...of all the stupid things...lol But it's no exaggeration to say that period was the most miserable in my life.

Finally - at around 16 - I just said "to heck with this". A few things set into motion that caused me to come to the conclusion that it was a crazy-making exercise in futility that I wanted no part of any more. I decided to go the opposite direction - and grant myself perfect sexual freedom..

Now - I guess I have to qualify that... That doesn't mean that I granted myself license to do anything. Clearly there are things that are abhorrent - or things I wouldn't have been interested in. What I mean is - I decided to let my conscience be my guide. If it was something I felt comfortable doing - regardless of what anyone else said - I would give myself no grief over it. If I wanted to touch, I'd touch. If I wanted to have sex with a girlfriend - I'd have sex with the g/f and feel no guilt about it....etc....etc.

And to that end - what happened?

The first girl that I ever had sex with I had a 8-9 year relationship with and ultimately married. Had it not been for some freaky insane behavior on her part - I doubt that would have changed...and I masturbated a bunch as a teenager. That's about it.

My wife says that she thinks that I have actually the healthiest view of sex (at least within the realm of how I handle it) of any guy she's ever come across. I don't have any weird perversions, I don't have regret, I don't have any bizarre predilections, I don't question how things might have been, etc.

In totality - I've had few partners (more than the abstinence only crowd would like, assuredly, but not many) - not one was ever a one night stand/etc. I don't worry about it the way many other Christians appear to - and in my mind - that's a good thing (and I think - ultimately healthy).

The only baggage I carry is a great degree of resentment for how the issue was handled with me in my adolescence by the church I attended - and in that light - things like purity balls/how people treat sexual issues as if they're the litmus test of faith/etc - really rubs me the wrong way...and with that in mind I will be very very guarded over my kids to not experience the same thing.

 

[DZoolander]

Then there's stuff like this article.

http://thoughtcatalog.com/samantha-p...-wish-i-hadnt/

where some poor girl talks about her experience with the whole "purity" culture. Now - once again - I'm not saying that "purity" is unimportant - or doesn't have it's place - etc etc. But what I am saying is that the seeming focus upon it in lieu of everything else (which is what I see) is crazy making.

I think about this poor girl - I think about my own experience - and I don't think it's unique.

So - if it sounds like I'm discounting the issue - perhaps I am - but it's only because I'm unsure how to get across the idea that I fervently DO believe - which is that it should NOT be the focal point or litmus test of faith.

 

[sdmsanjose]

WOW!!!
What ignorance in that church!

I remember years ago reading about James Dobson being attacked by some religious Christian community for his stance on masturbation. As you know James Dobson is a very conservative author of Christian books. Some see Dobson as an extreme right Christian and they judge him as a radical.

The reason that Dobson got attacked is because he said that masturbation is not even a sin in some cases. Some points that he made were that the Bible is almost completely silent of this issue. Furthermore, Dobson stated that it does not make since to say that masturbation is always a sin when God provided mankind with the nature that has nocturnal emissions during dreams. Since Dobson stated that dreams were involuntary how could a person be held accountable for the God given ability to have involuntary dreams that involved sex and climax?

I was very surprised to read that by Dobson because Dobson is very conservative in his evangelical Christian views. I agree with Dobson 100%.

To state that masturbation is the second worst sin tells me that someone has no wisdom and is ignorant to boot!

 

[DZoolander]

Well, for the sake of accuracy, they were saying "Sexual sin" as a whole - things like fornication, adultery, homosexuality, etc. At least that's how I interpreted the message.

I do remember, very clearly, the pastor making an effort to include the part about "including masturbation".

 

[sdmsanjose]

BY EZ
Well, for the sake of accuracy, they were saying "Sexual sin" as a whole - things like fornication, adultery, homosexuality, etc. At least that's how I interpreted the message.

As you know there is such a thing as sexual sin but where in he Bible does it rate sexual sin as the second worst sin? No where in the Bible does it say sexual sin is the second worst. That is those men trying to impose their views onto a church congregation.

That brings out my point about having the Bible and prayer as your top priority to believe such spiritual positions. The Bible with prayer trumps any man or church!



Church and church people can be a good supplement to the Bible but never the ultimate source of spiritual truth. It seems in your case with your early church experience with these men and that church were not a good supplement to the Bible but a determent

 

[DZoolander]

What I find most interesting about it in retrospect are a couple of things.

First - is it really wasn't said to the church congregation as a whole. It was said to my 6th grade class. They pulled us out of class into church one day specifically for this talk.

Next is the timing of it...where they gave it specifically to kids you know statistically are probably going through/starting puberty right about then.

Lastly - the fact they went out of their way to drive home the point "including masturbation."

So basically - you're giving a custom tailored message to pubescent kids that masturbation is second only to murder in the eyes of God.

I can't help but think that the discord that caused in me was calculated and intentional on their part.

 

[akmom]

Abstinence teaching DOES work. Maybe not in all cases, but to say NOBODY is a virgin when they get married is just plain false.

Yes! It always perplexes me when people go on and on about how virginity is unrealistic and apparently all teens have sex. Because that was totally not my experience, and I don't just mean myself. My group of friends from high school - very close-knit group - never had sex. We just didn't. Some of us dated, but no sex. Perhaps that all changed when they went to college (I don't know, we didn't stay that close) but I doubt it. All three of my randomly-assigned roommates in college were celibate. Yep, that conversation always came up eventually.

Some kids actually do grow up with perspective, and are able to find joy in things other than base pleasures. Maybe they're not the kids from odd-ball families who obsess over sex with purity balls and other uncomfortable nonsense. But families that actually teach their children to value something other than sex (or the lack thereof)... it's absolutely realistic.

If it gets a girl knocked up, because he didn't know how to use a condom, how would you feel as a parent?

Really? My husband and I figured it out the first time we bought one. Seriously. I didn't have to get directions from my parents or anything. I trust my kids will have the same incredible IQ as we did.

 

[akmom]

Well, my mom was an avid coupon clipper. Always saved a buck, ya know? Well - one day I came home from school to find a $1 off coupon for Lifestyles condoms sitting on my desk. I was absolutely mortified.

...

So that coupon sat there...and sat there...untouched for like a month...and undiscussed.

I guess my mom must have been watching it - and started to wonder why I wasn't taking advantage of that great savings...so she must have figured "Well, I don't see him studying all that much. Maybe he just hasn't noticed it there" - and the thing started migrating around my room to places where I guess she figured I actually would be looking. It spent about a week in front of the stereo - a week in front of the TV -a few days here - a few days there...on my hamper...etc.

until finally one day it just disappeared.

Oh my goodness, your mom was hilarious!! What a hoot. That is a great story.