Parental Priorities

[DZoolander]

On that other thread about spousal abuse (and on another one about the appropriate age for getting married/having kids/etc) - I mentioned that my intention is to teach my daughter to focus on school, then career, then marriage and then children.

To me - that makes sense - because as I said in those other threads - in my mind that serves as an insurance policy that she can at least be self sustaining if need be (namely, if her husband turns out to be a Ray Rice or some other type of abusive/cheating jerk).

I got a response back that kinda surprised me (albeit also in fairness it kinda didn't) - with someone asking me...

"Premarital sex? Or do you expect 10 years of celibacy after her period starts?" blah blah.

I mean - I'm not even quite sure what to do with that one. The topic of conversation was abuse - and I'm talking about what (in my opinion) is one of the best ways to assure that my daughter (or any woman) has options in the event that she's faced with such a predicament. Options in life are an important thing, ya know?

...and in that context...the first thing that comes up in someone's mind is premarital sex? Huh?

So, let me get this straight.

Let's say my daughter gets horny at 18 years old, and in order to "flee immorality" ignorantly marries the object of her desire. She gets pregnant right away, and therefore can't find time to finish any sort of meaningful school. Life progresses, she ends up with 2-3 kids, and 10-15 years later it comes out that the guy is an abusive/cheating jerk.

She's uneducated, in her 30's, and capable of nothing more than a McJob with 2-3 kids in tow.

So, as her father, I'm supposed to look at her options, the predicament she's in, the poor options she has, and say "Well, at least you didn't have permarital sex"?

?????

Wow.

 

[Verve]

One of the fruits of the spirit is self control.
Fleeing immorality can take many forms.
You could marry the object of your desire or you could take a step back and make a logical decision about whom to marry.

 

[DZoolander]

True - albeit doesn't really detract from the idea that your focus/first concern being pre-marital sex in the context of "school -> career -> marriage -> children" is just bizarre.

 

[DZoolander]

Ya know, gotta admit, if my children were to come to me and tell me they were planning on taking some sort of purity pledge - I wouldn't be jumping for joy over it. In fact - I'd kinda wonder where I'd gone wrong as a parent - where they decided to make THAT such a focus.

Not that purity isn't a worthwhile goal - but I'd hope they'd be able to put it in context with other things in life. Their time would be far better spent doing something worthwhile - like volunteering to work in a soup kitchen - working as a candy-striper in a hospital - volunteering to work in an old age home...etc. Ya know - actually doing good work.

...and maybe if you're going to go down the road of making pledges - how about a pledge like "I pledge to be a good/decent human being - and not be a jerk in life." That would be a far more meaningful pledge...lol

 

[ValleyGal]

Ezoo, one of the most painful things I've ever heard my father say is that he regretted bringing me up "Christian." I was surprised by that and asked why. His response was that I took it too serious.

I took it too serious? Is it taking it too seriously to desire to walk by the Spirit? To desire the Spirit to transform my heart and mind to the likeness of the Saviour who died in my stead? Is it taking it too serious to want to conform my behaviour to God's expectations? I only wish I had the wherewithall when I was young to avoid premarital sex, the partying, the drinking that made me so vulnerable to any man who showed me any interest. Why? Because my behaviour broke my God's heart. And it breaks my heart to know that I broke God's heart.

If your daughter chooses to follow the Lord's commands and his will for all of us by abstaining till marriage, then you did something right as a father... and I encourage you to be the best example of Christ to her that you can be, so that she knows God is a God of love and mercy and forgiveness. If her desire is to serve the Lord, then be proud of that and encourage her to put her heart and soul into it - and her body. The Bible tells us that our bodies are living temples for the Spirit. Should she subject God's temple to sin? Teach her purity.... and along with purity, teach her sensibility in how to choose a mate with her head rather than her hormones.

And for the pattern you've established for her, many couples grow much stronger together when they struggle financially at the start of the marriage. In fact, when two people grow to love each other in spite of both of them being broke, you can guarantee that they are not in it for the money. If she is established in a good career, then meets some guy and marries him, he could be some loser marrying her just because she has money. So be careful what you wish for.... when couples work through those tough times when they are just getting started in life, it can make for a solid marriage.

 

[sdmsanjose]

Ya know, gotta admit, if my children were to come to me and tell me they were planning on taking some sort of purity pledge - I wouldn't be jumping for joy over it. In fact - I'd kinda wonder where I'd gone wrong as a parent - where they decided to make THAT such a focus.

Not that purity isn't a worthwhile goal - but I'd hope they'd be able to put it in context with other things in life. Their time would be far better spent doing something worthwhile - like volunteering to work in a soup kitchen - working as a candy-striper in a hospital - volunteering to work in an old age home...etc. Ya know - actually doing good work.

...and maybe if you're going to go down the road of making pledges - how about a pledge like "I pledge to be a good/decent human being - and not be a jerk in life." That would be a far more meaningful pledge...lol



EZ, you have posted some encouraging posts in that you have some very good goals for your daughter.

However, you seem to see God’s goal of sexual purity until marriage as not as high on your list for your daughter as those other good ones you stated. You have named several priorities that are ahead of sexual purity. If that is your position then no one can change you and your daughter is your daughter so you can raise her any way you want even though I agree with ValleyGal.

I fully realize that many failed at sexual purity before marriage, including myself, but it is God’s teachings. ValleyGal is right when she said that our God is a God of love and mercy and forgiveness and I have been forgiven but I wished that I would have had more self control and followed God’s way.

I do not think that God gives us His teachings so that He can be a kill joy and add some more rules to His plan for us. God gives us his teachings so that we can show that we trust in Him and obey Him. In addition his ways are good for us. Do you not think that there is a good possibility that the husband/wife will be affected by his/her bride/groom having had sex with another man/woman before marriage? Do you think that pre-marital sex with another man or woman has no possibility to cause real problems in a marriage?
God’s ways are for our own good.

EZ, I had the same focus as you did with my daughter
College -> career -> marriage -> kids

However, I think that trying to teach your children to trust God and follow His teachings is just as important. In addition, it is just as manful as a pledge to not be a jerk in life as a pledge to obey God.

Actually, for me it is more important that my children trust God and strive to follow his teachings than volunteering to work in a soup kitchen.

EZ, I know you want the best for your daughter.

 

[DZoolander]

The thing is - I don't completely disagree with either of you. However, where I come into issues on this subject is in what I believe to be the extraordinary (and IMHO improper) focus sexual purity has become within the church.

In my eyes - sexual purity is one issue amongst many - none of which have any more weight or significance than the other (all sin is equal). We are to be loving to our neighbors, treat our enemies as our brothers, honor our parents, not act with anger or malice, be caring for the sick, be generous to the poor, not commit adultery, remain sexually pure, amongst a million other things as well.

So when I look at what it means to be a "good Christian" (or a good/decent human being) I see it as the summation of all of those things.

The Church - however - I believe has gone in a direction where sexual purity/chastity is the litmus test of faith. I could be wrong (I often am) - but I think that if you were to get a give a gut reaction test to most Christians - if they had the choice between a child who acted selfishly/experienced occasional road rage/cursed others but remained a virgin until marriage...or a person who was relatively pious in all aspects but had a few pre-marital sexual partners - most Christians would opt for the virginal jerk.

Maybe they'd give it a double take or two to try and *NOT* have that reaction - but I do think that's the knee-jerk reaction the faith has come to. It's kind of like "Well, the rest of Christianity is just too difficult and all encompassing - but I can easily talk about keeping it in my pants - so let's focus on that and pretend it means we're keeping some sort of covenant."

I do honestly think that's what it's come to...and it's that sort of simplicity of faith (and I believe shortsightedness) that my rebellious feelings come from. I'd rather have a daughter that followed Him, that helped the poor, that was generous with the sick, that cared for the needy - but messed around with a boyfriend or two before marriage than someone who tipped the scales in the other way. The sum of their actions makes the former a better person (and more Godly) in my eyes.

---

Getting off that though - and to the other point that VG made...

I think there's a misunderstanding of why I am focusing on school -> career -> marriage -> kids. I'm not saying that because I'm trying to advise my daughter on how to live a more "comfortable" lifestyle - or so that she can have nicer things. I'm not choosing to advise her on that so that she can have a brand new Mercedes instead of having to "settle" for a used Toyota Tercel. That's not the issue whatsoever.

I'm also not approaching it from the standpoint of trying to avoid financial struggles that might bond people together through shared experience... It's not advice being given in the hopes to "avoid being poor when you're just starting out" or deny the benefits that could be had by a couple making a go of it together.

The issue is whether or not she's capable of going it alone - which I want her to be able to do.

If God were to come to me and say "Hey, this is a good guy. He will treat your daughter with love. They will persevere together. He will be unto her as Christ is unto the church - etc." then I would feel far differently. But the fact is - there are a lot of douchebags out there - and there's the very real possibility my daughter might end up with one.

...and I do not want her to ever feel beholden to a situation with someone that harms her out of the feeling of lack of options.

School -> Career -> Marriage -> Children in my eyes is the best way to avoid that.

Every day we hear people arguing politically about how people make mistakes in life and therefore aren't "entitled" to a living wage. We hear people talking about how minimum wage isn't meant to be a living wage. How people should have prepared better beforehand...blah blah.

Well - that's the reality of our world - and in that light - I'll be darned if I'm going to advise her in a manner that might end up with her being 30+ years old with no skills/no education - having to decide between staying with an abusive partner and/or having to figure out how to get by on a sub-living-wage/below poverty line salary with kids in tow.

No - I want her to have options - and be beholden to no situation out of fear.

 

[akmom]

True - albeit doesn't really detract from the idea that your focus/first concern being pre-marital sex in the context of "school -> career -> marriage -> children" is just bizarre.

Not really. If a young person is mentally preoccupied with finding a partner, then maybe that's because they are at a stage in life where they are ready for one. You can specify any aspect of that you want (sex, romance, companionship), but I think naturally they all kind of come together as a package. When you tell a young person to suppress that impulse and focus on education, when maybe they don't really have the ambition or maturity to succeed at school yet, you run a risk. They might choose a field of study that isn't useful, or they might do poorly in school because they're not motivated, or they might spend a large sum of money on classes they don't pass or a degree they won't finish. Maybe even have student loan debt. And then, when they finally do get that piece of paper in Classical Literature, they might find that there aren't a lot of people left in the dating pool. My brother is 25 and the pickings are slim... in terms of selection, he is looking at people who are single for a reason (failed relationships that produced kids, substance abuse histories, or women who were actually motivated to pursue higher education and therefore won't want someone like him anyway).

I mean, if your daughter wants to pursue higher education right away, then chances are she'll later meet a guy who did the same. But if it turns out she wasn't really motivated, and floundered around taking creative writing classes until she got enough credits to graduate, then she probably isn't going to relate that much to the kind of men who were there because they were actually passionate about school.

I don't know. It's good advice, it really is. But either way it seems like you're force-fitting a life plan that might not actually be a good match developmentally. And maybe it's society that is constructed wrong, and if you're going to be successful in it, you kind of have to fit that mold. I guess I've seen most of my graduating class get decent jobs, college or not (and yes, there's a difference in income, but most people do have living wages). The ones with "McJobs" ran into substance abuse or other issues that held them back, other than simply having kids. And I have to say, a single mom with kids is not an easy situation for anyone - college or not. I'm sure it helps, but I don't think it's some magic ticket out of financial hardship.

 

[Hetta]

I think there's a misunderstanding of why I am focusing on school -> career -> marriage -> kids. I'm not saying that because I'm trying to advise my daughter on how to live a more "comfortable" lifestyle - or so that she can have nicer things. I'm not choosing to advise her on that so that she can have a brand new Mercedes instead of having to "settle" for a used Toyota Tercel. That's not the issue whatsoever.

I'm also not approaching it from the standpoint of trying to avoid financial struggles that might bond people together through shared experience... It's not advice being given in the hopes to "avoid being poor when you're just starting out" or deny the benefits that could be had by a couple making a go of it together.

The issue is whether or not she's capable of going it alone - which I want her to be able to do.

If God were to come to me and say "Hey, this is a good guy. He will treat your daughter with love. They will persevere together. He will be unto her as Christ is unto the church - etc." then I would feel far differently. But the fact is - there are a lot of douchebags out there - and there's the very real possibility my daughter might end up with one.

...and I do not want her to ever feel beholden to a situation with someone that harms her out of the feeling of lack of options.

School -> Career -> Marriage -> Children in my eyes is the best way to avoid that.

Every day we hear people arguing politically about how people make mistakes in life and therefore aren't "entitled" to a living wage. We hear people talking about how minimum wage isn't meant to be a living wage. How people should have prepared better beforehand...blah blah.

Well - that's the reality of our world - and in that light - I'll be darned if I'm going to advise her in a manner that might end up with her being 30+ years old with no skills/no education - having to decide between staying with an abusive partner and/or having to figure out how to get by on a sub-living-wage/below poverty line salary with kids in tow.

No - I want her to have options - and be beholden to no situation out of fear.

I am glad that you changed your icon to Libertarian Ezoo, because you are so not a Republican. That aside ... I agree with you entirely.

The whole "promise ring" thing is not healthy at all. I read a blog about that, perhaps one that MKGal posted? The whole church was invested in that girl's virginity and that is wrong on SO many levels.

For parents to be involved at all in their kids' sexuality is not healthy either. It is one thing with a younger child to teach them about biblical precepts, but when they become teens, telling them "just don't do it, because God" doesn't really work. You have to have more honest, direct, open conversations with them, because they know - and you know - that ultimately it will their decision whether they wait or not, not yours. (Obviously I am not talking about 13 year olds having sex, as that is not healthy either.)

My advice to my kids as they have gotten older has been about treating the other person with respect, not getting in too deep, and not being promiscuous. We have had very intense conversations on these topics, and my elder two kids who are dating - one of whom is getting married next year - have both only dated two people and are in committed relationships with long term partners. As I said the older one is getting married next year to his GF of 4 years. The other one has been with the same girl for over a year and is talking in terms of marriage - but not until they both graduate from college. It is fairly likely that they will have sex before then, but that's none of my business as they are both adults, and not something I care to dwell upon, because it's creepy to do so.

All of these 'kids' (adults really) are mature and intelligent. The younger couple are church goers and actually very committed to their church. That son is the "love Jesus, hate church" child of infamy. The older couple does not, but they are both Christians.

I'm pretty happy with the way that the kids are turning out so far. They have never done any harm to members of the opposite sex, they aren't abusers, and they are very faithful, stalwart partners. I have high hopes for the remainder of my brood when they also date.

 

[.chrys.]

Perhaps the key is to raise up a child who is focused on education first, marriage second. A mental preoccupation can be trained.

 

[Inkachu]

I got a response back that kinda surprised me (albeit also in fairness it kinda didn't) - with someone asking me...

"Premarital sex? Or do you expect 10 years of celibacy after her period starts?" blah blah.

What kind of bone-headed and totally ungodly response is that??

I wonder if they realize how insulting that is to the child in question. "You're obviously a hormonal animal with no self control who's going to be a disappointment, so let's just be preemptive and do some damage control now, before you wreck your life, k?"

Kids rise to the level of expectation. Problem is, we've stopped expecting squat from our kids. (I'm talking society here, not anyone on CF in particular). We don't expect good grades, hard work, honesty, integrity, and GOD FORBID that they keep their pants on until they're adults.

Pitiful and disgusting.

 

[DZoolander]

I am glad that you changed your icon to Libertarian Ezoo, because you are so not a Republican. That aside ... I agree with you entirely.

The whole "promise ring" thing is not healthy at all. I read a blog about that, perhaps one that MKGal posted? The whole church was invested in that girl's virginity and that is wrong on SO many levels.

For parents to be involved at all in their kids' sexuality is not healthy either. It is one thing with a younger child to teach them about biblical precepts, but when they become teens, telling them "just don't do it, because God" doesn't really work. You have to have more honest, direct, open conversations with them, because they know - and you know - that ultimately it will their decision whether they wait or not, not yours. (Obviously I am not talking about 13 year olds having sex, as that is not healthy either.)

My advice to my kids as they have gotten older has been about treating the other person with respect, not getting in too deep, and not being promiscuous. We have had very intense conversations on these topics, and my elder two kids who are dating - one of whom is getting married next year - have both only dated two people and are in committed relationships with long term partners. As I said the older one is getting married next year to his GF of 4 years. The other one has been with the same girl for over a year and is talking in terms of marriage - but not until they both graduate from college. It is fairly likely that they will have sex before then, but that's none of my business as they are both adults, and not something I care to dwell upon, because it's creepy to do so.

All of these 'kids' (adults really) are mature and intelligent. The younger couple are church goers and actually very committed to their church. That son is the "love Jesus, hate church" child of infamy. The older couple does not, but they are both Christians.

I'm pretty happy with the way that the kids are turning out so far. They have never done any harm to members of the opposite sex, they aren't abusers, and they are very faithful, stalwart partners. I have high hopes for the remainder of my brood when they also date.

Re: The Republican -> Libertarian switch...ehhh...old habits die hard...lol

Growing up I belonged to the Young Republicans, was totally into Reagan when I was a young teen/etc... But as I've gotten older - I've found that the GOP has moved far beyond anything that I'm comfortable with. I figured given my level of disgust with them for the past 24-25 years - the fact I haven't voted for a single GOP candidate in the past 18 years (out of protest/etc) - it was about time I just made the switch.

I agree with you completely on the stuff about virginity/how to handle your kids/etc. My intention is to teach my daughter (and son) the same types of lessons you're talking about - and then trust them to make their own good choices.

The alternative just strikes me as wrong and creepy. For example - I saw that there's some new trend in churches for young girls to promise their virginity to their fathers until they get married - and they have all sorts of mock weddings/ceremonies between father/daughter where they make all sorts of promises like that.

Sorry - but that is just creepy as heck. It reminds me of that scene in Yentil where the husband comes popping out the window holding up a bloody sheet the morning after his/her wedding to the cheers of everyone down below...but with the father now being involved and/or cheering it along.

Nope - no interest in that kind of nonsense over here.

 

[Hetta]

The alternative just strikes me as wrong and creepy. For example - I saw that there's some new trend in churches for young girls to promise their virginity to their fathers until they get married - and they have all sorts of mock weddings/ceremonies between father/daughter where they make all sorts of promises like that.

Sorry - but that is just creepy as heck. It reminds me of that scene in Yentil where the husband comes popping out the window holding up a bloody sheet the morning after his/her wedding to the cheers of everyone down below...but with the father now being involved and/or cheering it along.

Oh good gracious me. A girl's virginity does not belong to her father any more than a son's belongs to the mother. That is just nasty thinking.

 

[Inkachu]

Yes, that IS creepy, and gross, and over the top! Men have "owned" women's bodies and choices and lives for far too long, and this certainly isn't helping bring them into the 21st century

And FWIW I'm still a registered Republican, even though I agree that much of the party has gone off the deep end, or just refuses to come out of the 1950's, but they're still much more in line with my core beliefs than the Democrat party. I probably fall into some small side party if I were to really think about it, but since our voting choices in any sizable election still fall to either Republican or Democrat, I feel like going in and voting for some small-party candidate who has zero chance of winning... is like wasting my vote.

 

[DZoolander]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnRIk5bHe58

 

[Hetta]

Is this where I re-post that awful video of fully grown adults "kissing" for the first time at their wedding?

I have to put kissing in quotes. <shudder>

 

[DZoolander]

lol sure - that's always a good one

 

[Inkachu]

NO, please don't post that video!!! I was scarred for life... *curls up in the fetal position and rocks back and forth*

 

[technofox]

In a perfect world premarital sex wouldn't happen, but this isn't a perfect world. My wife and I are having our first kid, and we are pretty much on the same page with EZ.

You have to look at the facts of the modern era:
1. When scripture was written, people were getting hitched earlier in life. Fast forward to today and people aren't getting married until their 30s or later in life.

2. Today's society delays one's ability to able to afford to raise a family due to higher educational requirements, this delaying careers, thus delaying ability to raise a family.

3. Even with self control, how many of us have given into temptation? (Be honest, how many were on diets and desired that snickers bar?)

4. Most people are going to have sex at some point. It's a matter of when, not if.

Personally I will go with school -> career -> marriage -> family. My kids will be taught to use contraception with an emphasis on abstinence. Basically they are going to know that if they decide to go against the best option, then at least reduce allow them to know how to reduce their risks.

I don't want my kid on teen mom, because I lived in the make believe world of abstinence only teaching works. It doesn't work, which is why having your kid have a fall back plan, is best. Would we prefer them waiting until marriage? Yes, but we are realistic about life. We know things aren't perfect, that is why if you sky dive, you not only have a primary parachute, but also an emergency parachute. Abstinence is your primary, contraceptions are your emergency parachute.

I don't understand why people teach only abstinence and then find their daughter pregnant or their son knocked up someone's daughter. Areas that practice abstinence only teaching have higher rates of teen pregnancies than those that don't. A sad fact of how well it works.

 

[DZoolander]

I'll be honest - I think that people pick and choose which "sin" they want to obsess on - and for some reason modern Christianity seems to choose to obsess on sex stuff far more than anything else. When I was a kid though, I decided to choose to focus on other things, because I saw the sex issues as crazy-making stuff.

As I've gotten older - my point of view hasn't really changed - and I see little evidence to convince me that I'm wrong in that perception of what others choose to focus on. Rarely have I ever seen another Christian say...

"Ya know - I was reading Matthew 5:21 - and I really feel like I'm letting God down/disappointing Him every time I get angry at other drivers on the road...etc. I really feel like I'm putting my mortal soul in jeopardy because I flipped another driver the bird."

Nor do you see thousands of people getting together to congregate into stadiums to promise to be more patient with each other, to be more loving with each other, etc...

But - involve a wiener in the equation - and everybody loses their minds. That's something to rally around.

Ehhh - I just choose to focus on the other thousand issues that faith/morality tries to address If that means putting sex stuff on the backburner relative to everything else - where it gets little more consequence - then so be it. I actually think that's how it's supposed to be.